Yardney - Don't Invest in Mining Towns

Thanks Ian,

Another question to all, I read that the resources sector is cyclical, if so, where are we now in the cycle??


Considering the boom started about 2003, there's been 8 years of great prices, with a small lull in the middle for the GFC about late 08, early 09, is the top in and we are on the decline?

But on the other hand, there has always been highs and lows in a boom and bust cycle, but that is in the past. There is an exponencially growing human population, who are all getting wealthier thanks to efficiency gains in primary and secondary industries, allowing more and more people to work in service industries. But at the same time, resources are not unlimited, but declining. As in energy, metals, and land for food production. Perhaps the old boom and bust cycle has ended and replaced by a bigger boom/lesser boom cycle with prices on a new permanently higher platue?.

Got no idea really.

I should disclose that I'm invested into ASX resource companies and agricultural land.


See ya's.
 
Thanks for the direct advice, Ian (assuming your tirade was for my benefit too), and it's something I will seriously pursue when the PM agreements come up for their first renewal (because the saving on PM fees would be decidely material, to me at least).

I do self-PM in Sydney and it's true - it's hardly a burden - and the current experience through agency PM has given me a variety of contacts for maintenance, but I will still need to look into those directly sourcing those corporate leases up there.

I'm a bit like Seebreeze at the moment though - that is, working horrendous hours for the man, and up to the clacker in crocodiles (the tides going out, the fish are all eaten, and my bosses are screaming from the riverbank for flesh). No excuses will do, I know: Just got to locate and engage that 7th gear.
 
Touche Belbo........touche................how's the budgies' belly ache?

Pt. Hedland..........yes, the source of my lament, along with lashings of unashamed & unbridled envy on my part. Would dearly love to have some little, red, dusty nuggets there.

Sadly the only little, red, dusty nuggets i've got are covered in cobwebs and about to turn blue as the ex starts to squeeze!! :(


Ian
 
I've split off a number of posts into a new thread

I'd like to keep this thread on topic but keep Ian's comments in the forum- unless he would like them removed.
 
A Fan!

If you've been to my seminars you'd know that for the last few years I have been recommending properties in Sydney's inner West and selected Eastern suburbs and those who've bought the right properties there have had significant capital growth and great rent returns

Hi Michael,
I didn't realise you are a member. I will be at your seminar on the 17th....
I enjoy thoroughly your books and your education so you have at least one fan here....
 
Yardney only buys in the city. Every article he writes states this. Think sometimes you need to think outside of the box to make money. Rent $1,500-$2,500 per week Capital growth of about $70,000 per year if not better and has been over the last 4 years. Bad investment don't think so!!! It's booming and will contunie to boom for the next 4 years at least!
 
research is the key in this debate. 400k profit in 7 years with min out lay!!

Been in and out of two resource towns in last 5 years... and recently bought in another.
Both times bought existing houses at low end price range before mines were set to expand and got out 6 months before expansion slowed.

All up i was in the market for 2 years for the 1st IP and second 3.5 years.
1st property in (PH) after all taxes stamp duty deducted out I made clear profit of 162k, To be honest I should have held on as the the outer harbour will create a second boom for this Area.
2nd property (Tom Price) 223k profit...

I own a property in newman that currently nets after tax and all expenses $2200 in positive cashflow per month.
I had this appraised recently and it has gone up 60-70k in 12 months, this town is set to double in size in 5-10 years due to FMG,BHP,RIO,HANCOCK mining all expanding I will hold this for 3-4 years and expect a net profit of 150k after tax.
It is a gamble but due to massive positive income I have been able to purchase 3 other IP's over last 4 years that are negative geared but in great areas that in 2-5 years will be neutral or even positive geared.. That is as long as interest rates stay 7-9%.
As soon as these properties are neutral I will get out of the mining speculation game and bank on these growing.
Mining is australias life blood and people need to live somewhere so if you do your study its not as hard as you think.....
 
