Petrol at $3 a litre

What will cost $3 a litre, require car-pooling, the permanent military occupation of Iraq and oil drilling on the Great Barrier Reef? Petrol, according to experts who have been contemplating its future in an oil-poor Australia.

In Sydney, it might mean a real estate crash and a long recession.

These are some of the consequences, experts say, if Australia does not wean itself off a diminishing supply of fossil fuels.

World oil prices surged yesterday after a Goldman Sachs study warned of a possible "super spike" in prices to above $US100 a barrel. Last week the average price of fuel in Australia hit an all-time high of 106.4 cents a litre. Crude oil prices have risen 500 per cent since 1999.

Last year the world used about 30 billion barrels of oil - the equivalent of draining Sydney Harbour 10 times - and consumption is growing as fast as the economies of China and India.

....

According to the CIA, world oil reserves will last for about another 35 years at current demand levels. But demand growth is outstripping new finds and eating into the future.

....
It is a creeping drought that never ends. Last financial year, Australia recorded its lowest crude oil output in 20 years, with production falling 16 per cent on 2002-03. "The consumption of crude oil and condensate in 2003 could be sustained by remaining economic reserves for only 11.3 years," said Geoscience Australia.

....

Meanwhile, as the crisis looms, Australia is busily shipping what remains of our oil and gas overseas as fast as tankers can carry it. Recent deals worth tens of billions of dollars will give China and South Korea guaranteed access to output from the North West Shelf for up to 30 years.
Americans, who consume a quarter of the world's oil output, are being told Australian gas is the answer.

"Chevron Texaco is working with governments and partner companies to secure the largest deposits of natural gas in Australia for shipment to the US," said an advertisement in the New Yorker this year. "A steady supply of cleaner fuel to light our homes and keep us warm? Sounds like a lot of g'days to come."

Source: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Get-your-foot-off-the-gas--its-black-gold/2005/04/01/1112302240840.html


The article is a little overblown, there is the potential to discover some more oil and gas reserves and push back the depletion date.

Gas-to-Liquid technologies offer the promise of turning natural gas into oil for lighter fuels provided prices go a bit higher. Particularly handy in Australia where predominantly we find gas (but there are some major unexplored regions as yet).

Equally it could go the other way - the depletion date provided by the CIA is vague anyway - it's unclear how much reserves the Saudis have left, it's a national secret. However if you look at their spending in the last five years you could reasonably anticipate a near-future precipitous fall in their oil pumping.

Major oil companies have all been regularly downgrading the level of their reserves, and new exploration has been slow to discover material levels of reserves. Remember with over 70 Million barrels of oil a day used by the world at the moment, a material discovery realistically has to provide at least a global year's worth of oil - or at least 25 Billion barrels of oil. We've found only a handful of fields of that size in drilling history.

It's definitely not April Fool's day anymore.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Caveat: I do have interests in oil and gas exploration. please look into the research yourselves.
 
Americans, who consume a quarter of the world's oil output, are being told Australian gas is the answer.

Oh, what poppycock. Answer? Please, it's a band-aid solution...

Steps off soap box... :p

The answer is mastering the combustion of hydrogen, and making hydrogen fuel cells economically feasible. Heck, we've already got experimental Perth buses running on them now.

The answer is building environmentally-friendly, fossil-free power stations, including wind power, solar power and those beaut' German-designed EnviroMission Solar Towers.

The answer is weaning this country off of oil, gas, and coal.
 
Merovingian said:
The answer is building environmentally-friendly, fossil-free power stations, including wind power, solar power and those beaut' German-designed EnviroMission Solar Towers.
.

These are just an amazing thing, bigger than any of the proposed highest skyscrapers. Will it happen? Project too big for governments to do, takes longer than an election cycle.
 
Last edited:
Small solar towers were built and run successfully for many years in the 80's in the both the USA and Spain

Here is an article which has some more info on the Australian project.
It says that 2009 is the planned completion date.
My favourite part of the article is:
EnviroMission and SBP estimate the cost of their first 200-megawatt solar thermal tower at $670m, and say the cost of subsequent towers would fall. An engineering infrastructure, materials manufacturing plants and trained workforce would be in place and the design and construction would have been refined.

