Buyers Agents

[MarkB]

Call me Skeptical...............but.

I don't think you're skeptical.

I think you've already made your mind up (certainly your tone and choice of words suggests that).

this is a information forum,correct??....And who made you the voice of the BA,s????

I'm not the voice of the BAs.

But I've been on this forum long enough to recognise the difference between healthy debate and information sharing and what looks to be a crowd of people with a rope tied in the form of a slipnot.

I can also see how, if I were someone who was time poor and earned good coin, that a BA could be a worthwhile expense. You've said you don't get why people use a BA. What's not to get about that?

And maybe if you dialled down the tone and took the pov that while the services of a BA might not be for you, but they could be for some people, then you might get some more answers. But as it stands you've essentially taken the "guilty until proven innocent" line.

And I think that's in bad taste and not what an information forum is all about.

Even Sim said:

you are NOT welcome to challenge them personally and effectively accuse almost an entire industry of being crooks, which is what you have done

 

[travelbug]

Some of us dislike seeing fellow investors ripped off.

Earlier yesterday, on this thread, I asked BAs to list their clients success stories. I wanted to see specific examples of nous. Although the silence is deafening, I will nevertheless keep an open mind.

Perhaps Propertunity can give us some relief? He seems to be the only BA here who has managed to amass a decent portfolio of his own. The rest - nice as they are - seem to be living off their commissions.

Just because BA's aren't falling over themselves to fulfilling your wishes doesn't mean there aren't many great examples. I know of MANY personally.

It may seem that propertunity is the only BA that has a decent portfolio that in reality is not the case. Pity you are only willing to believe things are true if they are confirmed on a forum.

Ill give you one example just to make you happy.
Purchased 2011
house western Sydney $165,000 (a bit burnt)
Full reno $25,000
Market value after reno $250,000. More now.
Rent $340pw. Cash flow positive.

 

[Jake Milne]

Earlier yesterday, on this thread, I asked BAs to list their clients success stories. I wanted to see specific examples of nous. Although the silence is deafening, I will nevertheless keep an open mind.

I've actively stayed out of this thread. Partially out of voyeuristic interest and also as I enjoy spending my time on here helping people with their challenges instead of trying to prove to people to use advocates.

Advocacy is a viable, valuable service that is becoming more prominent in the market because there is underlying demand. It doesn't bother me if a small number of experienced DIY investors don't see value, there are plenty of people who do and that can't be refuted.

At the moment advocacy may seem like a left wing, controversial service. This is partially because of a tarnished reputation from spruikers in the past, and partially because of some agencies not valuing their customers as well as they could. This can be said of most industries though, especially new ones like social media agencies for example.

Reflecting on the past, I remember a similar debate that raged about 10 years ago around mortgage brokers, and look at where we are now.

Also, more established real estate markets like the U.S and across Europe have agents on both sides, it is a natural evolution to have professional negotiators on each team.


Anyway, if you're interested, read this months Smart Property Investor magazine. There's an article in which I, and several other established advocates contributed to, to help people understand what to look for in a buyer's advocate if you want a good level of service.


PS - One world, you'd be surprised by how much real estate my colleagues and advocates I network with own.

 

[sash]

Travel...bug...do you think this is a great deal??

Let look at the numbers....as number don't lie....

Cost of house $165,000
Stamp Duty $4300 (approximately)
Reno costs $25,000
BA costs $10,000
Legals (includes transfer costs) $1700
4 months holding costs - $4000

That is about $210k.....that is about $40k profit not factoring in any selling costs. You have held it since 2011. Once selling costs are factored in the profit is about $30k....that is not stellar by any means.

Well some of my numbers, I think I can do better on my own...:

DoH in Barrack Heights....bought for $242k in Feb 2011......just had the the originally agent call 4 weeks ago and asked if I would be interesting in selling for $325k+ plus. Nothing has been done other then aobut $1500 repairs over the time I have held it. Incidently...I have this now rented at $370 pw. Still covers all my expenses including my land tax....

With a bit of due diligence it is not too difficult to get 40k in equity with a quick reno.

