I dont think anyone is proposing to put it in a big pile on the ground. If its properly managed, then who cares? It wont BE in the environment.
Australian Greens, a disaster for the worlds climate.
- Thread starter topcropper
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I dont think anyone is proposing to put it in a big pile on the ground. If its properly managed, then who cares? It wont BE in the environment.
How am I a fear-monger?
What am I spreading fear of? Have you got an example of a fear that I am spreading, or is your term "fear-mongering" just another over-used word that greenies like to use; like carbon dioxide?
All I do is dispense property investing tidbits to the willing. I'm very scary.
I hide away in my little hole and have pot-shots at the Greenies from the warmth of my loungeroom, because as a group they are generally fanatical and irrational and cause lots of damage and injury, and live a hypocritical lifestyle.
I'm not out there looking for the tv cameras, and some police horses to throw ball-bearings at, or some policeman's head to pour urine on at the latest protest get-together with all my other professional agitator mates. You know; the same ones you see at every protest where some personal property is being smashed, with no responsibilty being taken for it.
My pot-shots are about the hypocritical greenies who want us all to go without, to stop wrecking the world, save the wales, save the frogs etc, etc, but they all live as modern a life as I do. What's with that? That's what I'm getting at.
Why should I need to provide a link? You can provide a link to virtually any point of view you like from the internet. If you want to find a link that says pure water causes cancer; you'll probaly find one. Doesn't mean a damn.
If you really want to be GREEN, then you need to fore-go all of our wretched societies' trappings.
So, go live in a cave and eat grass, and make your own clothes out of big fig leaves.
The life of the true greenie is a life with no cars, bikes, trains, buses, planes, electricity, gas, plumbing, phones, leather, plastic, money, paper, even steel and copper and aluminium and zinc and nickel (they have to be mined - will you do it?). You get my point.
My guess is that it is impossible to live in this society without using at least one product that wasn't produced in some smoke belching, environment polluting factory paying some poor wretch a pittance a year to work in.
If you can manage to do it, then you can sit in judgement of all the rest of us. But until then, you don't get my ear.
H'mm. I just googled 'greens' again.
Another policy they want to bring in will be to drop diesel fuel tax rebate to farmers, miners and fishermen. The greens used the word 'subsidy' which doesn't surprise me. It's not a subsidy at all.
Great work Bob.
So you want farmers to help to subsidise the road system that our machinery is not even using.Farmers hate the greens because the greens want farmers, miners and fishermen out of the environment.
See ya's.
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Funnily enough, as I was only talking about GM canola yesterday, News today that GM canola will now be allowed in Victoria and NSW. Commonsence is prevailing here, and it is great news for the environment, and will level the playing field for Australian farmers who won't need costly pesticides for canola anymore.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/27/2102585.htm?site=riverina
......."Mr Macdonald says the move will put NSW farmers on a level playing field with overseas farmers because GM canola now accounts for 70 per cent of the global canola market".......
......."He says growing GM canola will have a positive impact on the environment because it reduces the need for pesticides, but NSW Greens MP Ian Cohen is strongly opposed to the move"........
See ya's.
I agree a lot of ultra green hippie radical feral types are two faced.
They survive on welfare paid by us polluting corporates but bag our lifestyle.
Peter
They survive on welfare paid by us polluting corporates but bag our lifestyle.
Peter
Sadly Pete,
not all the greenies you describe are "ultra green hippie radical feral types".
many are highly educated, left wing academics. You know the ones; they rant on all the time, but do not much as they may have to go out in the cold and get dirty.
Yep. Being in LA LA Land you must see them all.
Peter
Peter
Peter, Can you draw a line between these folk of whom you disapprove and Tim Flannery?
He and about 25,000 other "greenies" and sundry hanger-ons are about to descend on Bali for a talk-fest. Only the peons will fly biz class, the rest will fly in in so many private jets that Indonesian authorities don't know where they will park them. This elite will decide among themselves how they will load us up with enough guilt that we will voluntarily step aside from our comforts so they can enjoy theirs.
I watched Tim Flannery at the National Press Club and he made absolutely zero recommendations to combat global warming which would impact ton his middle class's lifestyle.