The initial cost is comparable with the $600m cost of building a new 200MW brown-coal power station and a drying plant for the coal, which is nearly 70% water by weight. A 200MW black-coal power station in Queensland would cost $440m. These prices ignore the unknown environmental and health costs of greenhouse gas, sulphur and particulate emissions from coal-fired power stations.

Each solar tower would abate between 920,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions annually from fossil fuels.
Enviromission is listed on the ASX
 
Merovingian,

I suggest you investigate the feasibility of widespread use of hydrogen cells. (here are good places to start http://www.idatech.com/technology/fuel_processors.html, http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html)

You'll find that we're certainly not there yet and due to the physical properties of Hydrogen, may never get there. There's substantially more energy required to create store and transport the hydrogen for cells than people realise, meaning that energy consumption would increase dramatically. PLUS it's substantially cheaper to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels than from water...which leaves us ironically using even more oil, gas and coal in a hydrogen fuelled economy than in a purely fossil fuel based economy.

Better alternatives are synthetic liquid hydrocarbons, such as methanol or the natural variety ethanol.

And don't forget that we'll still need a good substitute for jet fuel!


Maniyak,

Are you aware of the solar tower planned for NSW?
Originally it was to be 1km tall - however latest developments have made it feasible at a smaller scale (in Vic), which will be used to prove the concept.

You should also look into the geothermal work being done here and overseas....50,000 years worth of electricity for all of Australia from one hot rock! Very promising, but challenging engineering.

Neither of these address transportation however. You still need effective batteries for storage, or to perfect a delivery grid (think bumper cars, slot racers or electricity transmission through the air).

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Aceyducey said:
Are you aware of the solar tower planned for NSW?

No I wasn't, just the VIC one, where is NSW ?

Clean and cheap electricty is an answer for transport. There are other methods of "electric" cars beside battery and fuel cell. Compressed air cars are really electric cars, as of course can be hyrodgen engined vehicles. These are just mediums for holding the energy derived from electric power plants.

Speaking of electric cars, who said they can't be fun!

http://www.commutercars.com/


0-60MPH in 4 secs
 
Aceyducey said:
Merovingian,

I suggest you investigate the feasibility of widespread use of hydrogen cells. (here are good places to start http://www.idatech.com/technology/fuel_processors.html, http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html)

You'll find that we're certainly not there yet and due to the physical properties of Hydrogen, may never get there. There's substantially more energy required to create store and transport the hydrogen for cells than people realise, meaning that energy consumption would increase dramatically. PLUS it's substantially cheaper to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels than from water...which leaves us ironically using even more oil, gas and coal in a hydrogen fuelled economy than in a purely fossil fuel based economy.

I am aware of the inefficiencies in the technology at the moment, hence my earlier statement:

Merovingian said:
...mastering the combustion of hydrogen, and making hydrogen fuel cells economically feasible.

In hindsight, I think I should have been more specific — economically feasible and efficient. My apologies. :eek:

Aceyducey said:
Better alternatives are synthetic liquid hydrocarbons, such as methanol or the natural variety ethanol.

Have you got some good links to offer on this subject? You've got me interested now. :)

Aceyducey said:
And don't forget that we'll still need a good substitute for jet fuel!

Hmmm, never though of that... :rolleyes:

Aceyducey said:
Are you aware of the solar tower planned for NSW?

It's proposed for a district called Buronga, for memory? :confused:
 
Out of petrol

This was taken from The Age online:

When Labor backbencher Andrew McNamara rose from his seat in the Queensland Parliament in February to state a few home truths about falling world oil supplies, he expected, at most, a few catcalls from the Opposition benches.

Instead, the speech by the provincial solicitor from Hervey Bay, north of Brisbane, "bounced around the world".

Although his words were little reported elsewhere in Australia, McNamara was inundated with congratulatory emails from all corners of the globe for addressing an issue that previously might have seen him labelled as a flat-earther.

The issue is Peak Oil, the theory that the world will face a sudden, cataclysmic decline in supplies after global production peaks, sometime in the next 20 years.