As to the BAs not responding....the question needs to be asked if you has some difficult conversations if you used their services...would they filter your calls?? I find it hilarious...at the total lack of accountability especially after some highly emotive emails were sent out before by some BAs.

Ill give you one example just to make you happy.
Purchased 2011
house western Sydney $165,000 (a bit burnt)
Full reno $25,000
Market value after reno $250,000. More now.
Rent $340pw. Cash flow positive.

 

[Rolf Latham]

I find it hilarious...at the total lack of accountability especially after some highly emotive emails were sent out before by some BAs.

I wonder if the "sued" lin your earlier version instead of "used" was a freudian slip

As an aside, who does a Private Service Provider need to be accountable to ?

I would have thought, their clients and any legislative licencing body, and maybe their professional association, and ..........?

ta
rolf

 

[Brady]

I wonder if the "sued" lin your earlier version instead of "used" was a freudian slip

As an aside, who does a Private Service Provider need to be accountable to ?

I would have thought, their clients and any legislative licencing body, and maybe their professional association, and ..........?

ta
rolf

I have to agree with this.

They don't need to prove themselves to this community.

The fact they they have been around for a little while suggests that they are going alright

Don't get me wrong I believe they could likely get more customer if they were to freely share some more details. But alot are probably happy dealing with there existing customers and the people they refer to them (probably less sceptical then bunch of people sitting behind keyboards )

At this stage I don't believe that a BA can find better deals where I'm looking, so I'm not engaging in using one. Doesn't mean that they don't have their place.

I think what everyone needs to realise it that there isn't one BA saying that they should always be used, that they are better or that they are for everyone. Most of the BA's themselves are saying that a BA has its place that its not for everyone.

If you don't like what they offer; fees/service simple... don't use them.

 

[CHAOS]

For our personal situ we will use a BA for our next purchase.

For someone who has not used one before and who does not know of someone personally who has - it is a daunting decision. How does one do their due dilligence then before signing/paying up and learning from the good or bad experience they have?

There are a few recommended on this forum. Some current services I use have BA's they recomment. Have they personally used these people for their own purchases - No. But they have clients who may have used them or they have a good networking relationship - refer each other business? These are still arms length recommendations.

There are good and bad in everything. Some comments are that BAs should not have to prove themself, the user should just trust. However, if that is the case when we purchase a property - why do we do an inspection, why don't we take the agent's word for it, why do we have a solictor look over the contract. Due diligence - reducing the risk one is taking.

So knowing what a good BA will do throughout the process is beneficial. Examples without naming BA's of not so good service or warning signs is also helpful to a newbie. They can then make an informed decision. Similar to advice given here when someone says my banker wants to use my PPOR as security and feedback on here generally is Don't X-coll and reasons given.

Comments have been made about pros/cons of banker and broker. Some will push a certain product for their benefit or what some have called "churn". Do some BA's do this? How do you find one that will put your needs first. Finding a good deal, not just a deal that will do and move on? We are talking about spending thousands of dollars here.

If you are unfortunate to have a less than positive experience and are not served well by a BA. It is not their fault - it will be yours for not asking the right questions for not doing your own DD.

It is not about giving services a bashing. It is about providing information that can help people make informed decisions.

JAKE - thankyou for the ref to the article. I will drop into the newsagent this eveing and have a read.

 

[Sim]

There are good and bad in everything. Some comments are that BAs should not have to prove themself, the user should just trust.

No ... we are saying that a BA should not have to prove themselves in an open (and largely anonymous) discussion forum to people who have already made up their minds (in the negative) about the benefits of buyers agents.

A BA should definitely have to justify their skills and their fees to potential clients - but privately.

Testimonials and references from happy clients are a good way to do this - although obviously they are typically cherry-picked from the best results.

There are other ways to prove their credentials and abilities too - but there is always a degree of trust required when dealing with any service provider.

If you are choosing a BA ... I suggest you select a short list from references or recommendations and then interview them. They need to prove themselves capable of meeting your needs before you should hand over any money to them - just like any other service provider.

 

[sash]

Rolf....this is a IP forum.....so discussions like this are appropriate.

As for they needing to prove things well ....I am sure that that people want to know about true experiences about companies...that is why there are sites like Product Review.