KB
Your language comes across as getting towards a personal attack. I don't think that was your intention, but it gives some of that impression.
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that there are two extremes- the green hippy and the modern consumer. I don't know that this is correct, and I think there is some ground in the middle.
Bringing the topic back into property investment. I know a block of flats (local) where the owner has installed solar hot water for all his tenants. That's just because of his convictions, that it's better for the enfvironment. That may not be a financial decision (or not)- but one that he's decide to do. It may even be argued that solar hor water turns out to be bad. There's a lot of things which are like that. There's not only shades of black and white, but shades of green too.
If there are people who see that there are problems with the way we do things, they will seek solutions. Some solutions will be good, some won't. But as long as there are enough people looking, and examining all the consequences, between everybody, we will come to a better place. If not for us, for our kids.
But can we please keep slanging away from the forum. It's a popular forum because people enjoy being here.
Yep. Being in LA LA Land you must see them all.
Peter
Yeah Peter,
it's a weird and wonderful place that's for sure.
What is amazing to me here is that in this, the largest economy in the world (for the moment), there is almost no visible promotion of conservation and recycling on the tv, in the papers, on the radio, billboards etc - none.
Occasionally there will be a Global Warming scare-monger campaign on the evening news and current affairs shows, but not a single recycling ad has crossed my eyeballs in 2 and bit years.
The recycling bins in the apartment complexes are non-existent and from what I can tell, people just dump all their rubbish in together and throw it in the communal dumpster.
People in private houses are a bit more conscious from what I've seen, but I think that the Govt has dropped the ball as far as advertising and promotion through the media.
I guess if you are being paid by the car and drug companies, then there is only incentive to show those ads on tv?
Oh yeah; and of course; the Iraq war. There's a bit of money to be made from that as well, so that makes good advertising.
Well said Geoff, just because people try to look into alternatives they suddenly are looked down on as extremists. Maybe we should start a discussion about right wing Family First extremists.
Base load power can be provided by Geothermal, Tidal, hydro and nuclear Power stations.
TC when did I suggest that anybody drinks Roundup? How does it leave the soil after being sprayed on? Did you follow the link I posted.
All these intelligent people with open minds and the best we come up with is Coal,Nuclear power & Fossil fuel agriculture
In regards to Africa, just because i agree with a few policies doesn't mean i want millions of people to starve.
Base load power can be provided by Geothermal, Tidal, hydro and nuclear Power stations.
TC when did I suggest that anybody drinks Roundup? How does it leave the soil after being sprayed on? Did you follow the link I posted.
All these intelligent people with open minds and the best we come up with is Coal,Nuclear power & Fossil fuel agriculture
In regards to Africa, just because i agree with a few policies doesn't mean i want millions of people to starve.
Thanks for this example of stinkin' thinkin'
Only one of the above is suitable for base load power in Australia, these aren't: Geothermal: because it is an unproven technology other than in Greenland (or is that Iceland?) and Kiwiland. Tidal: Still unproven but has two peaks and two troughs in output every day. Hydro: Only works when there's water. It's precious resource must be rationed to suit downstream users and is best used for peaking load or frequency control where it is brilliant.
Besides every respectable greenie has cut his teeth on anti-dam protests.
Did you read about Holland a month or so ago? seems the wind dropped all over the country and they would have had to shut down except that they imported (nuclear) power from France and (dirty coal) power from Germany. Here in Oz we don't HAVE close neighbours to buy from.
In regards to Africa, just because i agree with a few policies doesn't mean i want millions of people to starve.
Adam. The solution is simple. Just buy organic food mate.
The more land that shifts to organic, the less total production. The more people insisting on organic, the more ALL food prices will rise and the more money I will make. I implore you to stop whinging, and do your bit for my bank balance.
We have a choice, and all filthy rich westerners with a concern as to how food has been produced for the last 60 years should buy organic.
You said,....
..................................................."Base load power can be provided by Geothermal, Tidal, hydro and nuclear Power stations".......
Wow, you've sure put some thought into that one. Pretty much sums up my thoughts on how greenies all think.