I have seen first hand friends of mine spend 12 years in a particular mining town, then at the end of it all, sell up, cash in and purchase a $2.9m mansion in Sydney :) And their budget was actually $3.1m with extra cash to spare.

A few very unique circumstances however lead to this.
- They got there before the mining boom had actually started. So they were buying crappy properties for $50k which jumped up to $450k when the boom kicked in returning $1500/wk.
- They were in business with big tax advantages, not in jobs.
- They very hard working and diligent and researched well to make sure they were doing the right thing with their money as they earnt it along the way.

Add all that up and repeat the process for 12 years and you can come back and buy your $3m PPoR.

Lots of hard work, lots of street smarts, but a bit serendipitous at the same time. It would be quite tricky to repeat the process again now days as everyone knows about the mining boom, its very main stream and those same properties are now all inflated to the max to buy into.

So you either have to look for the next place that's going to do the same thing but hasn't yet, otherwise stick to your safe and boring capital city mainstream investments and be prepared to end up in an $1m PPoR not a $3m one ;)
 
Most of the tradies used by RE in Karratha would be charging easily over $110ph absolute minimum... Likely median would be about $130-$140. Also the price and lead time for parts is ridiculous we run on Karratha time up here ;)

Simply don't buy anything which requires renovation/repairs unless it's heavily discounted or you have some good local contacts.

Edit: Be very careful about using out of towners, or small one man companies and expecting a warrenty... I have seen countless situations where the tradie left town and the LL has been left with no warrenty even on new homes. Hell even harvey norman will give you dramas from stuff you bought from their store!!!!
 
Last edited:
I thought I'd chime in with my thoughts. Overall I consider myself a balanced investor with no fixed strategy or views. I have inner + outer + regional + interstate, new + old, cheap + expensive, house + unit, HDT + DT + personal name.

I have been investing for 12 years and am always open to new ideas and thoughts.

I will note a few things:
  • My 'prime inner suburban blue chip yada ya' apartment in Toorak has averaged a dismal 1-3% capital growth for the last 5 years (2007 -) whilst costing me $18 each year after tax. This has gone nowhere in 5 years and I fell will do poor this year to. It's hard to rent too and a horrible time to sell if I wanted to.
  • The two properties I was looking at in Karringal (near Frankston) for $225k at this time that I was going to buy instead would be worth around ~$330k (with good cashflows from day one). I would be up $200k+ had I followed my gut and bought these instead.
  • My outer suburban properties which I was advised to sell have consistently achieved around 9%, great cashflow and never a year of negative or no growth. All very easy to rent, not even a week of vacancy per year between them.
  • I have invested in Gladstone in Jan 2012. $530k house rented for $900pw and a $600k house just about to rent for $1250pw (fingers crossed!) if I had another $3k of furnishings (maybe a bit less). 10% yields are easily achievable right now, the growth must follow IMO. I fully believe in a long period (5-10+ years) of solid, sustained returns in this area, rather than a short sharp spike boom / crash nor a reliance on a single company, project or industry to a lesser extent.

There's mining towns and there's mining towns.

Agree totally. Personally, I believe don't believe it's good comparison compare Gladstone to Karratha, Kalgoolie and the like.

It's really not a 'mining town' in the same way those places are mining towns, there is substantial agriculture, tourism and other industries in the area. It's much larger and has great lifestyle features (1770, Anges Waters, the Reef, Islands, etc). Technically Gladstone is a city, not a town anyway.

Can I coin the term 'Mining City'?

Remember, as we have no properties for sale I have no vested interest recommending a particular area. And I have significant property assets in the suburbs I recommend to clients - I put my money where my mouth is.

It's always great to have your views on the forum Michael.

I would however mention, unless your Melbourne office would be prepared to go and buy in Geelong or similar (an area which I would happily invest in now, I think it has great prospects) I would argue you are biased to purchase property in areas which your BA arm services, similar to Wakelins (which is only inner Melbourne).