According to McNamara, who believes it's going to happen sooner rather than later, the direct impact on our lives will be greater than terrorism, global warming or bird flu.

"The challenges we face after Peak Oil will require localised food production and industry in a way not seen for 100 years," he says. "Local rail lines and fishing fleets will be vital to regional communities. Self-contained communities living close to work, farms, services and schools will not be merely desirable; they will be essential.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

A series of seemingly one-off events - a strike in Venezuela, the troubles of Russia's oil giant Yukos, civil unrest in Nigeria and even Hurricane Ivan hitting the south-eastern United States - have kept the pressure on prices.

But a hypersensitive market is also one of the symptoms forecast for when the world enters the twilight years of oil production. Then there's the war in Iraq.

"Iraq is just an ongoing disaster. There's continual sabotage of oil infrastructure. Production is down to 60 or 70 per cent of prewar levels," says Thurtell, referring to the nation with the world's second-largest reserves, and the one country where output could quickly be lifted were circumstances propitious.

Member nations of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) meeting in Iran last month agreed to boost production by a half-million barrels a day. But the world consumes about 82 million barrels daily and demand is growing at its fastest rate for more than two decades.

With their rigs and terminals operating above 90 per cent capacity, OPEC countries admit their once vaunted ability to manipulate prices by significantly boosting production is a thing of the past.

"OPEC has done all it can do," Qatar's Oil Minister, Abdullah al-Attiyah, said recently. "This is out of the control of OPEC."

Not everyone buys that line, but whether due to market machinations, genuine paucity or reckless consumption, the prices speak volumes. The oil industry bible Oil & Gas Journal says a series of oil shocks could unfold - we may be in the middle of one now - with more to come in 2010 and 2015.
"

It looks like ethanol will be the next big thing to help reduce dependence on foreign fuel imports.

E10 (ethanol blended fuel) is now available in Australia selling under the name of Evolve95.

It is currently being used in Europe, England, America, Japan, India and Brazil.

It is made from sugar or grain (90% petrol, 10% ethanol).

Henry Ford's Model T Ford was originally designed to run on ethanol.
 
Note that modern cars (all since the Model T) are NOT designed to run on ethanol and you are taking a risk by doing so.

Check your warranties & what the car maker says before running any ethanol/petrol mix in your vehicle.

BTW: 90% petrol and 10% ethanol won't make much of a dent in fossil fuel use anyway.

Biodiesel is better (usually at 80% diesel, 20% biodiesel but can go as high as 100% biodiesel in modified vehicles). It's in use in Newcastle (http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid1096.php), the ACT (only one vehicle) and a few other spots around Australia.

The government's decision on alternative fuel subsidies a few months ago knocked the prospects for ethanol and biodiesel for six though.

Merovingian, if you look at the first link I provided and read the attached PDF you'll find out a lot about ethanol and methanol :)

Also the NSW solar tower is now first being set up in Vic. It was originally planned in NSW, and they still have those plans, but they've had problems with funding and shelved the big NSW version until they have a working 'proof of concept', which will be the Vic one. Geothermal is in the same boat - the leading company involved in this in Australia is having funding issues and is looking at a much smaller proof of concept (http://www.geodynamics.com.au).

Ironically I'm involved indirectly with one geothermal player (owned by an resources & energy company) but I've refrained from getting directly involved in the alternative energy market.

As yet the indications I've had from investors is that they don't want to risk their money on unproven energy alternatives. Right now the interest is in oil and gas where there is proven demand and technologies to exploit discoveries (and a ready exit path).

I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love to pick up a few licenses for geothermal exploration in the future if there were enough investors willing to support this type of venture......There are some very interesting ones that haven't been grabbed yet. It's cheap to start, but there's considerable investment needed further down the track to realise the opportunity, which is where current companies have run into funding issues.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Wahahaha....

"From Washington to New Delhi, Caracas to Moscow and Beijing, national leaders and corporate executives are stepping up their efforts to gain control over major sources of oil and natural gas as the global struggle for energy intensifies.

