Why are so many on this forum against property?

[RumpledElf]

Eh, overall property is (well, was) going up faster than wages, which can't happen forever. I'm tipping extended stagnation overall, with places here and there going up or down since you can't make sweeping statements like "it'll go down" about every single property in this country.

That said, if the market is going up, down or sideways there'll always be the opportunities where all the figures add up to a healthy profit. Just expect to do some work - reno, subdivision, bulldoze-and-rebuild etc - not sit there doing absolutely nothing and expect crazy capital gains like in the recent past.

 

[bluestorm]

Some of us Dan look at a wholistic approach to investing. Property has been good for 10-15yrs. It does not mean that there will be such good growth in the future. As with shares, or anything else, there are times when it's better to be on the sidelines, not be active for the sake of being active.
I know the property bulls disagree, but property is like any other asset class. It has period where prices fall. Where the myth of "supply/demand" driving prices every upward is blown away.

Those that are more negative on property currently just believe that the property market will correct over then next couple of years. That's it's better to sit on the sidelines with low LVR and then get back in with more purchases when things play out. That in the mean time we'll build up funds, concentrating on other asset areas that are in different cycle stages.
Then get back in for more proprerty after things hit the fan in 2011/2012.

 

[Dan_p]

Hi Bluestorm and Rumpledelf.

My comments are not directed at people like yourselves. Your sorts of views are helpful and informative. What I see is a different take on things which is good. I was aiming more at people who I found very annoying to read but I couldn't help myself but to read the whole thread, sort of addictive really. One was beepop.

I agree fully with watching from the sidelines sometimes. I have to at the moment due to being heavily committed now. Since I have started in property I have become very enthusiastic about it and I wish I had of started 10 years earlier. It is better to be in property then not as well.

Most people are really good and there is a wealth of knowledge here. Maybe it takes time to work out who is not worth listening to.

 

[Belbo]

I thought I was sucker for format/punctuation overkill, but this post wins the gold star for the week! The only items missing are the semicolon and embedded parentheses.

Why, thank you. I'm delighted you noticed! I tried frenetically to find somewhere for a semicolon, but was otherwise engaged in clarifying my argument to the exclusion of Poetics. (Notably the title of the companion work to Aristotle's Aesthetics, burned from history's memory by the Church for its ridiculing of 'the unquestionable').

(Happy always to debate the comparative cultural validity of the old-world past-tense periphrastic auxillary verb form in contrast to new-world mutations absentia punctuation, any time you've got the time of course, WC. )

Did you actually have anything enlightening to say on topic, by the way? Or is this just a tired sideways dig at form in place of function? Do help me here, because I tire so easily of enervating the lame.

 

[Francesco]

Hi Bluestorm and Rumpledelf.

My comments are not directed at people like yourselves. Your sorts of views are helpful and informative. What I see is a different take on things which is good. I was aiming more at people who I found very annoying to read but I couldn't help myself but to read the whole thread, sort of addictive really. One was beepop. I agree fully with watching from the sidelines sometimes. I have to at the moment due to being heavily committed now. Since I have started in property I have become very enthusiastic about it and I wish I had of started 10 years earlier. It is better to be in property then not as well.

Most people are really good and there is a wealth of knowledge here. Maybe it takes time to work out who is not worth listening to.

Hi DnN, I believe that Beepop (affectionately and exasperatingly known also as BettyBoo or such for being overly wimpy about RE) was evaluated as a troll by the mods and banned from SS.

 

[evand]

Everyone on here has good intentions mate.

And its safer to your wealth to have a balanced view of the future of property prices rather than an always overly optimistic one.

That can be fine short term when the market is trending up. God, even im a bull in those times but at the moment and for the previous few years (barring the stimulus mini boom) the outlook for property has been not that great short-medium term.

I think the overall rapid upward trend in property prices from the late 80s to the present is over.

Long long term, tho, with inflation, property will always deliver. It has to. But the money isnt made there., its made with the major gearing of property investment.

I am starry-eyed and learning a lot from the experienced people here. I want to learn from the experienced people with good intentions.

 

[Sunfish]

I am starry-eyed and learning a lot from the experienced people here. I want to learn from the experienced people with good intentions.

Has it crossed your mind that some experienced people with good intentions may believe that this is not a good time to invest in property?

 

[devank]

I actually like the –ve posters as those posts prompt many useful responses. I learn a lot without asking any questions

No one can predict even what the interest rate is going to be in six months time. Then how can anyone predict what property or shares are going to do?

At any point in time, there are always people arguing any permutation!
Business make money out of house buyers always say “Whooo… times are tough. However, there is money to be made but you have to be very selective. Come to us and we will show you”.

 

[RumpledElf]

That can be fine short term when the market is trending up. God, even im a bull in those times but at the moment and for the previous few years (barring the stimulus mini boom) the outlook for property has been not that great short-medium term.

I have to say its nice to see the overall opinion (ie, the longer term, active posters) on this forum at the moment is pretty much this - realistic.

A few years ago there was a lot of noise from bulls practically spruiking the it-doubles-every-7-10-years line and a LOT of threads on living off equity, people getting 95-110% loans as often as they could just for the equity, and a lot of other rather dubious practises that don't seem to be mentioned anymore, its back to looking for yield, making duplexes and granny flats for yield etc.

