You can't get rid of poverty by giving people money - P J O'Rourke
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Firstly, Sunstone
You would have to define 'poverty'.
The value judgement of the observer may not be the subjective estimation of the person experiencing the situation.
Equally, the poverty may be financial, emotional, etc
Have we not been told many times of the 'poor little rich girl', the story of Barbara Hutton, heir to the Woolworths fortune?
Monica Dickens, in 'The Listeners', describes poverty as a 'social disease'.
Many philanthropists have tried to cure poverty.
But to many other people there is no such thing. It is just how things are.
Kristine
You would have to define 'poverty'.
The value judgement of the observer may not be the subjective estimation of the person experiencing the situation.
Equally, the poverty may be financial, emotional, etc
Have we not been told many times of the 'poor little rich girl', the story of Barbara Hutton, heir to the Woolworths fortune?
Monica Dickens, in 'The Listeners', describes poverty as a 'social disease'.
Many philanthropists have tried to cure poverty.
But to many other people there is no such thing. It is just how things are.
Kristine
Well, I think there are many types of poverty and many causes of poverty.
When we look at overseas countries, with no natural assets, poor climate conditions and soil and see the people with virtually nothing, then THAT is poverty.
Then we see other film clips that look like poverty, but the assets of the country are decimated by dishonest power brokers. International aid is at times stored in warehouses to be sold overseas or on the black market, while people starve on the next block.
Then there is poverty caused by inter racial or religious tensions which do not allow people to grow crops etc, causing great hardship to everyone, eg Zimbabwe.
Then you have countries like India where some people have extreme wealth but just 2 klm away people live under a sheet of tin in a garbage dump. There are places in the USA where the poor are quite badly treated.
Then we have the imagined poverty of countries like Oz and the UK where generous welfare systems minimise the effects of illness or unemployment.
Here in Oz it is extremely rare for anyone to live in continual, true poverty. It would only be those who have a chronic illness or perhaps a mental handicap, who are stuck in the poverty cycle.
We do have quite a few who choose to spend all their income, then complain when it is gone, but obviously that is not poverty, that is greed and envy.
The quickest way to get rid of poverty in Oz would be to teach everyone how to budget and how to prioritise their spending habits.
When we look at overseas countries, with no natural assets, poor climate conditions and soil and see the people with virtually nothing, then THAT is poverty.
Then we see other film clips that look like poverty, but the assets of the country are decimated by dishonest power brokers. International aid is at times stored in warehouses to be sold overseas or on the black market, while people starve on the next block.
Then there is poverty caused by inter racial or religious tensions which do not allow people to grow crops etc, causing great hardship to everyone, eg Zimbabwe.
Then you have countries like India where some people have extreme wealth but just 2 klm away people live under a sheet of tin in a garbage dump. There are places in the USA where the poor are quite badly treated.
Then we have the imagined poverty of countries like Oz and the UK where generous welfare systems minimise the effects of illness or unemployment.
Here in Oz it is extremely rare for anyone to live in continual, true poverty. It would only be those who have a chronic illness or perhaps a mental handicap, who are stuck in the poverty cycle.
We do have quite a few who choose to spend all their income, then complain when it is gone, but obviously that is not poverty, that is greed and envy.
The quickest way to get rid of poverty in Oz would be to teach everyone how to budget and how to prioritise their spending habits.
The easiest and fastest way to get rid of poverty would be to remove the word from dictionaries & classify anyone living below UN or state-defined poverty lines as 'economically-challenged'.
Then herd all the homeless people and those mentally and physically disabled into re-education camps.
Then send out press releases claiming that there is no more poverty & show pet journalists around the cleansed areas to prove it.
Sounds callous? It has been used (successfully) by numerous governments in the past and present (including so-called democratic ones).
No other solution to poverty has succeeded in even 50% of cases - different groups need different solutions.
Complex problems need multi-faceted solutions - usually too complex for governments to enact.
Even in Australia poverty is a many-headed beast & simplistic education or hand-out based solutions have consistently failed to eradicate the problem.
The fastest & cheapest way (above) is clearly not the best for the people concerned. Instead a long-term community-based strategy focused around changing the circumstances & attitudes of impoverished people and providing them with the support and education required for people to lift themselves out of the poverty trap is required. The structure must be extremely flexible to support different levels of need and ability and aim to foster everyone according to their needs.
Sounds socialistic? This is not normally my thing, but for this issue it's the most effective approach to create middle-class wage slaves....
To create independently wealthy and happy people a much larger commitment would be required
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Then herd all the homeless people and those mentally and physically disabled into re-education camps.
Then send out press releases claiming that there is no more poverty & show pet journalists around the cleansed areas to prove it.
Sounds callous? It has been used (successfully) by numerous governments in the past and present (including so-called democratic ones).
