I think it's all bluff, I know people that haven't declared rental income for more than 12 years and are not worried at all about being caught.
It's annoying when you declare everything and pay tax on it to see those that don't get away with it.
Who is reading your posts ?
- Thread starter Paul@PFI
- Start date
It's annoying when you declare everything and pay tax on it to see those that don't get away with it.
That can be said right across the board of all Gov depts.
Recent example.
Our local hospital and regional Hospital over Xmas staff were cut back to the barest min. Right when the system is at it's busiest.
Management had just received pay rise and all on leave at the time.
FIL spent a full 2 weeks with no medical treatment whatsoever for a major stroke. Just the basics.
While the management were soaking it up on the beach feeling fuzzy about saving $$$.
Seems many posts are missing the point that ATO staff in some areas regularly monitor all forms of information and gather intelligence...They do it as part of their exclusive role to be in advance of the promoters etc. Its not a exercise in intrusion unless it follows that course. Kinda like suggesting speed cameras are wrong...Well they address the problem of speeding cars. Nobody speeds then the cameras arent needed.
For example there really is a team that read newspapers and court cases gathering intelligence that filters through to specific teams. They troll for court admissions or witnesses testimony. Family Court cases can be very enlightening I was once told. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned who wants to tell the court about the cash business her former hubby runs. They even table personal records ! The ATO dont need to rely on their anon dob in a tax cheat line. Sometimes people say the strangest things in court under oath. Some is acted on. Some helps to identify new players. Its not evidence of a tax crime but it may trigger further enquiries. Other bits are accumulated. Ditto there is solid liason between state police, Fed Police, Customs and other agencies who also share information. Even Centrelink. Recent examples that may involved taxes ?? Importers of illegal tobacco (GST, excise), tax avoidance on alcohol and diesel.
I know the ATO and ASIC are monitoring for who is active in the marketing of new SMSFs, SMSF admin services and promotion of property / smsf loans etc. Are they registsred ? Insured ? ABN ? Do they give tax advice or financial advice ? I would argue this is a great thing. eg I dont see any comments in SS posts about smsf loans by a morgage specialist as a concern. Its not financial advice. They are supporting the education of investors and smsf trustees thinking of such a loan - Just like a bank that advertises. But then along comes Joe the loans specialist who offers free trust deeds and establishment of smsfs...He is a early release scheme promoter. The earlier the tax office identify these rogues the better. And I must admit I dont see that behaviour in SS...I would think they would be run outa town fast.
I have had meetings on numerous occasions with ATO officers who gather field intelligence from members in their professions. Yes they ask if there are new schemes floating around (or even re-emergence of an old scheme with a new twist). But thats a bit like cops asking for tips on who robbed a bank. Much intelligence is gathered as new developmnets occur not after the crime. Sometimes it results in a taxpayer alert. In its worst examples it can result in much more serious actions. In some instances the ATO have learned that education is needed.
Just as the ATO can issue notices requiring "information" from anyone (Google, RTA, Credit Card issuers in fact anyone etc) they can also formalise a request to say SS. And ask who a specific participant is. Could even ask for identity info on every subscribed user. It doesnt mean anyone has done anything wrong. Its just information gathering....And you would never know it. Nobody will tell you if your info has been handed to the tax office. I cant think of too many who admit to such a disclosure.
Ditto facebook, "anon" emails like hotmail etc. Agencies have ways and means of determining real identities.
For example there really is a team that read newspapers and court cases gathering intelligence that filters through to specific teams. They troll for court admissions or witnesses testimony. Family Court cases can be very enlightening I was once told. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned who wants to tell the court about the cash business her former hubby runs. They even table personal records ! The ATO dont need to rely on their anon dob in a tax cheat line. Sometimes people say the strangest things in court under oath. Some is acted on. Some helps to identify new players. Its not evidence of a tax crime but it may trigger further enquiries. Other bits are accumulated. Ditto there is solid liason between state police, Fed Police, Customs and other agencies who also share information. Even Centrelink. Recent examples that may involved taxes ?? Importers of illegal tobacco (GST, excise), tax avoidance on alcohol and diesel.
I know the ATO and ASIC are monitoring for who is active in the marketing of new SMSFs, SMSF admin services and promotion of property / smsf loans etc. Are they registsred ? Insured ? ABN ? Do they give tax advice or financial advice ? I would argue this is a great thing. eg I dont see any comments in SS posts about smsf loans by a morgage specialist as a concern. Its not financial advice. They are supporting the education of investors and smsf trustees thinking of such a loan - Just like a bank that advertises. But then along comes Joe the loans specialist who offers free trust deeds and establishment of smsfs...He is a early release scheme promoter. The earlier the tax office identify these rogues the better. And I must admit I dont see that behaviour in SS...I would think they would be run outa town fast.
I have had meetings on numerous occasions with ATO officers who gather field intelligence from members in their professions. Yes they ask if there are new schemes floating around (or even re-emergence of an old scheme with a new twist). But thats a bit like cops asking for tips on who robbed a bank. Much intelligence is gathered as new developmnets occur not after the crime. Sometimes it results in a taxpayer alert. In its worst examples it can result in much more serious actions. In some instances the ATO have learned that education is needed.