Wasn't hard to see how that would make the noisier property bears come here, it was the urge to smack some sense into the noisier bulls and yell at FHBs to "omg don't buy now wait a bit your house will go down". The market has clearly changed, the finance market is clearly tighter, so now its a slightly different kind of anti-property troll that's sticking their noses in because things are still quite unaffordable for plenty of FHBs.

Wait a few years again if/when the market is going DOWN, you'll see advice on here how to make money in property in a down market, people actively MAKING money from property in a down market (the ones losing it will likely go quiet), and a bunch of trolls telling everyone how property is the worst asset class in the universe and you'd have to be a stark raving moron to put your money in something that only goes down.

That's my prediction for trolling trends to 2015

 

[zed_kid]

its cognitive dissonance

 

[Monopoly]

I want to learn from the experienced people with good intentions.

Aside from the odd troll bopping (yes a deliberate reference ) in and out, most people here post with good intentions and are willing to offer advice, guidance and generally happy to chat about property and/or other type of investment strategies with you, giving of their time freely and without prejudice.

Take from this (information) what you will, and what doesn't suit, leave behind. Trust me, no one will take it personally if you don't heed their wisdom.

 

[lizzie]

I don't mind a bit of friendly discussion but when it gets personal and people continually tell everybody who will listen that the sky is falling, I just find it annoying.

What is even worse is the personal attacks and the "when prices crash, I'll be laughing at all of you when you are sitting in the gutter with no money left" type comments.

i personally think they continue harping on because it justify's them doing nothing.

people make excuses (lie to themselves) all the time to justify their course of action, and convience themselves that their course of action is the correct one because otherwise why did they take it? ... even a murderer can justify why they did what they did, and in their own minds they are correct in their actions.

however - if someone else is logically ripping apart the lies you have told yourself for so long, some feel very uncomfortable and cannot cope with the truth because that confirms that they have merely been lying to themselves ... and therefore, rather than accept they were wrong and change their attitude, they will do anything to reinforce their current position.

hope that made sense.

**had to add a disclainer afte reading more posts ... i am talking soley about the extremes of "i can't" - beebop, sammyla etc. I personally am an eternal optimitic, but even i am currently in the "wait and see" moment as i think there will be a readjustment in prices in the short term (next 2 years) where good opportunities to buy will arise - just not yet.

 

[evand]

Thats called cognitive dissonance and it applies as much to bulls as bears. In fact a lot of time more so.

i personally think they continue harping on because it justify's them doing nothing.

people make excuses (lie to themselves) all the time to justify their course of action, and convience themselves that their course of action is the correct one because otherwise why did they take it? ... even a murderer can justify why they did what they did, and in their own minds they are correct in their actions.

however - if someone else is logically ripping apart the lies you have told yourself for so long, some feel very uncomfortable and cannot cope with the truth because that confirms that they have merely been lying to themselves ... and therefore, rather than accept they were wrong and change their attitude, they will do anything to reinforce their current position.

hope that made sense.

 

[lizzie]

Thats called cognitive dissonance and it applies as much to bulls as bears. In fact a lot of time more so.

i agree ... it relates all those overzealous in either direction - the i can'ts and the i musts.

fortunately the majority of us fall in the middle some some swing further one way than the other.

 

[bene313]

Has it crossed your mind that some experienced people with good intentions may believe that this is not a good time to invest in property?

This is an important point. If you want to go buy property, go right ahead but take on board the opinions of the experienced.

There are quite a few on this forum who believe that now is a time to tread carefully. However, that is not to say that there are not deals to be had.

 

[Ausprop]

I don't understand why many think that to invest, be pro-property, or even contribute some value to this forum that you have to be a hooray henry?? I love property but am realistic enough to know it moves in cycles, there are dud properties and there are traps for the unwary. There are also gobal influences that are bigger than our property market. Different times call for different investing styles.

 

[bene313]

I can see some people becoming life time renters following some bad advice.

I reckon there might be some home buyers in say Sydney in 2005 or Perth in 2007 who would've loved to have foreseen what the next few years had in stall.

Besides, buying a place to live has less to do with investing, and much more to do with the buyers personal requirements (location, affordability, family needs, lifestyle choice, etc). That is, it is more of an emotional decision rather than one of capital investment.

 

[bluestorm]

Things like your better off renting, or housing prices are going to crash.

This can be harmful to first home buyers who are coming on here determining whether to rent or buy. I can see some people becoming life time renters following some bad advice.

There are options to buying a PPOR as well Dan. You can also be far better off in renting, and getting investment properties elsewhere.

 

[Dan_p]

Long long term, tho, with inflation, property will always deliver. It has to. But the money isnt made there., its made with the major gearing of property investment.

Thanks Evand,

I think thats the main thing, just try and hold on to decent property over a long time. Its a simple strategy for a simple man.

I thought most people were pretty good on here, maybe the odd bad egg. It is certainly entertaining reading some of these threads, especially when it becomes a bit heated.

Its commendable so many people are willing to share their knowledge and I know I will be reading many posts in the future.

 

[Dan_p]

i agree ... it relates all those overzealous in either direction - the i can'ts and the i musts.

fortunately the majority of us fall in the middle some some swing further one way than the other.

this is the sort of thing I was eluding to. Especially the i cant's, especially with so many examples of how things can be done by people less well off.