Hydro? Your joking right? greens-dams-rain.
Fish, that was a great post mate.
See ya's.
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Tough crowd. When did i say i was a greenie?
So far over four pages of posts the "only" correct solution to climate change put forward has been to go nuclear and continue farming with fossil fuels. TC and Sunfish what are your solutions?
TC said
The world needs nuclear power now. It needs it to fill in the gap until nuclear fusion, or geothermal, or beaming microwave power down from satellite orbiting power solar collectors, or some other power source that hasn't even been thought of yet.
And then go on to attack my thought process!
Why are my suggestions taken so personally. Are they wrong or you just don't agree? Why for you so angry?
Sunfish if Geothermal is unproven except in other countries, how does that make nuclear fission proven in Australia? Kenya has three geothermal powerplants and they are a technological power house are they not?
I meant wave power as opposed to tidal sorry my bad
So far over four pages of posts the "only" correct solution to climate change put forward has been to go nuclear and continue farming with fossil fuels. TC and Sunfish what are your solutions?
TC said
The world needs nuclear power now. It needs it to fill in the gap until nuclear fusion, or geothermal, or beaming microwave power down from satellite orbiting power solar collectors, or some other power source that hasn't even been thought of yet.
And then go on to attack my thought process!
Why are my suggestions taken so personally. Are they wrong or you just don't agree? Why for you so angry?
Sunfish if Geothermal is unproven except in other countries, how does that make nuclear fission proven in Australia? Kenya has three geothermal powerplants and they are a technological power house are they not?
I meant wave power as opposed to tidal sorry my bad
Howdy Adam.
I was a bit harsh above. Sorry about that.
Everything is a big compromise hu?
My thoughts on energy, is at least liberal and labor had some solutions, compromises as they are. To me, the greens seriously have no ideas, and just want to depower society.
Oil based agriculture?
I've just tried to show why our food supply multiplied so much in the last century from using oil. What should have happened, is the yield breakthroughs should have guaranteed a safe food supply for ever more, from less land so that the environment could have most of the land. What actually happened is that with excess food, human populations grew exponentially. and still are in lots of places.
I know you don't believe me about my claims about organic. That's fine. It would be good if organic could feed the world. It could with a billion people.
Have you ever grown a vege patch??.... No, serious..... If you had, you must know what happens. Weeds , the bugs come from miles around. Organic canola doesn't even exist because it is just all too hard. Me and dad are farming 1400 hectares by ourselves. No big deal, I don't work any harder than anyone else, and I'm always going away on holidays. But this is what agriculture has become. Consumers wanted it like this. Farms have got bigger and bigger and more efficient because consumers wanted ever and ever cheaper food. Do you really think I walk over my 1400 hectares with a hoe, chipping out weeds? I can't even deliver my grain if it has any weeds in it. It becomes worthless. Go and plant a vege patch if you've never before.
There are only a few food exporting countries. Farmers in these countries make up only a few percent of the population. I think 2% of workers in Australia are farmers. 10% of Australia just voted green Most people have no idea of how food is grown, and the problems involved. I'm just showing people here what does really happen, and why organic will only ever provide a niche food supply, in my opinion.
I have seen greenies out here. They are always city born. They have spent 10 years at uni. They have done bio at uni and think they know about agriculture. They don't even know what is a native or introduced plant. One even thought a patersons curse was lucerne. Farmers have big problems coming up when so many people don't know how things work. There are less and less farmers, and more and more greenies. These people could soon be telling farmers what to do.
See ya's.
I was a bit harsh above. Sorry about that.
Everything is a big compromise hu?
My thoughts on energy, is at least liberal and labor had some solutions, compromises as they are. To me, the greens seriously have no ideas, and just want to depower society.
Oil based agriculture?
I've just tried to show why our food supply multiplied so much in the last century from using oil. What should have happened, is the yield breakthroughs should have guaranteed a safe food supply for ever more, from less land so that the environment could have most of the land. What actually happened is that with excess food, human populations grew exponentially.
and still are in lots of places.I know you don't believe me about my claims about organic. That's fine. It would be good if organic could feed the world. It could with a billion people.
