what is 12am, or 12pm??

anyone.....
i constantly see this referred to, even by gov.departments.

i would think it should be 12noon, or 12midnight, or 1200hrs or 0000hrs or similar. i used to use 2359hrs in former job, it MADE SENSE.

what annoys me most, is these people expect me to be moronic enough to know what 12am or 12pm is.

am i just a freak...or does anyone sympathise??
 
You've already covered it but service leave passes expired @ 00.01.

"Airscrews" became "propellers" when people, not metal showed up, or vice versa.
 
12PM is midnight. 12:01AM is one minute after.

But when I write down the time I use "noon"- especially in a food environment, where it must be absolutely clear what time a food was prepared, and therefore when it must be thrown out by.
 
It is quite simple. I reckon if you use it a while it will soon roll off your tongue without even thinking about it.

M stands for Meridian or midday or even noon for our American friends. A means Ante Meridian or before midday. P means Post or after midday.

Therefore from midnight to noon is AM and Noon to midnight is PM .

My 9 yr old has got the hang of it - shame we have to dumb down the english language because people wont take the time to think things through and learn simple concepts.
 
You are quite right Geoff. I failed to cover two split seconds of every day.

Let me endeavour to rectify that.

12 am and 12 pm are meaningless points that divide the day. At one second past Noon or 12.00.01 it becomes pm, same as one second past midnight is AM.

Still not very satisfactory...

From google:

Each and every day begins exactly at midnight, and each A.M. begins precisely thereafter. Similarly, each P.M. begins immediately after noon. No meaning can be assigned to 12:00 A.M. (00:00 A.M.), or to 12:00 P.M. (00:00 P.M.). They are merely reference points meant to simplify timetables for us.

From Wikipedia:

The 12-hour clock is a timekeeping convention in which the 24 hours of the day are divided into two periods called ante meridiem (am, Latin for "before noon") and post meridiem (pm, Latin for "after noon"). Each period consists of 12 hours numbered 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. The am period runs from midnight to noon, while the pm period runs from noon to midnight.

The 12-hour clock is especially common in Australia and the United States of America. It is also commonly used, alongside the 24-hour clock, in Canada (except for Quebec, which uses the 24-hour clock), the United Kingdom, some other English-speaking regions, some of the Spanish-speaking regions of South America, Albania and Greece. The Latin abbreviations "A.M." and "P.M." are used in English and Spanish.

According to the actual meaning of the terms ante meridiem (am) and post meridiem (pm), as well as standards bodies such as the National Institute of Standards and Technology in the United States, 12:00 or noon (another word for meridiem) is neither am nor pm, because noon is neither before nor after itself.

Despite this strict logic, it is common practice in the United States to designate noon as 12:00 pm. This has been justified as a convention because the hour from 12:01 pm through 12:59 pm comes immediately afterwards (or post) the meridiem. Following this logic further, midnight is designated as 12:00 am. These conventions nevertheless can be confusing, because the hour immediately following 11:00 am is noon, not midnight.

As a result of the confusion (and technical inaccuracy) of these conventions, it is clearest if one refers to "noon" or "12:00 noon" (rather than to 12:00 pm) if one wishes to express a reference to midday. References to midnight remain problematic because its usage could refer either to the midnight at the start of the day referenced or the midnight at its end. (This problem occurs even if one employs the inaccurate and confusing term 12:00 am). It is therefore best to employ additional context clues to indicate timing in such circumstances.

Some style policies suggest "12:00 n" for noon and "12:00 m" for midnight, but this conflicts with the older tradition of using "12:00 m" for noon (Latin meridies), and "12:00 mn" for midnight (media nox). It also does nothing to correct the ambiguity inherent in references to midnight without additional context clues.

Because of the confusion possible with midnight, some legal contracts start or end at 12:01 am, which removes the uncertainty. Similarly, airplane and train schedules avoid midnight, using 11:59 pm for arrivals and 12:01 am for departures.

The 24-hour clock avoids such ambiguities.

Does this help somewhat? Regardless of my inability to put this across in any meaningful way the convention is that 12am is midnight and 12pm is midday.