Never has the competitive pursuit of untapped oil and gas reserves been so acute, and never has so much money as well as diplomatic and military muscle been deployed in the contest to win control over major foreign stockpiles of energy.

To an unprecedented degree, a government's success or failure in these endeavors is being treated as headline news, and provoking public outcry when a rival power is seen as benefiting unfairly from a particular transaction.

With the officials of numerous governments coming under mounting pressure to satisfy the needs of their individual countries - at whatever cost - the battle for energy can only become more inflamed in the years ahead."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Asian_Economy/GE18Dk01.html

It won't stop at $3....

And the other side:

Earlier this year, Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said his country would become the world's largest producer of renewable energy. Brazil generates 43.8 percent of its power from renewable energy sources, including hydroelectricity, ethanol and biodiesel, according to Agencia Brasil, a government communications division.

http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67523,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Merovingian said:
The answer is weaning this country off of oil, gas, and coal.
No so easy! A bit like saying the answer to world food shortages is to wean people off food. True, Aussies and Yanks could reduce their consumption and waste, as they can with petroleum, but in the grand scheme of things it would be immaterial.

I can present no supporting figures but I'd suggest that over 90% of oil is bought and paid for by commercial enterprises for commercial use and these poeple have been trying to reduce their consumption for years. The only large scale commercial, but "discretionary" use I can think of quickly is the airline industry.

One large scale use which is definitely not discretionary is in agriculture. How will broad-acre farming survive $3l fuel? We could not allow food production to fall off so rationing would be needed which put massive strains on the non-farming sectors.

The only proven technology which can reduce our oil dependence to any useful degree is the nuclear cycle. Even a couple of our Luddite state Labor governments are starting to wake up to this. China knows it must go that way because they cannot burn ever increasing amounts of coal with it's inherent pollution.

But don't worry about drilling the Reef. Greenhouse has doomed it anyway
:(

Thommo
 
Thommo said:
No so easy! A bit like saying the answer to world food shortages is to wean people off food. True, Aussies and Yanks could reduce their consumption and waste, as they can with petroleum, but in the grand scheme of things it would be immaterial.

Agreed, it isn't easy. In fact, due to human nature, I would rate it nigh impossible. :)

It was meant to be a somewhat cynical statement... :eek: :p
 
Hi Guys

Thought I would let you know that petrol 91 octane is NZ$1.31.9. Diesel is NZ93.9c/l and no sign of it going back down either. :eek:

Regards
 
jym said:
Hi Guys

Thought I would let you know that petrol 91 octane is NZ$1.31.9. Diesel is NZ93.9c/l and no sign of it going back down either. :eek:

Regards

Wow! Diesel here is AUD0.40 dearer! We're paying up to AUD1.20 for Diesel! :eek:
 
luckyone said:
In Canberra, I haven't seen it under AUD1.23 for some time.
In what part of Canberra? Leadfree was $1.039 two days ago (it would have been .999 if I'd been shopping at a certain supermarket).
 
Hi All

I believe like Acey we are in for some real pain in the next few years as fuel costs verus alternative fuels/better technology comes on line.

In Australia we don’t like very much being told what to do re public verus private transport, where to live etc..

But all this come to balance so as the cost goes up, more will buy smaller/hybrid cars, travel locally and get their entertainment on-line. We all are doing it now.

It is not the end of the world but perhaps the beginning. Considering the massive impact on our very existence from Global Warming the sooner we all pay $3 a litre the better, you could say.

Peter 147
 
Peter 147 said:
the sooner we all pay $3 a litre the better, you could say.

Petrol at at even $5 a litre is no better than applying lipstick to a Turd and calling it a Supermodel.

It's all fiddling at the edges. We're completely stuffed, the environment and climate are already beyond repair.

The best thing that could happen to humanity at this point is a dirty great volcano exploding somewhere. The world plunged into a volcanic winter, hopefully killing 3/4 of the population and forcing the survivors back into our past - small communities of people eeking out an existence thru subsistence farming and hunter/gathering. Nothing else would see the majority of plant and animal species that have managed to survive thus far continuing to survive and nothing else will save humanity from itself.
 
Back
Top