Have you ever grown a vege patch??.... No, serious..... If you had, you must know what happens. Weeds
, the bugs come from miles around. Organic canola doesn't even exist because it is just all too hard. Me and dad are farming 1400 hectares by ourselves. No big deal, I don't work any harder than anyone else, and I'm always going away on holidays. But this is what agriculture has become. Consumers wanted it like this. Farms have got bigger and bigger and more efficient because consumers wanted ever and ever cheaper food. Do you really think I walk over my 1400 hectares with a hoe, chipping out weeds? I can't even deliver my grain if it has any weeds in it. It becomes worthless. Go and plant a vege patch if you've never before. There are only a few food exporting countries. Farmers in these countries make up only a few percent of the population. I think 2% of workers in Australia are farmers. 10% of Australia just voted green
Most people have no idea of how food is grown, and the problems involved. I'm just showing people here what does really happen, and why organic will only ever provide a niche food supply, in my opinion.I have seen greenies out here. They are always city born. They have spent 10 years at uni. They have done bio at uni and think they know about agriculture. They don't even know what is a native or introduced plant. One even thought a patersons curse was lucerne. Farmers have big problems coming up when so many people don't know how things work. There are less and less farmers, and more and more greenies. These people could soon be telling farmers what to do.
See ya's.
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When did I?
TC has explained the problems when greens meddle in farming so I will try the same with power.
In Australia, base load generators are hundreds of generators (gen sets), mainly coal fired, operating with a "set throttle" at or near design capacity. Once hot, these boilers are kept that way until maintenance demands say otherwise. It takes time and money to get a cold boiler up to full pressure.
But demand varies in both the short and medium time frames. In Queensland we have the draglines playing havoc with supply. Every time one of the huge buckets is dragged to fill up with dirt (they strip the overburden, not dig the coal) all the gen sets on the grid groan and slow a little dropping the frequency below the 50hz mandated. The heavy rotors have inertia (fly wheel effect) which helps cushion the shock but extra power does need to be generated to bring things back to normal. That's where "frequency control" comes in. A control room on the grid has this responsibility. In the '70s it was still a pretty manual process and the hydro at Tully Falls often had the job. I loafed around talking to the operators for hours. The operator there would watch his meters and if things were slowing down or speeding up, he would open/close the control valves to the turbines. This is a much more immediate response than controlling the feed rate of coal and waiting for boiler pressure to change. Isn't hydro wonderful?
The slower changes which happen as people come home, switch on lights and stoves needs to be covered as well. This is when "peaking power" is needed and you can't simply feed more coal into a gen set already working flat out. This peaking power must be available then, not tomorrow when the sun comes up. When oil was cheaper they set up Rolls Royce RB211 jet turbines coupled to a generator and started remotely. These burned avtur (kerosene). They have just finished a newer one in Townsville designed to run on gas. But this power is far more expensive than coal fired base power. Again hydro, if available, is great. The same operator just opens his taps and leaves them open till we go to bed. His water is stored till needed.
If it sounds as if I'm a fan of hydro, too right.
When there was plenty of water the Kareeya station generated 105% of design capacity for a month. How good is that? http://www.stanwell.com/frame.asp?ContentURL=/sites/kareeya.asp The Burdekin Dam Stage II involves raising the wall and building a hydro plant at the base of the falls. Lake dalrymple (the ponded water) would then stretch back up the Burdekin for 100 kms to Charters Towers. This dam has been built about 15 years and has overflowed every year since. When in flood a volume of water equal to that of Sydney Harbour goes over the top every day. Harry Butler called the measure sydharbs. With the Feds being billions in surplus and the states raking in money from stamp duties and pokies the money to do this is there we just lack vision.
The generating companies' charter says that they should have "spinning reserve" to replace the largest gen set on line in case of failure. This is expensive and they don't like doing it. In fact at times of peak load there is often just no spare capacity if a few generators are down for overhaul. This, again, is where hydro comes into it's own. You just open the taps if you've got it!
