I believe that for the peace of the world, aid should be uncondtional,
if it became conditional, then the countries that provide a fianncial benefit to aus would be getting the aid, and hte 'useless countries' would be getting none
Bali Nine
- Thread starter Scott No Mates
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I believe that for the peace of the world, aid should be uncondtional,
if it became conditional, then the countries that provide a fianncial benefit to aus would be getting the aid, and hte 'useless countries' would be getting none
You must be young! In the olden days we did give aid money unconditionally. The warlords in Africa used it to build and furnish their mansions while their people starved.
I remember reading an article many years ago that correlated aid to certain African nations with orders for Mercedes bought by those same nations.
Although financial aid might not be directly conditional (other than that the money should be used for the purposes it is given), the more financial aid a country provides, the more weight it carries in that region. Why not push our weight around? Does anyone think that Indonesia would do otherwise if it gave aid to Australia?
Looking at the politics and the power struggle within Indonesia I can't see any other outcome other than these 2 will be executed before April.
I have no support or sympathy for any individual that participates in the trade of drugs in any country and, of course, these two knew the risks and consequences of their actions at the time. They were grubs of the lowest order who bullied and coerced others to engage in this dirty trade.
I would have more support for them if they co-operated with the Indonesian drug enforcement to freely give information about the greater grubs up the chain in Indonesia and Australia who financed and organised the importations.
I do agree in the death penalty in some cases but it does cause me internal grief when I think of the inhumanity of state sanctioned killing.
Finally, these guys have changed their behaviour over the years and have grown up, is the change genuine, a cover to avoid death or came because of the fear of the penalty but is now genuine? Who knows, anyway, the change has come it doesn't matter to me how or why the change but they have changed their behaviour - these guys are helping others in a real manner and are making a contribution to Indonesian society.
A complex and very personal issue.
For me it comes down to one question;
Is the world a better place if they live or die?
The answer for me is to let them live and continue to make their part of the world a better place and make up, in some way for the pain they have caused.
All the best
I have no support or sympathy for any individual that participates in the trade of drugs in any country and, of course, these two knew the risks and consequences of their actions at the time. They were grubs of the lowest order who bullied and coerced others to engage in this dirty trade.
I would have more support for them if they co-operated with the Indonesian drug enforcement to freely give information about the greater grubs up the chain in Indonesia and Australia who financed and organised the importations.
I do agree in the death penalty in some cases but it does cause me internal grief when I think of the inhumanity of state sanctioned killing.
Finally, these guys have changed their behaviour over the years and have grown up, is the change genuine, a cover to avoid death or came because of the fear of the penalty but is now genuine? Who knows, anyway, the change has come it doesn't matter to me how or why the change but they have changed their behaviour - these guys are helping others in a real manner and are making a contribution to Indonesian society.
A complex and very personal issue.
For me it comes down to one question;
Is the world a better place if they live or die?
The answer for me is to let them live and continue to make their part of the world a better place and make up, in some way for the pain they have caused.
All the best
well before april!
authorities have said before end of feb.
Once they are moved to the final jail, they ve got as little as 72 hours,
for the record, I watched this last night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdy8A7ks7Gc
And I dont think the two nor this kid deserved the death penalty
I'm sure there a saying about African dictators.
"The bigger the Merc, the bigger the jerk."
I agree.
It damages the relationship to threaten Indonesia that aid is subject to them doing what we want.
It also has hardened their resolve. Threats in this situation don't work, which is what the foreign minister has been saying for weeks.
Bishop is doing her job through diplomatic channels, carefully and respectfully, and Abbott comes out and issues a threat. Poor Bishop must be pulling her hair out.
Maybe the 'we gave you aid' speech was for a domestic audience. Whatever the reason (if there was one) it won't stop the execution and has potential to damage the relationship. Well played Tone! Another great 'captain's call'.
I think the PM has handled this matter poorly. I feel embarrassed to be an Australian, how he mentioned the aid was a terrible and foolish.
I can't believe people are feeling sorry for these two, the Indonesians (and many other Australians like me) probably can't believe the lengths the government is going to to save these to convicted drug traffickers. These guys are / were part of a major international drug trafficking syndicate. If not caught these two would more than likely be extremely wealthy from making peoples lives misery. Not to mention the addicts who would have likely overdosed on their heroin. They would have continued and who knows if they would ever have been caught.
They say the death penalty is not a deterrent, I believe it is and if this saga stops one gullible young adult trafficking drugs through Asia it has set a deterrent, we will never eradicate drugs but I like to see upper echelon drug dealers be punished severely. If that is the death sentence in Asia, well that's the way it is, they knew the risks in that country and got caught. I don't think the mules should be executed or given a life sentence. I personally hope the Indonesian Government let them out after 20 years, that is a fair punishment for their crimes. But the organisers, the ones set to profit......