I think it is healthy to discuss things openly.....only one BA has engaged. No comment from other BAs....one can only infer what this means...as no comment was given. Like on the news shows....we approached BAs but no comment was forth coming.

As for letting industry organizations self regulating...lets leave that one alone. You know my views on that.

The one thing which is starting to really annoy me is the amount of commercial promotion on SS. This was originally a couple of investors sharing ideas...now I increasingly see people driving their own agendas with a congo line of followers.

Do we need a pied piper??

I people want to provide services then they also need to be subject to public scrutinity...be it good or bad....

I wonder if the "sued" lin your earlier version instead of "used" was a freudian slip

As an aside, who does a Private Service Provider need to be accountable to ?

I would have thought, their clients and any legislative licencing body, and maybe their professional association, and ..........?

ta
rolf

I have to agree with this.

They don't need to prove themselves to this community.

The fact they they have been around for a little while suggests that they are going alright

Don't get me wrong I believe they could likely get more customer if they were to freely share some more details. But alot are probably happy dealing with there existing customers and the people they refer to them (probably less sceptical then bunch of people sitting behind keyboards )

At this stage I don't believe that a BA can find better deals where I'm looking, so I'm not engaging in using one. Doesn't mean that they don't have their place.

I think what everyone needs to realise it that there isn't one BA saying that they should always be used, that they are better or that they are for everyone. Most of the BA's themselves are saying that a BA has its place that its not for everyone.

If you don't like what they offer; fees/service simple... don't use them.

 

[Sim]

I think it is healthy to discuss things openly.....only one BA has engaged. No comment from other BAs....one can only infer what this means...as no comment was given. Like on the news shows....we approached BAs but no comment was forth coming.

I think there is a difference between discussing "things" (meaning ideas, concepts) openly and discussing the capabilities of individual service providers. If they choose to engage, that this their decision and a choice not to engage does not imply impropriety, incapability, or anything else.

Unlike when demanding a response from a government department, or some other entity from which it is reasonable that there be public engagement - there is no such obligation on the part of private service providers ... so the whole "no comment was forth coming" is completely meaningless and again sets a completely unreasonable expectation.

As for letting industry organizations self regulating...lets leave that one alone. You know my views on that.

Buyers Agents aren't self-regulated ... at least not in NSW - they are regulated by the NSW Dept of Fair Trading - not completely sure about the other states, but I'm pretty sure that they are regulated by the same bodies who regulate real estate agents.

The one thing which is starting to really annoy me is the amount of commercial promotion on SS. This was originally a couple of investors sharing ideas...now I increasingly see people driving their own agendas with a congo line of followers.

We have rules against advertising or soliciting business on the forums. If there are posts which you feel are inappropriately commercial, please report them and we will take action.

You probably don't see the large number of commercial posts which get removed every week - the moderators are pretty good at acting on that, we take our non-commercial position quite seriously. But again, please report anything you think is inappropriate.

I people want to provide services then they also need to be subject to public scrutinity...be it good or bad....

No - they do not "need" to be subject to public scrutiny. I'm not saying there can't or shouldn't ever been public scrutiny, but there is no implied "right" to scrutinise a private company and the services they offer.concern anybody else.

 

[sash]

SIM...I have a question which is of a delicate nature...what happens if the moderators have commercial interests themselves...i.e. BA, mortgage broking services, etc.? Do these mods have a conflict of interest..have they been veted for this?

All companies offering services are subject to scrutiny in some way or form. That is how the work works....

A lot of industry organizations are through clever marketing seeming to give the impression that they regulate their members. Complaining to them will have less teeth than to govt departments....

I will let you infer where I am going with this....

I think there is a difference between discussing "things" (meaning ideas, concepts) openly and discussing the capabilities of individual service providers. If they choose to engage, that this their decision and a choice not to engage does not imply impropriety, incapability, or anything else.

Unlike when demanding a response from a government department, or some other entity from which it is reasonable that there be public engagement - there is no such obligation on the part of private service providers ... so the whole "no comment was forth coming" is completely meaningless and again sets a completely unreasonable expectation.