Enter the green agenda. Solar and tidal, by nature, have long periods with no output and have no "fly wheel" effect. These low duty cycles mean poor returns on capital. Wind is unreliable too. If you build one project of each technology with a peak capacity of a megawatt each (3 meg total) you would still not have one meg of reliable base load and you could not guarantee to provide anything for the evening peak.
Nuclear provides the most reliable base load of all and I am in favour.
Disclaimer: I am not an engineer so there may be errors in detail and there are opinions which are strictly IMHO. I have written this to provoke thought and intelligent discussion not as a thesis.
Farming is his life and he believes passionately in what he does…..which is good. Unfortunately sometimes he forgets that other people have differing views, which are equally as warranted and justified. Sometimes we need to walk in another’s shoes before we can fully comprehend their beliefs and why they have them. Our lives tend to form those views and while they might be different to someone else’s it does not make them wrong.
Topcropper knows my thoughts on organic farming and I know his bagging of it is his way of justifying his own practices and that is fine. As I have said previously I’m more than happy to pay higher prices for organic food, but we do need to have that choice. I’m very happy for him to feed the masses because most people are driven by price. As far as I’m concerned the verdict wont be in on current farming practices for many, many years like history has shown. Personally I’m not willing to wait that long, so will make other choices. But for most people its of no concern to them and that is fine to. I don’t bag people for the choices they make, we are all different and have different priorities.
As a lot will remember I recently lost my son to a cancer which they feel may have links to the “SAFE” use of fluoride in our water. My life and my experiences have formed my views. None of which make me a feral hippy type, just a mother who will do the best she can for her family.
Ruby
Hi all,
Many years ago I was the Victorian secretary of NASAA (National Association of Sustainable Agriculture Australia) one of the 3 organic certifying organizations of the time. I was also on the certifying committee.
I am no longer part of that organization, nor would I qualify as an organic farmer.
What I could see happening on the ground was a lot of mining of the soil on many organic farms, especially the larger ones.
I read here peoples complaint against "chemicals", I am sorry to disappoint, but the organic industry also uses "chemicals", just not necessarily man made ones. Many of the 'natural chemicals' are also dangerous, and if used inappropriately would be harmful.
TC is correct in what he states about not being able to feed the world with organic, in fact if every farmer HAD to be organic then we could struggle to feed Australia, and it would certainly be at a higher price than food bought now.
Many of the 'better' organic farms rely on natural inputs from places such as chook farms for there fertilizer. There is nowhere near enough of that to go around if all farms had to use it.
I think that the prospect of mass starvation puts the use of man made chemicals into perspective, again TC is correct in that life spans have been lengthened because of modern farming methods.
bye
Many years ago I was the Victorian secretary of NASAA (National Association of Sustainable Agriculture Australia) one of the 3 organic certifying organizations of the time. I was also on the certifying committee.
I am no longer part of that organization, nor would I qualify as an organic farmer.
What I could see happening on the ground was a lot of mining of the soil on many organic farms, especially the larger ones.
I read here peoples complaint against "chemicals", I am sorry to disappoint, but the organic industry also uses "chemicals", just not necessarily man made ones. Many of the 'natural chemicals' are also dangerous, and if used inappropriately would be harmful.
TC is correct in what he states about not being able to feed the world with organic, in fact if every farmer HAD to be organic then we could struggle to feed Australia, and it would certainly be at a higher price than food bought now.
Many of the 'better' organic farms rely on natural inputs from places such as chook farms for there fertilizer. There is nowhere near enough of that to go around if all farms had to use it.
I think that the prospect of mass starvation puts the use of man made chemicals into perspective, again TC is correct in that life spans have been lengthened because of modern farming methods.
bye
As have modern medical practices.
Thanks for the input Bill. I respect your views on investing, and this matter I do too.
The chook manure???.... This is a point I keep raving on and on about. The chook manure only exists because of oil based grain growing supplying so much excess grain that most of it can be fed to animals. So this manure gets used by the organic food industry. Organics depends on oil too.
If anyone is getting sick of my rantings, just say so, but I love discussing these subjects.
I have been planting again all morning. Only started again yesterday. Just been washed out with rain. Still haven't finished, and now the wheat is nearly ready to go, so we will soon have two jobs to do at once
See ya's.
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