We expect other people to respect our laws and we should respect theirs, its time for the Australian Government to back off and let the Indonesians exercise their laws.
I can't believe people are feeling sorry for these two, the Indonesians (and many other Australians like me) probably can't believe the lengths the government is going to to save these to convicted drug traffickers. These guys are / were part of a major international drug trafficking syndicate. If not caught these two would more than likely be extremely wealthy from making peoples lives misery. Not to mention the addicts who would have likely overdosed on their heroin. They would have continued and who knows if they would ever have been caught.
They say the death penalty is not a deterrent, I believe it is and if this saga stops one gullible young adult trafficking drugs through Asia it has set a deterrent, we will never eradicate drugs but I like to see upper echelon drug dealers be punished severely. If that is the death sentence in Asia, well that's the way it is, they knew the risks in that country and got caught. I don't think the mules should be executed or given a life sentence. I personally hope the Indonesian Government let them out after 20 years, that is a fair punishment for their crimes. But the organisers, the ones set to profit......
We expect other people to respect our laws and we should respect theirs, its time for the Australian Government to back off and let the Indonesians exercise their laws.
And if you hadn't guest, I voted 'no'.
potentially challenging concept where there is a significant vacuum on human rights
Nothing much essentially wrong with diplomacy on the basis of what one's life beliefs are.
Arent we glad we live in a place where one can have an open opinion and not be flogged or jailed or perhaps even go MIS?
ta
rolf
yes that sums up my thoughts. It's also reckless for him to pick the save them team at everyone's expense when so many people are on the shoot em team
I find the current PM of your country doesn't have the quality that a PM should have. He is just like me
, says what he thinks. And it is not a PM.In this particular case his statement was very silly and showing wrong attitude towards aid. It does sound like a threat, and reflects a kind of corruption behave that most Australians would want to go against it. And it hurts Indonesians, hurts a lot.
Very disappointing even for me, a non Australian.
Agreed but you do not have to say it in public.
Plus that when you gave aid in 2004, I am so sure that you guys morally thought of millions of those affected by the disaster, not to push your weight around. So pls don't say that. Saying that swipe away all of your kindness that I am sure coming from your heart.
While we as a Public are probably mostly in favour of shooting the two guys, a PM's job is one of trying to save them; in my opinion.
If I was TA I would be doing exactly the same; asking them to reconsider based on our long-standing relationship of help and aid and general mutual business relationships, etc.
If the Indonesians are so upset about a request to factor in previous help in order to save them, then maybe then might not want our help for their next disaster when it occurs.
I'd wager that if we offer another $1b after their next disaster; they will accept it; and no doubt a large slice will never see the areas it is meant to help....if you know what I mean.
But I'd wager that if TA is in power when it does; he is not so petty that he wouldn't pledge more help; despite their carrying on at the moment. That's the sort of guy he is.
Personally; I'd rather see any amounts of $1b in aid spent on our folks first, foremost and only.
Looks like the two will be transferred in the next coupke of days via fighter jets
Im assuming its becauzd of the media hype and they dont want people hijacking the transfer
I read somewhere that they were ready IF the australian government decide to physically hijack the flight!!!
I assume the other 9 people will get a standard transfer and not one involving jet fighters
if i was about to be ezecuted i might as well enjoy a flight in a jet fighter!!
Im assuming its becauzd of the media hype and they dont want people hijacking the transfer
I read somewhere that they were ready IF the australian government decide to physically hijack the flight!!!
I assume the other 9 people will get a standard transfer and not one involving jet fighters
if i was about to be ezecuted i might as well enjoy a flight in a jet fighter!!
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And it makes me laugh that the indonesians are trying to raise funds from loose change to return the one billiom in aid we gave them!
Id like to see them raise anywhere near that much
unappreciaitive little brats
Id laugh if another disaster happened and see their reaction if they need aid
Id like to see them raise anywhere near that much
unappreciaitive little brats
Id laugh if another disaster happened and see their reaction if they need aid
The next Aus aid to Indonesia should be rounds for the firing squads
The AFP tagged them as smugglers, Kudos,to the AFP
If the Intel was not correct they would sail through baggage inspection anyway
Tag all drug dealers to countries with death penalty
"you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"
Indonesia kills them, cool solves the problem
Some may say the death penalty is not a deterrent
betcha can't name 1, just 1 in the history of the entire world, executed offender that ever re-offended
Problem: Solved
The AFP tagged them as smugglers, Kudos,to the AFP
If the Intel was not correct they would sail through baggage inspection anyway
Tag all drug dealers to countries with death penalty
"you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"
Indonesia kills them, cool solves the problem
Some may say the death penalty is not a deterrent
betcha can't name 1, just 1 in the history of the entire world, executed offender that ever re-offended
Problem: Solved
