When will you stop?

We have enough properties that the properties run as a business.

We recently (2011 2012) extended our cashflow (and profit) by purchasing 12 properties in the USA.

I am over owning anymore residential properties simply because of the property maintenance issues and all the paperwork.

I am looking to add a Commercial investment to the mix. Has to be the right return.

I will keep investing when we have sufficient cash built up. Our debt is negligible.

Cheers
 
Do you mind sharing what other assets you have working for you? I am guessing some stocks with good dividends perhaps?

I am 100% stock market, I employed various techniques to continually bring the cash in week in week out, (dividend, capital gain and options premium)...

I think properties investment is ok but I dont like it because of the hassle, you deal with agents, tenants, maintenance plus buy and sell is another hassle on its own.

I have enough hassle buying PPOR and changing PPOR, multiple that by a few more no thanks :)

and one thing I particularly dislike about properties is price transparency...

nothing beat stock market price transparency ...if the stock
is trade at $1.00 I know I can sell for $1.00 or within 1-2% depend if I want to exit that minute or not.

If people like properties and can deal with the headache I think with proper management of debt and risk they can do well out of it.

it all really depend where your skills lies, some people may excel at properties buy/sell process and/or development.

Early on I decided to excel in stock market and I deliberately went down that path to gain knowledge and experience from people who went before me...

I am doing reasonably well out if it in virtually all cycle plus it doesn't takes up much of my time any more... Initially yes, I did a lot of reading, learning a lot of fundamental but it is now my second language...

I know all the lingo, the spins, the ********, the hype and the market dynamics so it doesn't take me much time to identify good stocks or employ certain techniques to yield profit.

sum up I want high return hassle free investment and after a decade of hard work I now has attained that level ... stress free, hassle free investment and enjoy life.

PS: one thing I also notice as you get bigger with stock market as in money and portfolio wise it becomes easier and doesnt require more work but with Residential properties as you get more and more of it, it consume more of your time and more work.

don't take this as shares vs properties, I don't wish to engage in that fight, just IMHO and you can do well out of both they all have pro/cons ...
 
I am 100% stock market, I employed various techniques to continually bring the cash in week in week out, (dividend, capital gain and options premium)...

I think properties investment is ok but I dont like it because of the hassle, you deal with agents, tenants, maintenance plus buy and sell is another hassle on its own.

I have enough hassle buying PPOR and changing PPOR, multiple that by a few more no thanks :)

and one thing I particularly dislike about properties is price transparency...

nothing beat stock market price transparency ...if the stock
is trade at $1.00 I know I can sell for $1.00 or within 1-2% depend if I want to exit that minute or not.

If people like properties and can deal with the headache I think with proper management of debt and risk they can do well out of it.

it all really depend where your skills lies, some people may excel at properties buy/sell process and/or development.

Early on I decided to excel in stock market and I deliberately went down that path to gain knowledge and experience from people who went before me...

I am doing reasonably well out if it in virtually all cycle plus it doesn't takes up much of my time any more... Initially yes, I did a lot of reading, learning a lot of fundamental but it is now my second language...

I know all the lingo, the spins, the ********, the hype and the market dynamics so it doesn't take me much time to identify good stocks or employ certain techniques to yield profit.

sum up I want high return hassle free investment and after a decade of hard work I now has attained that level ... stress free, hassle free investment and enjoy life.

PS: one thing I also notice as you get bigger with stock market as in money and portfolio wise it becomes easier and doesnt require more work but with Residential properties as you get more and more of it, it consume more of your time and more work.

don't take this as shares vs properties, I don't wish to engage in that fight, just IMHO and you can do well out of both they all have pro/cons ...

This is interesting, as we are 95% property at the moment.
Any downside protection if sudden events destroy the market?
 
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I think you are right in saying it does take a lot of work to learn the ropes, and especially with the stock market.
In terms of exposure to risk, do you see a scenario where property values would fall and shares would remain rather unaffected? - It would be interesting to get the opinion of someone like you who primarily focuses on the stock market.

Cheers :)
 
This is interesting, as we are 95% property at the moment.
Any downside protection if sudden events destroy the market?

My understanding is there are quite a few things you can do to hedge against sudden events.

Options for one. I believe there is even insurance.
 
My understanding is there are quite a few things you can do to hedge against sudden events.

Options for one. I believe there is even insurance.

Thanks.

May spend more time at the upcoming financial market expo rather than the property expo coming up in a couple of weeks.

A whole new game could bring some excitement back.
 
This is interesting, as we are 95% property at the moment.
Any downside protection if sudden events destroy the market?