Just as the ATO can issue notices requiring "information" from anyone (Google, RTA, Credit Card issuers in fact anyone etc) they can also formalise a request to say SS. And ask who a specific participant is. Could even ask for identity info on every subscribed user. It doesnt mean anyone has done anything wrong. Its just information gathering....And you would never know it. Nobody will tell you if your info has been handed to the tax office. I cant think of too many who admit to such a disclosure.
Ditto facebook, "anon" emails like hotmail etc. Agencies have ways and means of determining real identities.
I was watching something on abc last night about catching trolls. so you can't hide in a dark corner.
as for gathering intel I have worked for companies which pay big $$$ for services like media monitors or for development applications etc. nothing new.
as for gathering intel I have worked for companies which pay big $$$ for services like media monitors or for development applications etc. nothing new.
Soon others will be doing all the work for the ATO. This is already present in the construction industry so who pays the real estate for this extra aministration?
That can be said right across the board of all Gov depts.
Recent example.
Our local hospital and regional Hospital over Xmas staff were cut back to the barest min. Right when the system is at it's busiest.
Management had just received pay rise and all on leave at the time.
FIL spent a full 2 weeks with no medical treatment whatsoever for a major stroke. Just the basics.
While the management were soaking it up on the beach feeling fuzzy about saving $$$.
What goes around comes around. Management are people too and perhaps one day they too will get sick and be in the same situation,right?
I just don't understand how The ATO would distinguish information as fact or fiction gathered via opinions expressed? I think all people have told fibs sometime in their life, I myself find hard sometimes to distinguish when reading in this forum if it is an opinion stated or a fact presented?
That's right, the OP is dreaming. There's only a few hundred people who post on here, maybe a few dozen who post regularly so the ATO isn't going to bother chasing mum and dad investors for not declaring a few thousand bucks. The amount of money isn't worth their time compared to what they need to spend to investigate and recoup it. Not to mention your point that everyone here posts under a pseudonym and could be telling porkies or asking on behalf of a "friend". Even if they determined you're telling the truth and purposely dodging tax, they couldn't track you on here anyway.
Toyota, SPC, Ford, Civil Construction workers...to name a few; and now the ATO.
And everyone reckons the economy is going great!
The ATO's function is to collect tax to the full extent of the law. If they are smart enough to use publicly posted information to help them do that, then more power to them.
I declare all my income, and deductions, and am not concerned if the ATO read my posts. At least I'm not looking over my shoulder in regards to tax evasion.
I declare all my income, and deductions, and am not concerned if the ATO read my posts. At least I'm not looking over my shoulder in regards to tax evasion.
Usually there would be an indication of the reliability of the information when it is collected.
Terry - spot on. I recall approx 2 years ago the ATO had gathered a mass of data on EFTPOS "sales" data from Visa, Mastercard etc. It was applied to benchmarks for certain industries and specific taxpayers. Problem was someone in ATO gave it to the junior. The raw data included cashouts from the merchants !! Thus their benchmark data was overstated significantly for electronic sales v's cash etc. In some industries it was significant...I recall IGA or some grocery independents (?) were very affected. Initially being investigated for potential tax issues. Of course ATO dont walk in and announce their reasons for being there. So it bought costs for those traders. ATO then found its error. Needless to say all in the public forum and very embarrasing to ATO... It was all binned. At significant cost I would imagine.
One of their worst one's is the Medicare levy surcharge. Its riddled with errors because the match between what must go into a return and what health fund report are different. Waste of tax agents and client time for nothing.
One of their worst one's is the Medicare levy surcharge. Its riddled with errors because the match between what must go into a return and what health fund report are different. Waste of tax agents and client time for nothing.
That's true. The source would be recorded to determine how much credit to give it. I know a guy living in Sth East Asia whose life was made hell because some disgruntled local prostitutes (Thailand) told local police he liked underage girls. The local police harassed the guy but never charged him because they found out it wasn't true. During their investigations they hacked his computers and got access to his banking passwords which they used to steal $25,000 via internet transfer. The AFP (Oz Federal Police) got involved and investigated this guy but eventually determined the local police were not trustworthy due to the theft plus they were creating false child porn searches using his IP address. My point is the AFP collected info on this guy because some prostitutes spread rumors the guy liked underage girls. The info they received from their Thai counterparts couldn't be trusted but it was still recorded.
I recently had the ?delight? of being audited by the ATO as a result of data matching.
Even though I was 99% certain I was doing the right thing and following the right rules and paying the right taxes ? it still isn?t a pleasant experience, and ended up costing me about $10,000 in accounting and legal fees. After about 12 months the ATO agreed that I was doing the right thing, and following the right rules and paying the right taxes. The bright side to this is that my accountant is happy, my lawyer is happy and I get a taxable deduction of $10,000 in my next return. People spruking negative gearing would be happy about now?
Before starting an audit the ATO has already done their homework. They know a lot about you already. They know your movements, your bank balance, your income etc etc etc.