No other solution to poverty has succeeded in even 50% of cases - different groups need different solutions.
Complex problems need multi-faceted solutions - usually too complex for governments to enact.
Even in Australia poverty is a many-headed beast & simplistic education or hand-out based solutions have consistently failed to eradicate the problem.
The fastest & cheapest way (above) is clearly not the best for the people concerned. Instead a long-term community-based strategy focused around changing the circumstances & attitudes of impoverished people and providing them with the support and education required for people to lift themselves out of the poverty trap is required. The structure must be extremely flexible to support different levels of need and ability and aim to foster everyone according to their needs.
Sounds socialistic? This is not normally my thing, but for this issue it's the most effective approach to create middle-class wage slaves....
To create independently wealthy and happy people a much larger commitment would be required
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Absolute poverty - that is having insufficient essentials in life (food, clothing and shelter) is easily overcome and could be totally eradicated (if the powers that be were serious about the problem).
Relative poverty will always exist. In Australia one measure of relative poverty is known as the "Henderson Poverty Line".
Brotherhood of St Laurence
Australian Council of Social Service
MB
Relative poverty will always exist. In Australia one measure of relative poverty is known as the "Henderson Poverty Line".
Brotherhood of St Laurence
Australian Council of Social Service
MB
Pitt_St,
Why would the powers-that-be EVER make a serious attempt to get rid of absolute poverty. It affects too small a % of the Australian population to make an impact on votes.
They instead target people who feel poor but really aren't - a much larger demographic group & easily influenced by small concessions.
The only way to eradicate absolute poverty is by community action.
That means each of us has to take some action towards getting rid of poverty - not just sit on the sidelines and call it SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEM.....
Cheers,
Aceyducey
You can't force people to become educated, some are happy with very little money and if you give them some give them some finance / budgetting training they still get rid of the cash as quick as possible. (my test subject is a family relation)
Make your donations, make yourself happy by being a worthy citizen, find out what you need to do to be happy with your social responsibility. Some people just don't want your help.
quoll
Make your donations, make yourself happy by being a worthy citizen, find out what you need to do to be happy with your social responsibility. Some people just don't want your help.
quoll
When I wrote that I was actually thinking beyond Australian borders.
In Australia, our social security system *should* eradicate absolute poverty (it doesn't, as some people have either fallen through the cracks, or otherwise taken a wrong turn in life).
In other countries this is not the case (our social security system is among the most advanced, and generous, in the world).
But you are right.
For the most part, when it comes to poverty the care factor = zero.
MB
Last edited:
True Poverty cannot exist in Australia. The welfare system is too good. Anyone who is in absolute poverty in Australia must do so by choice. (Unless someone can point out how this cannot be so?)
BUT - It does exist elsewhere, which is bad...
Unfortunately, those governments/dictators/whatever choose to continue this to the detriment of their own people...
Thoughts ?
BUT - It does exist elsewhere, which is bad...
Unfortunately, those governments/dictators/whatever choose to continue this to the detriment of their own people...
Thoughts ?
Homeless people frequently live in absolute poverty - no fixed address or "identity" = no welfare so scrounge from bins or beg for handouts. Many of these people have mental illness and simply cannot fit into the mould the government insists on. Some of course choose to live this way (why, I can't imagine).
There are also many aboriginal communities in outback QLD, NT and WA where people live in less than tin shacks subsist off the land - receive no government assistance.
We all like to think that Australia is nothing like the images seen on TV of third world countries but the fact is, for some people thats exactly how it is. Unfortunately, I don't think World Vision have child sponsorship projects aimed at aboriginal communities.
There are also many aboriginal communities in outback QLD, NT and WA where people live in less than tin shacks subsist off the land - receive no government assistance.
We all like to think that Australia is nothing like the images seen on TV of third world countries but the fact is, for some people thats exactly how it is. Unfortunately, I don't think World Vision have child sponsorship projects aimed at aboriginal communities.
No, but there is Indigenous Enterprise Partnerships .
Things ARE being done in Australia to help the indigenous aboriginal population to help themselves.. This took one search in google, and about 2 minutes of browsing. We can all help to make a difference. There IS poverty in Australia but not on the scale or tragic circumstance as in many other countries.
My case in point - Our family trust has a policy that for every $50k of equity controlled (used to be $100k but the profits seem to be come so easy it was modified), it either sponsors one world vision child, or donates $500 per annum to charity. Charity of choice is the trustees discresion. Mine will always sponsor charities that help setup communities with education. and an infrastructure for self-reliance.
Hi
Jas - As I understand it, for normal immigration, you must have $xxx behind you to be eligible. Hence, they shouldn't need assistance (actually, I think they cant for a set period - perhaps 1 year?).