I don't worry about the down side because I never put myself in the position where I have to sell during market crash... when that time comes I buy more of the same for less
one of the reason I stay debt free ... I can open my wallet when other people contract..A Warren Specialty I like to emulate

and there lies what I see differently from other people ...you are too focus on the market movement where as you should be focus on the business.

the keys is to have a decent understand of the business so that things like that should not scare you but present you with an opportunity to buy very good business at price you unlikely to get again for a long time.

this is the best quote from Benjamin Graham (most considered him to be the fore father of value investing and Warren Buffett great teacher)

'In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine.'

what he is saying is in the short term price will be determined by people moods, emotion, greed and fear but in the long run it reflect the business fundamental, as in if the business keep throw out earning and dividend and increase them in most case, the price of your stock WILL goes up as sure as the sun will rise the next day....

at the end of the day after all the greed and fear, noises, headlines cash flow matters...business that throw out lot of free cash flow and paid dividend they will deliver you substantial gain down the track.

so ONLY buy and hold strong fundamental business and ignore the rest (the hype, the boom, the new fashion etc...)

and read chapter 8 and chapter 20 from the Intelligent Investor by Ben Graham ... that is all you need from that book ...2 most valuable chapters...where he coverers the Margin of Safety and Mr Market Concept ..

not just read it but truly understand it and apply it to your stock buying decision.

what are some of the good business you may ask and in my opinion and I been monitoring successful investors portfolio and I discovered a simple secret ...they all buy a certain type of stocks ... FMCG stocks... it stands for Fast Moving Consumer Goods

as it goods or service people use every day in and out, rain, hail or shine and it require little capital to run and expand... not food producers ...they are bad business but

Woolies, Wesfarmers, KFC, Mcdonalds, Flight Centre, Coke, Veda, Dominos, Retail food Group, Navitas, Financial companies like banks and more ... these business require little money to run and expand and the result lot of free cash flow and the result lot of happy shareholders because the business keep throw them back all these free cash flow via dividend and the more earning and dividend you rack up the market will re-price you accordingly

no mining, no airlines, no car manufacturer etc...

take you a while to sink in what are all the good business... I can identify them
as soon as I read their business model or prospectus.....I dont understand the model or the business I don't invest in them, I don't care who invest in them even Warren Buffett...

Then it come down to how much I want to pay if its cheaper than I think it worth I load it up ...I don't care if the market crash tomorrow or the next year because I know the weighting machine is on my side.

with this principles you tend to make more in a crash as you snapped up all the good bargains and sell back
to other people in happier time and the cycle repeats itself every so often.

here is an exercise plot say nvt.ax or dmp.ax on finance.google.com click on 10 years charts and see anything happen to them during, before and after GFC :)

Weighting machine at work, have a dozen or two of these business What Crash? GFC isn't in its dictionaries
notes that banks do have cycles but generally very good business ...you just need to be comfortable to hold for long term or exit for profit at some point... banks I tend to make money and go and buy back later...
 
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Thanks.

May spend more time at the upcoming financial market expo rather than the property expo coming up in a couple of weeks.

A whole new game could bring some excitement back.

You should pick up these two:
The power curve
Options trading for the conservative investor

You don?t have to pay full price for the shares you want.

remember all brokers fund managers etc. get paid for you to trade, so be careful who you ask for advice, it will usually always come back to self interest.
 
PS: one thing I also notice as you get bigger with stock market as in money and portfolio wise it becomes easier and doesnt require more work but with Residential properties as you get more and more of it, it consume more of your time and more work.

I agree with this point.

Some years ago I used to buy in five figure parcels such as 1000 bhp shares but these days I tend to buy in six figure parcels such as 10000 bhp shares. This is not on margin but with savings. People often ask me how I sleep with six figure share purchases. Actually I am more comfortable with six figure parcels because I can get out quicker.

For example if I buy 10000 bhp shares and it rises a dollar, I have made 10000 dollars which does make a difference to one's life. At say $36 dollar a bhp share, I can often generate 10000 dollar gain within a day or two. If I was to use the equivalent amount 360k on a resi IP, I would need to wait much longer to get that same gain, net. Obviously I have managed to lose the same amount just as quickly.

However, if I buy 1000 bhp shares, I tend to hold on for much longer and hence increasing my exposure risk as I don't want to earn just 1000 dollars.

Some would argue that it is the percentage returns that matters but I would say that the absolute value of gain matters to me more so than the percentage.
 
For example if I buy 10000 bhp shares and it rises a dollar, I have made 10000 dollars which does make a difference to one's life. At say $36 dollar a bhp share, I can often generate 10000 dollar gain within a day or two. If I was to use the equivalent amount 360k on a resi IP, I would need to wait much longer to get that same gain, net. Obviously I have managed to lose the same amount just as quickly.

So you buy BHP at $36 and sell it when it gets to $37-$38 and pocket the 50c to $1 profit after-tax, and you do this frequently to build up your profits?

Is this your main shares strategy?
 