However, they then ask you about all these things, just to try and catch you out. I keep fairly good records, however, trying to remember what happened 5 years ago ? and find the specific document which proves it is difficult. It would be much nicer of them to say ?here is the info we have, please justify it?? but that?s not how it works.
So they give you 2 weeks to respond (to be fair they did extend this when I asked for and extension), and want to see all your documents. Amongst other things ? they asked me what my travel dates were, even though they already new this. These are not records which I keep, as I often don?t book my flights, nor pay for them, so trying to remember where I was 5 years ago was a challenge. Facebook became my new best friend. Before you say ?check your passport?, I have been through 3 passports in the time, Australia doesn?t stamp your passports on the way in or out, and I don?t regularly return to Australia.
The data matching is just a tool they use. It doesn?t provide answers, but rather, raises questions. The ATO will usually target sectors ? such as ?expatriates? or ?rental income? etc. They will then narrow their search down with the tools they have, and eventually zoom in of a few individuals. Like any business, they will try to pick off the easy targets with high returns first. The ATO ignores the ?presumption of innocence? mandate, and are very aggressive in pursuing those who they lock onto.
If they come knocking, belt up ? youre in for a long and rough ride. If you have done nothing wrong that is hopefully what they find, however, many of their laws are suitably vague ? just to ensure that you are never fully comfortable.
If you are doing something wrong ? well, enjoy the good times while they last, and keep preying.
Blacky
Even though I was 99% certain I was doing the right thing and following the right rules and paying the right taxes ? it still isn?t a pleasant experience, and ended up costing me about $10,000 in accounting and legal fees. After about 12 months the ATO agreed that I was doing the right thing, and following the right rules and paying the right taxes. The bright side to this is that my accountant is happy, my lawyer is happy and I get a taxable deduction of $10,000 in my next return. People spruking negative gearing would be happy about now?
Before starting an audit the ATO has already done their homework. They know a lot about you already. They know your movements, your bank balance, your income etc etc etc.
However, they then ask you about all these things, just to try and catch you out. I keep fairly good records, however, trying to remember what happened 5 years ago ? and find the specific document which proves it is difficult. It would be much nicer of them to say ?here is the info we have, please justify it?? but that?s not how it works.
So they give you 2 weeks to respond (to be fair they did extend this when I asked for and extension), and want to see all your documents. Amongst other things ? they asked me what my travel dates were, even though they already new this. These are not records which I keep, as I often don?t book my flights, nor pay for them, so trying to remember where I was 5 years ago was a challenge. Facebook became my new best friend. Before you say ?check your passport?, I have been through 3 passports in the time, Australia doesn?t stamp your passports on the way in or out, and I don?t regularly return to Australia.
The data matching is just a tool they use. It doesn?t provide answers, but rather, raises questions. The ATO will usually target sectors ? such as ?expatriates? or ?rental income? etc. They will then narrow their search down with the tools they have, and eventually zoom in of a few individuals. Like any business, they will try to pick off the easy targets with high returns first. The ATO ignores the ?presumption of innocence? mandate, and are very aggressive in pursuing those who they lock onto.
If they come knocking, belt up ? youre in for a long and rough ride. If you have done nothing wrong that is hopefully what they find, however, many of their laws are suitably vague ? just to ensure that you are never fully comfortable.
If you are doing something wrong ? well, enjoy the good times while they last, and keep preying.
Blacky
Last edited by a moderator:
So, Blacky, this "data matching Audit" you endured seems to be specifically related to travel expenses that happened 5 years ago?
A bit rough. Why not the last 3 years? I know we have to generally keep records for 5 years but geez going back 5 years seems too far into the stone age - and with no result for the revenue dept! ha.
I would have just shown the auditors the travel diary and be done. Save 10 grand. Or were there other matters in the audit?
A bit rough. Why not the last 3 years? I know we have to generally keep records for 5 years but geez going back 5 years seems too far into the stone age - and with no result for the revenue dept! ha.
I would have just shown the auditors the travel diary and be done. Save 10 grand. Or were there other matters in the audit?
The audit was a complete audit - not one based on travel. In fact the questions relating to travel were questioning my movements, and had nothing at all to do with travel expenses. It was just one example I used of information which they already had, but asked me about it in any case. And it was hard for me to confirm my movements over the period as it is not something I record (as I dont 'need' to).
I earn income outside of Australia which doesnt need to be declared inside Australia. The audit confirmed that (eventually).
The data matching actually related to bank transfers within Australia. Any transaction over $10k is advised to the govt. Have a few of these in a year and they will start asking where the $$ are coming from (if your declared income doesnt match)
Initially the ATO asked 5 questions which I only used my accountant for a response. The answers to 5 questions raised about another 30, and it went from there.
I dont know why the time frame - I have no doubt that if they felt I was wrong, they would have reviewed the later years also.
Certainly - I could have taken them on myself, however, I dont know the tax law as well as my accountant, and he doesnt know the ins and outs of the law as well as my lawyer. Certainly I could have done it myself and 'saved' $10k, however I veiwed it that the cost to 'win' was $10k. The cost of losing would have had a massive impact on my life in terms of how I lived and traveled - not to mention an additional $$ cost well in excess of the $10k I would of saved.
Blacky