Buyers Agents aren't self-regulated ... at least not in NSW - they are regulated by the NSW Dept of Fair Trading - not completely sure about the other states, but I'm pretty sure that they are regulated by the same bodies who regulate real estate agents.



We have rules against advertising or soliciting business on the forums. If there are posts which you feel are inappropriately commercial, please report them and we will take action.

You probably don't see the large number of commercial posts which get removed every week - the moderators are pretty good at acting on that, we take our non-commercial position quite seriously. But again, please report anything you think is inappropriate.



No - they do not "need" to be subject to public scrutiny. I'm not saying there can't or shouldn't ever been public scrutiny, but there is no implied "right" to scrutinise a private company and the services they offer.concern anybody else.

 

[MarkB]

I will let you infer where I am going with this....

To me it looks like you're questioning the integrity of any moderator who might also be the provider of a commercial "service" (and, if so, that would mean that you're also questioning the existence of this very forum).

Is that what you're doing?

All companies offering services are subject to scrutiny in some way or form.

This thread went well beyond scrutiny as soon as comments were made which cast the entire BA industry (and anyone stupid enough to use them, apparently) in a negative light.

 

[Sim]

SIM...I have a question which is of a delicate nature...what happens if the moderators have commercial interests themselves...i.e. BA, mortgage broking services, etc.? Do these mods have a conflict of interest..have they been veted for this?

Of all the moderators on this forum, the only one I believe who provides services to the property industry is Rolf Latham, mortgage broker.

Do you know Rolf?

Do you have any reason to believe he has a conflict of interest or has ever acted in anything other than an open and honest manner on this forum?

Do you have any grounds for questioning his integrity?

If you have an issue, don't post cryptic messages on the forum, contact myself or Ian Somers directly and make your case. Otherwise I suggest you think very carefully about what you are posting and the implications of doing so.

All companies offering services are subject to scrutiny in some way or form. That is how the work works....

Perhaps, but as I've said, their is NO obligation for them to engage with you on the forum under the terms that you demand.

A lot of industry organizations are through clever marketing seeming to give the impression that they regulate their members. Complaining to them will have less teeth than to govt departments....

NSW Dept of Fair trading is not an industry organisation - nor are the various govt departments in other states which regulate the real estate industry. There is regulation here - not sure what your problem is?

I will let you infer where I am going with this....

I have no idea what you are trying to infer ... be explicit about your issue or give it a rest.

 

[Rolf Latham]

Do these mods have a conflict of interest..have they been veted for this?

I will let you infer where I am going with this....

I guess the obvious retort is

Please explain and expand on your inference ?

Those that know me, know I have a thick skin, us debt merchants have been accused of all sorts of things, so u wont be the first or the last.

ta
rolf

 

[sash]

Boys chill...I did not know that Rolf was a moderator!

Well I know now ..thank SIM...my query was to simply ask the question if the mods are independent...then how is this possible if they have commercial interests.

It is very similar to where I am seeing you SIM defend BAs...but no response from BAs. I do not know Rolf from a bar of soap so I cannot comment.

It is very interesting.....how this is proceeding.

There seems to be a real club here....it would make the old NSW labor party proud!

To me it looks like you're questioning the integrity of any moderator who might also be the provider of a commercial "service" (and, if so, that would mean that you're also questioning the existence of this very forum).

Is that what you're doing?



This thread went well beyond scrutiny as soon as comments were made which cast the entire BA industry (and anyone stupid enough to use them, apparently) in a negative light.

I guess the obvious retort is

Please explain and expand on your inference ?

Those that know me, know I have a thick skin, us debt merchants have been accused of all sorts of things, so u wont be the first or the last.

ta
rolf

 

[devank]

I think all of you are wasting your time and energy.

 

[travelbug]

Travel...bug...do you think this is a great deal??

Let look at the numbers....as number don't lie....

