Aussie CAD

productivity investment? what, like a commercial lend?

HA! have they seen the colour of the noses of businesses who have had the door slammed in their faces by banks?

geezus - the govenrment - elected by the people to speak fo the people - clearly have no idea what's going on anymore.
 
Interpret it as you will HE. There's multiple holes in Treasury's treatment. i.e.

- why is there a drive to get the public purse quickly back into surplus? What has changed that prevents simultaneous public and private debt?

- why is infrastructure not keeping up with population growth, as evident in LGAs having to front load head works costs and increasingingly inadequate transport such as Sydney and Melbourne train overcrowding, and congested peak hour arterial roads.

- why are public health waiting lists growing?

- why is the pension not keeping pace with inflation?

- why is govt selling off assets? particularly Vic, NSW, and Qld.

- why is our workforce of necessity becoming more casualized?

- why didn't the analysis address the sustainability of Australia's high population growth rate, and its contribution to our BOP?

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Hi WW

I am well aware of the frequency that Treasury makes mistakes, particularly in estimating budget outcomes. However, this example is more qualitative and fundamental than trying to guess a number based on uncertain revenue and cost estimates. To answer each of your items in turn:

- Because our economy is not in recession and is actually growing strongly. Thoughts of stimulus were required when we thought we were driving off the GFC cliff.

- Because govts (well the biggest one anyway) are running surpluses (or near enough) and are getting away with more of these costs being borne by the private sector. Why would they pay for more when the private sector is already paying? Why pay for a toll road yourself when Macquarie et al will build you one for free, gift it to you after forty years or so and the electorate lets them get away with it? Happy to say that latter point doesn't apply in WA! The fact that our Fed govt hardly has any debt gives them plenty of scope to borrow to invest in infrastructure but no-one has the stomach for that anymore, outside the NBN and even that gets criticised like there's no tomorrow. High speed rail will run into the same armchair critics and bigger and wider roads only encourage people to buy more cars. I'd rather see better bicycle paths and terrible roads! :p

- Do they? Really? Not over here in WA anyway - they've been up and down over the years but no consistent upward trend really exists, depending on the procedure in question of course. Anyway, public health is a State govt responsibility (only recently a Fed one) so drawing a parallel between it and the CAD is a long bow. If the commonwealth was prepared to enter into a little debt we could afford first class health facilities but as it is already Australia is one of the best countries in the world to get sick outside Scandinavia.

- Because the commonwealth govt places fiscal responsibility above indexing the pension. And because super is going to save us all in the end {sarcasm}.

- Because the private sector should own assets, not governments. They're far better at it, remember? Competitive tension and all that. If you take the example of Victorian power stations, taxpayers got a fantastic deal out of that privatisation and the current owners are taking a real cold bath. A real master stroke by the Kennett govt. Privatisation should be seen as a positive for a right winger - govt having less of an influence in our lives.

- Because it's becoming more flexible and responsive. The participation rate is increasing because of all the casuals who otherwise wouldn't be in the employment market at all and unemployment is dropping. You have to have a real hard look to find a negative in that story...

- Because with the advent of desal plants, sustainability questions for population growth are at a minimum decades away, probably half a century at least. I'm not sure Treasury was thinking that far out when taking a look at the CAD.

Personally I find most of these issues as not particularly relevant to the sustainability of the CAD. We're discussing the govt fiscal situation when the topic is international trade? There's a link but it's not the main game, as the Treasury paper makes abundantly clear.
 
geezus - the govenrment - elected by the people to speak fo the people - clearly have no idea what's going on anymore.

Treasury officials aren't elected by anyone. And as for Mr Keen's graph, we perhaps need to conduct our own DD as to whether he is right or Treasury.

They can of course both be right. Our GDP % on mortgages could still be well below international comparables, at least pre-GFC. I haven't done that research but if you asked me whether I would trust Stephen Keen over the Australian Treasury....... :rolleyes:
 
- Because our economy is not in recession and is actually growing strongly. Thoughts of stimulus were required when we thought we were driving off the GFC cliff.

If it is growing strongly, then so should govt revenue per capita, which means State assets shouldn't need to be sold, public services should be improving, headworks for sub divisions shouldn't need to be front loaded, stamp duty on houses shouldn't have to be escalated at the rate of house price inflation, BER shouldn't have been required (because schools would already have adequate facitliies).

Further, private debt has increased at a greater rate than GDP in the last 20 years. If that debt was as Treasury says, invested in the means of production, then why hasn't GDP increased at the same rate as debt?

If you want to argue the private sector should be providing more of the infrastructure, then why aren't they? Why isn't the water supply of Melbourne and Brisbane increasing at the rate of population growth?