Natmarie - Homeless people. I have trouble with that in Australia. You are homeless by choice - again I don't understand why - especially when there are many agencies around that offer accomodation etc. Ususally though, the people don't like the conditions attached (no drink/drug etc). Again, choice. Mental issues - I'd need you to explain how these people couldn't get assistance....
Aboriginal people is something I really don't understand. Per head, they receive a magnitude more welfare than 'the rest'. This tells me there should be no poverty there, other than choices (drinking, smoking are choices, so why is it poor people always seem to have both habits?), or very bad management (very possible!)
Jum - I agree, in that I feel blessed to be where I'm at now, so I make it a point to 'share' that.
Don't mean to offend anyone, but I really do struggle to see how, with our current welfare system, you could live in TRUE poverty, except by choice (and that can mean choosing not to comply with conditions also).
I actually tried to get some emergency accomodation off the ground last year. Found a property that would've been perfect for it - 30 rooms with ensuites, common rooms, kitchen etc!! Wanted to do something like battered wives, or emergency accom of some sort. In the end, couldn't get any gov't or charity to be interested in it if it wasn't 100% free (nice, but I can't afford that sort of money just yet. So, I had to let it go. Damn pity.)
Cheerio
Simon.
Jas - As I understand it, for normal immigration, you must have $xxx behind you to be eligible. Hence, they shouldn't need assistance (actually, I think they cant for a set period - perhaps 1 year?).
Natmarie - Homeless people. I have trouble with that in Australia. You are homeless by choice - again I don't understand why - especially when there are many agencies around that offer accomodation etc. Ususally though, the people don't like the conditions attached (no drink/drug etc). Again, choice. Mental issues - I'd need you to explain how these people couldn't get assistance....
Aboriginal people is something I really don't understand. Per head, they receive a magnitude more welfare than 'the rest'. This tells me there should be no poverty there, other than choices (drinking, smoking are choices, so why is it poor people always seem to have both habits?), or very bad management (very possible!)
Jum - I agree, in that I feel blessed to be where I'm at now, so I make it a point to 'share' that.
Don't mean to offend anyone, but I really do struggle to see how, with our current welfare system, you could live in TRUE poverty, except by choice (and that can mean choosing not to comply with conditions also).
I actually tried to get some emergency accomodation off the ground last year. Found a property that would've been perfect for it - 30 rooms with ensuites, common rooms, kitchen etc!! Wanted to do something like battered wives, or emergency accom of some sort. In the end, couldn't get any gov't or charity to be interested in it if it wasn't 100% free (nice, but I can't afford that sort of money just yet.
So, I had to let it go. Damn pity.)Cheerio
Simon.
My previous experience with people suffering financial hardship is that poverty does exist in Australia and it would be difficult to eradicate (as much as I would love to).
The main groups I noticed were as Jas said the newcomers who fall outside out welfare system, those with mental / drug /illness issues where either they fall through the gaps of the assistance provided, or due to lack of life skills, are unable to manage normal day to day mangement of money.
Financial couselling usually consisted of setting up automatic payments for their rent and utilities.
The most frustrating to deal with were those that had "inherited" poverty as a state of mind and regarded any assistance or offers of help or knowledge as some kind of trickery to deny them of some form of financial assistance. This group had the ability to learn and had quite a lot of skills and knowledge but all narrowly directd towards how to obtain the most from the system than gain paid employment. This group woul prefer to stand in line for an hour waiting for a $20 food voucher than say clean some-one's house for 3 hours and recieve $40.
In the end I became far too disillusioned to continue in this area of work.
The main groups I noticed were as Jas said the newcomers who fall outside out welfare system, those with mental / drug /illness issues where either they fall through the gaps of the assistance provided, or due to lack of life skills, are unable to manage normal day to day mangement of money.
Financial couselling usually consisted of setting up automatic payments for their rent and utilities.
The most frustrating to deal with were those that had "inherited" poverty as a state of mind and regarded any assistance or offers of help or knowledge as some kind of trickery to deny them of some form of financial assistance. This group had the ability to learn and had quite a lot of skills and knowledge but all narrowly directd towards how to obtain the most from the system than gain paid employment. This group woul prefer to stand in line for an hour waiting for a $20 food voucher than say clean some-one's house for 3 hours and recieve $40.
In the end I became far too disillusioned to continue in this area of work.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging hatred.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
True and relevant words both then and now.
Except for true poverty, famine etc or mismanagement by governements as has already been mentioned, I don't think you can change a persons thinking unless he/she WANTS/IS WILLING to learn to think and act differently.
Cheers
Olly
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging hatred.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN
True and relevant words both then and now.
Except for true poverty, famine etc or mismanagement by governements as has already been mentioned, I don't think you can change a persons thinking unless he/she WANTS/IS WILLING to learn to think and act differently.
Cheers
Olly
Similar threads