So you buy BHP at $36 and sell it when it gets to $37-$38 and pocket the 50c to $1 profit after-tax, and you do this frequently to build up your profits?

Is this your main shares strategy?

At the moment it is my preferred strategy. Sometimes I hold for a little longer depending on the technical indicators. I figure if I can do several times a year I have my 100k per year passive income. I deal only with asx 20 shares.
 
At the moment it is my preferred strategy. Sometimes I hold for a little longer depending on the technical indicators. I figure if I can do several times a year I have my 100k per year passive income. I deal only with asx 20 shares.

its not passive ...........

Centrelink is passive

Divs, rental and RK business income is recurring.

Trading Id say is active

ta
rolf
 
I don't worry about the down side because I never put myself in the position where I have to sell during market crash... when that time comes I buy more of the same for less
one of the reason I stay debt free ... I can open my wallet when other people contract..A Warren Specialty I like to emulate

and there lies what I see differently from other people ...you are too focus on the market movement where as you should be focus on the business.

the keys is to have a decent understand of the business so that things like that should not scare you but present you with an opportunity to buy very good business at price you unlikely to get again for a long time.

this is the best quote from Benjamin Graham (most considered him to be the fore father of value investing and Warren Buffett great teacher)

'In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine.'

what he is saying is in the short term price will be determined by people moods, emotion, greed and fear but in the long run it reflect the business fundamental, as in if the business keep throw out earning and dividend and increase them in most case, the price of your stock WILL goes up as sure as the sun will rise the next day....

at the end of the day after all the greed and fear, noises, headlines cash flow matters...business that throw out lot of free cash flow and paid dividend they will deliver you substantial gain down the track.

so ONLY buy and hold strong fundamental business and ignore the rest (the hype, the boom, the new fashion etc...)

and read chapter 8 and chapter 20 from the Intelligent Investor by Ben Graham ... that is all you need from that book ...2 most valuable chapters...where he coverers the Margin of Safety and Mr Market Concept ..

not just read it but truly understand it and apply it to your stock buying decision.

what are some of the good business you may ask and in my opinion and I been monitoring successful investors portfolio and I discovered a simple secret ...they all buy a certain type of stocks ... FMCG stocks... it stands for Fast Moving Consumer Goods

as it goods or service people use every day in and out, rain, hail or shine and it require little capital to run and expand... not food producers ...they are bad business but

Woolies, Wesfarmers, KFC, Mcdonalds, Flight Centre, Coke, Veda, Dominos, Retail food Group, Navitas, Financial companies like banks and more ... these business require little money to run and expand and the result lot of free cash flow and the result lot of happy shareholders because the business keep throw them back all these free cash flow via dividend and the more earning and dividend you rack up the market will re-price you accordingly

no mining, no airlines, no car manufacturer etc...

take you a while to sink in what are all the good business... I can identify them
as soon as I read their business model or prospectus.....I dont understand the model or the business I don't invest in them, I don't care who invest in them even Warren Buffett...

Then it come down to how much I want to pay if its cheaper than I think it worth I load it up ...I don't care if the market crash tomorrow or the next year because I know the weighting machine is on my side.

with this principles you tend to make more in a crash as you snapped up all the good bargains and sell back
to other people in happier time and the cycle repeats itself every so often.

here is an exercise plot say nvt.ax or dmp.ax on finance.google.com click on 10 years charts and see anything happen to them during, before and after GFC :)

Weighting machine at work, have a dozen or two of these business What Crash? GFC isn't in its dictionaries
notes that banks do have cycles but generally very good business ...you just need to be comfortable to hold for long term or exit for profit at some point... banks I tend to make money and go and buy back later...

Nice post ROE. A lot of good information in there.
 
its not passive ...........

Centrelink is passive

Divs, rental and RK business income is recurring.

Trading Id say is active

ta
rolf

But certainly a million times less active than waking up to an alarm every morning, putting on shirt and tie and heading off to work.
 
"When will you stop" is like the question, "what's your number" and assumes people have a plan or pre-determined number/goal etc

Some of us are just fumbling through, others have a clear plan (check out Rixters posts) :D

I know a couple who recently hit about $2.5M in the stockmarket (60% stocks, 40% bonds)and decided in their mid 40's to semi-retire (still blogging) and travel the world , spending at least three months in each destination: renting homes, house-sitting, learning languages and customs and enjoying life

They might spend the next 3 years doing this....or the next 30 ;)
 
I know a couple who recently hit about $2.5M in the stockmarket (60% stocks, 40% bonds)and decided in their mid 40's to semi-retire (still blogging) and travel the world , spending at least three months in each destination: renting homes, house-sitting, learning languages and customs and enjoying life

They might spend the next 3 years doing this....or the next 30 ;)

Is that figure enough for a couple to have a jet setting lifestyle for 30 years?
 
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