- outside the NBN and even that gets criticised like there's no tomorrow.

But not by Treasury during an election campaign. Others criticized because govt were too arrogant to account for the cost transparently.

High speed rail will run into the same armchair critics and bigger and wider roads only encourage people to buy more cars. I'd rather see better bicycle paths and terrible roads! :p

Who exactly is supposed to benefit from HSR? Here's Gillard's election blurb...


High speed rail has the potential to cut travel times for people commuting between capital cities like Sydney and growing regional cities like Newcastle and Gosford.
Nearly 10 million people live along the east coast between Brisbane and Melbourne, which requires ongoing investment in modern transport infrastructure.
The feasibility study will build on previous preliminary work on this issue by identifying potential rail corridors, undertaking geotechnical and engineering investigations and doing the financial and economic modelling to determine the project’s viability.
It will examine the network between Brisbane and Melbourne, with a specific focus on the geotechnical analysis and preservation of the corridor between Sydney and Newcastle.

How is HSR between capitals supposed to compete with today's flight costs? What volume of passengers need to travel between regional coastal towns? Qld's tilt train had the some hyperbole thrown around about it, but it runs at a loss, and is used primarily by pensioners on heavily discounted fares for cheap holidays.

As far as I can see, HSR is just a high tech BS affair Labor like to throw around to make them seem like they are moving Australia 'forwards'.

Victorian Govt sold off their metro train operation rights because they couldn't manage it responsibly, so why should govt be trusted to know what they are doing with HSR? Qld wanted to sell off QR in its entirety.

- Do they? Really? Not over here in WA anyway - they've been up and down over the years but no consistent upward trend really exists, depending on the procedure in question of course. Anyway, public health is a State govt responsibility (only recently a Fed one) so drawing a parallel between it and the CAD is a long bow.

Public health is federally funded, which includes the supply of GPs. Why not ask your country cousins whether they feel they have adequate health care? In Qld hospitals, Category 2 patients waiting over 90 days for surgery has increased by 50% since 2006 while the total waiting list has increased by 38%. Why is there a waiting list at all? Community palliative care is grossly underfunded in Qld. WA must be getting too big a cut of Federal revenue if you get better health service than the east coast.

If the commonwealth was prepared to enter into a little debt we could afford first class health facilities but as it is already Australia is one of the best countries in the world to get sick outside Scandinavia.

We could only afford borrowing for health if the debt invested increased GDP adequately enough to cover the interest cost. But that's not how health works. The highest health cost is associated with caring for the non productive aged.


- Because the commonwealth govt places fiscal responsibility above indexing the pension. And because super is going to save us all in the end {sarcasm}.

If it is fiscal responsibility to erode the buying power of the pension, then the AUstalian std of living is being eroded....unless the private sector is going to provide the pension. Super isn't going to quite cut it for a workforce ever more casualized.


- Because the private sector should own assets, not governments. They're far better at it, remember? Competitive tension and all that. If you take the example of Victorian power stations, taxpayers got a fantastic deal out of that privatisation and the current owners are taking a real cold bath. A real master stroke by the Kennett govt. Privatisation should be seen as a positive for a right winger - govt having less of an influence in our lives.

Then let's privatize the police force and the army.


- Because it's becoming more flexible and responsive. The participation rate is increasing because of all the casuals who otherwise wouldn't be in the employment market at all and unemployment is dropping. You have to have a real hard look to find a negative in that story...

Off the top of my head, the negatives include that welfare benefits have replaced many public service wages (ask yourself which is better), job security is down, and super will be inadequate for a higher portion of the population.


- Because with the advent of desal plants, sustainability questions for population growth are at a minimum decades away, probably half a century at least. I'm not sure Treasury was thinking that far out when taking a look at the CAD.

Water from desal plants cost is extremely high. What other services are compromised to cover that cost?


Personally I find most of these issues as not particularly relevant to the sustainability of the CAD. We're discussing the govt fiscal situation when the topic is international trade? There's a link but it's not the main game, as the Treasury paper makes abundantly clear.

The topic is a sustainable CAD. And what's the purpose of a CAD?
We run a CAD to sustain or grow our std of living on borrowed foreign funds. If our std of living is falling, then the CAD is not sustainable because foreign borrowings are not adequately increasing national income (to fund the deficit), ergo tax revenue, ergo the govt's fiscal health.

State govts have of necessity had to sell off assets to finance operational deficits. They have deficits because tax revenues are not keeping pace with the services we were accustomed to. And that, my friend, is a drop in the std of living.

 
wonder how the treasury measure the gross saving in table 1?
probably if you have a 10% home price rise and you don't spend that money it is considered a 10% savings...:rolleyes:
 
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