Cost of house $165,000
Stamp Duty $4300 (approximately)
Reno costs $25,000
BA costs $10,000 $5,000
Legals (includes transfer costs) $1700
4 months holding costs - 5 weeks$4000 $1,000

That is about $210k...$202,000..that is about $40k profit not factoring in any selling costs $50K low estimate. I like to be conservative in my estimates. Sales at the time were higher.. You have held it since 2011. Once selling costs are factored in the profit is about $30k....that is not stellar by any means. Not just an equity play. CF+ also

Well some of my numbers, I think I can do better on my own...: Yes agree SOME. This is only one example. I diudn't say no-one could do better. I simply gave that as one example. This was haned to me on a plate. No hours scouring the internet. That in itself was a money saver for me.

DoH in Barrack Heights....bought for $242k in Feb 2011......just had the the originally agent call 4 weeks ago and asked if I would be interesting in selling for $325k+ plus. Nothing has been done other then aobut $1500 repairs over the time I have held it. Incidently...I have this now rented at $370 pw. Still covers all my expenses including my land tax....

With a bit of due diligence it is not too difficult to get 40k in equity with a quick reno.

As to the BAs not responding....the question needs to be asked if you has some difficult conversations if you used their services...would they filter your calls?? I find it hilarious...at the total lack of accountability especially after some highly emotive emails were sent out before by some BAs.

I'm happy with it.

 

[Sim]

my query was to simply ask the question if the mods are independent...then how is this possible if they have commercial interests.

Why do they have to be independent?

The moderators volunteer their time to help build and maintain this community.

Casting aspersions on them by questioning their integrity, even if only in general terms, is not something I will tolerate.

The moderators were chosen for their willingness to help, their contribution to the community and their posting style.

Ian and I support our moderators 100% and if you have a problem with the moderation, you need to bring it directly to us.

There is no basis for asking about the independence of moderators - all moderator actions are transparent and can be undone if we decide that the action was not necessary or inappropriate.

This is a community for the discussion of real estate investment. We do not give financial advice, we do not make any promises or assertions as to the quality of the posts you'll find here by forum members - there is no need for "independence" from commercial interests, since there is no selling allowed on the forum.

If you have a problem with the action of any moderators, bring your complaints to Ian or myself, otherwise I'll ask you to cease your vilification of the moderators without any evidence.

It is very similar to where I am seeing you SIM defend BAs...but no response from BAs.

I've already explained plenty of times why they aren't responding - I defend them because this is a topic I know something about and because I dislike the unreasonable tone taken by several member in this thread.

It is very interesting.....how this is proceeding.

There seems to be a real club here....it would make the old NSW labor party proud!

There is no club. There is a team of moderators who have volunteered their time for years. They were chosen by Ian and myself and by the other moderators at the time they were appointed.

I will defend anyone from unreasonable attacks from people who seem to have an unreasonable expectation about what to expect on the forum.

Now, if you have specific accusations to make, please make them specifically - I will not tolerate any further veiled suggestion of impropriety from you sash. This is your last warning.

 

[S.T]

Is it possible to hire a BA on an hourly rate? If so, what do you think they'd be worth?

 

[Sim]

Is it possible to hire a BA on an hourly rate? If so, what do you think they'd be worth?

Interesting question - I don't know of any who work on an hourly rate, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

Working backwards, if a BA was charging $10,000 ... at an equivalent rate of, say, $200 per hour, you'd expect 50 hours of work from them (over 6 days of work, full time!).

I'm not sure if that is reasonable or not. I know I used to spend a LOT of time looking at IPs ... especially when driving around to opens, talking to agents, scouring the internet, etc.

Like most service industries, there is a risk management exercise in setting prices.

If you do fixed prices, you have to manage the risk that you end up spending more time delivering the service than you had allowed for in your price, thus eating into your profit (and potentially leaving your out of pocket).

If you do time-and-materials (hourly rate), you have to manage the risk that the client will end up needing to pay a lot more than they had anticipated to get the result they wanted and not be happy about it.

There are pros-and-cons in both strategies and a lot of arguments about both in any discussion about the management of services businesses. I don't think it's really unique to BAs in that regard.

The overall difficulty is managing expectations - you need to look at the agreements BAs use in relation to how much work they are prepared to do for the fixed price they charge. Then consider how their expectation/risk management might change if you to pay by the hour instead.

You should just contact some BAs and ask them if they'll do an hourly rate