Also, inner suburbs mean more % commission due to higher prices, another potential source of bias (not saying you are biased on this one, just saying it is there). I can't imagine many BA's jumping at 3% of a $180k property, they would need a fixed price model for this.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong on this though and I do recognise your 'inner CG' theory existed before you established your BA service.

I do however believe the times has changed and the way forward is finding value in the micro markets and determining growth drivers, not distances from CBDs and water. It's extra work to adapt to this and therefore bias exists to stick to 'inner CG theory'.

I also recognise that you live your views and put your money where your mouth is. This is excellent and why I've paid much attention to what you have had to say over the years, I probably only have a different opinion of around 10%.
 
I really wouldn't include Gladstone in all of this... We're an industrial city.

The beauty of Gladstone is, that even if one of the industries were to fail and stop production (i.e QAL, our Alumina refinery), it wouldn't really cause Gladstone to crash to nothing, due to the numerous other industries around.

That was a long sentence haha.
 
First time I've seen this thread.

My wife and I have made (and are still making) our fortune in Port Hedland.

Started back in 2003 and where derived as loopy by people (who would want to invest up there and have to pay more tax???!!!!). Still buying into there with selective properties.

Issues that need to be considered up there:

South Hedland is presently being rezoned from R20 to R30 and so there will be more housing stock comin on-line in the next 18 to 24 months, this will depress the prices a little with either reduced or flat rents during that period.
The powers that be want PH to have a population of about 50,000 and be more of a regional city than just a mining port, this will require extra housing. This will put pressure on housing and land release difficult to do outside the town centres
Gina Rhineharts Hope Downs is going to be exporting through PH with a new loading facility in the port, new rail line etc. Approximate 8000 workforce with a huge camp on the western side of South Hedland next to FMGs.
BHP still want to expand the facilities in PH
FMG also.
Other junior miners export through PH
If Europe goes belly up, China will blink and the demand for ore might take a hit
Having said all that, if companies like BHP and GR want to invest billions then they must see more upside than down.
Hear stories that 20 million people per year are urbanised in China. That requires a lot of resources.
Ignoring China, India and Indonesia and also demanding iron ore as they start to urbanise.
Even after the Chinese every stop urbanising their people, they will then want consumer products like cars, TVs etc. These will demand different resources (like copper, mineral sands etc) and will start another boom in those areas.

Comments of some of the other issues raised:
Cyclones: that's what insurance is for. It is costly but get the right cover that covers for loss of rent in the rare event your house does a Wizard of Oz.
Management: This can be expensive, but if you negotiate you can get 6/7%+
Damage: Most tenants are corporate, so you have recourse through the company

I would tend to buy the newer stock but there are some terrible S#!t boxes still on larger lots.

Some RE companies (well actually one) has artificially raised the ceiling on prices with a lot of dveelopment around town. This might come back to the market price when more lots come on the market with rezoning.

All said and done, we have an exit trigger and exit strategy to get out of there should things turn sour. Have given this long thought and it covers us on a possible downswing whilst still enjoying the current benefits of this extended upswing.

But like anything, do you own DD and YMMV.
 
All said and done, we have an exit trigger and exit strategy to get out of there should things turn sour.

Hi Hotrod. Thanks for sharing! Mind if ask what your exit trigger is?

Is it yield based? (i.e. once yield drops to the long term average).
 
Hi Hotrod. Thanks for sharing! Mind if ask what your exit trigger is?

Is it yield based? (i.e. once yield drops to the long term average).

We have six monthly rent reviews that have been ever increasing and is our leading indicator of the market. The rental return determines price. If the rent drops we will begin to liquidate stock if the yield falls below a minimum acceptable gross yield which is based on the original purchase price plus a profit margin.


Until then, let the good times roll.
 
Last edited:
someone has stuck a match under the economy - I don't know what is going on but business is taking off. we can barely keep up with quotations at the moment
 
Back
Top