Sleep well,
 
However some more searching finds me a Physicist that supports Ricardo's original suggestion.

Are noon and midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.?

This is perhaps the trickiest time question of them all. The best answer is that the terms 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. cause confusion and should not be used.

To illustrate this, consider that "a.m." and "p.m." are abbreviations for "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem." They mean "before noon" and "after noon," respectively. Of course, noon is neither before nor after noon; it is simply noon. Therefore, neither the "a.m." nor "p.m." designation is correct. On the other hand, midnight is both 12 hours before noon and 12 hours after noon. Therefore, either 12 a.m. or 12 p.m. could work as a designation for midnight, but both would be ambiguous.

To get around the problem, the terms 12 noon and 12 midnight should be used instead of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. For example, a bank might be open on Saturday from 8 a.m. to noon. Or, a grocery store might be open daily until midnight. If you are making schedules, times such as 12:01 a.m. (one minute after midnight), or 11:59 p.m. (one minute before midnight) also can eliminate ambiguity. This method is used by the railroads and airlines.


So I must withdraw my comments as there appears to be a logical reason why noon and midnight should be adopted rather than 12pm and 12am respectively. The point being that noon is neither before or after noon - it is simply noon. And even more confusing is that to extend that logic midnight is both 12am and 12pm.

But to avoid being pedantic and trying to change convention let me remind you that am means everything before noon and pm everything after. Convention has it that 12.01pm (and hence 12pm) is noon.

Getting close to 12am now so I better hit the rack...or is that 12pm?
 
Simon,

Very interesting indeed. I've always adopted the convention of midnight being 12am as the minutes belong to the hour (as you posted earlier), so I assume given its 12:01am a minute later, then 12:00am works for me. Similarly at noon its 12:00pm since 12:01pm belongs to that hour designation.

It wouldn't really make sense to count like this would it:

11:58pm
11:59pm
12:00pm
12:01am
12:02am

Makes much more sense as:

11:58pm
11:59pm
12:00am
12:01am
12:02am

Having read the definitions of post and ante, it is a moot point as neither is either. But, as a convention, it works for me...

Oh yeah, and my automatic watering system thinks 12:00am is midnight so I MUST be right!! :D

PS. No, I don't actually use my automatic watering system now that we're in stage 3 water restrictions... :eek: And the fact that its set to go off at midnight should not be used as an argument in favour of my being not completely truthful here either.

Cheers,
Michael.
 
With me being such a pedant I will now be referring to midnight and noon from here. Apparently midday is not even correct as it refers to the early afternoon hours between Noon and 3pm.

Life is so hard when you are a stickler for grammar.....
 
that was my point simon....
why should life be hard for me just coz im smart enough to know too much about am and pm and to know there's no such thing as 12am or 12pm :) hence i get confused.

i see a freeway sign saying "roadworks, 12am to 8pm".
im still stuffed if i know.
i wonder about the other 500,000 people who'd travel that freeway. i suspect to them its easy, simply means noon-8pm and they dont even understand my query......
 
Ricardo29 said:
i see a freeway sign saying "roadworks, 12am to 8pm".
im still stuffed if i know.
i wonder about the other 500,000 people who'd travel that freeway. i suspect to them its easy, simply means noon-8pm and they dont even understand my query......
You see, now for me that should be 12pm to 8pm! Makes more sense I reckon... ;)

Cheers,
Michael.
 
Great discussion.. learnt heaps.. thanks! :) I'm going to force people to use the words "Noon" and "midnight" when I can now..
 
Simon said:
I think you missed the whole point.....apparently there is no 12am or 12 pm.

Okay then the
12 that follows 11.59am is 12 pm
(because it is 12:01 and 1 second. Once it ticks over to 1 second past 12 it is pm, the afternoon)

12 that follows 11.59pm is 12am
(because it is 12:01 and 1 second. Once it ticks over to 1 second past 12 it is am, very early hours of the morning)

Will we talk about whether zero is an even or an odd number next? :D
 
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