carbon tax repeal

Plenty of people still support pricing Carbon

I'm sure you are right, in fact millions probably would...but you are missing the point of democracy entirely.

Those "plenty of people" are in the minority.

The majority of people do not support a price of Carbon.

You're not one of these people that won't acknowledge there was a change of Govt ??
 
I'm sure you are right, in fact millions probably would...but you are missing the point of democracy entirely.

Those "plenty of people" are in the minority.

The majority of people do not support a price of Carbon.

You're not one of these people that won't acknowledge there was a change of Govt ??

Umm! Yes there was a change of government. I don't know why you would suggest that I would think there wasn't??? Unless you are making a thinly veiled insult.
Anyhow it's up to the Government to prosecute their case in parliament.
 
Yes there was a change of government.

Jolly good....some people won't accept it....reference those few tens of thousands of people protesting on this very subject over the weekend.


it's up to the Government to prosecute their case in parliament.

Not a snowball's chance.

Everyone in Parliament has a fixed view already...based on what they took to the election. I'd be blown away with a feather if any of the elected Members or Senators changed their stance on what they took to the election based merely on listening to debate in Parliament.

Arguing and "prosecuting their case" will make zero difference. Both sides know it.

Numbers on the floor of both the HoR and the Senate is the only relevant thing. We're back to the numbers again.
 
Unless you are making a thinly veiled insult.

Typical response from a party faithful in denial.

Get over it Crab...it will be the best thing you can do for yourself and your country.

What I dont get is the fleeing like rats off a sinking ship by the pollies but the party faithful voters still standing strong (which I admire BTW).

Labor need to bunk down and get organised into something that resembles an opposition (with honesty and viable policy) or it will be banished to the sidelines for ever and a day.
 
Jolly good....some people won't accept it....reference those few tens of thousands of people protesting on this very subject over the weekend.
Protesting is a way which allows people to say that they disagree with something. It's their right to say so. Or were there no protests at all while the ALP was in power?

Many of the people were demonstrating for climate action, which is something the Libs support. Some wanted the ALP policy (aka carbon tax) to be retained, which obviously won't happen, but the protests, from the small coverage I saw, were for action on climate change generally, and not carbon tax specifically.
 
Plenty of people still support pricing Carbon rather than paying polluters.
The sad thing is that folk still believe that Carbon - CO2 is heating up the planet.

Heat increases the CO2 level, and apparently the planet isn't heating up anyway.

You can have as much CO2 as you like; it will mean diddly squat.

So, to say that businesses spewing out CO2 are "polluters" is a joke, and the whole bloody scheme will do absolutely zero towards changing/lowering the world's temp anyway.

Incidentally, all those evil pics and footage they show of white shoit belching out into the atmosphere - most of those joints are belching steam.

A slight misrepresentation of the truth.

But go for it; spend hours, weeks, years of angst for nothing, protests and the like, shoit loads of cash...whatever. I don't care.
 
Protesting is a way which allows people to say that they disagree with something. It's their right to say so.

Absolutely !!

It's a very poor substitute mind you, compared with actually submitting a valid vote on election day along with every other registered adult, but hey, if you can't win the election, as I said, it is a very poor substitute nevertheless.

Everyone's right to say so was validly expressed 2 months ago Geoff. That's over 14 million adults. The decision was made then. Not some tiny little 60,000 as reported in the media.

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!
 
The part I'm upset about is that viewers of ABC & listeners of Triple J predicted a mass exodus to other countries if Liberal were to win the election. Talk about broken promises :(
 
Slightly off topic. I noticed a couple of recent journal articles from NOAA and SCRIPPS published in Nature that may be useful to anyone interested in the climate science. They cover some of the concerns raised by earlier posts and recent media reports regarding departure from "usual" variability in weather. Also, attached are some commentary on the articles for those who don't like primary literature.
 

Attachments

  • Projected timing of departure from recent variability.pdf
    5.3 MB · Views: 36
  • Recent global-warming hiatus -Nature article.pdf
    4.2 MB · Views: 44
  • The cause of the pause-commentary.pdf
    545.2 KB · Views: 31
  • The timing of climate change-commentary.pdf
    314.8 KB · Views: 30
  • Climate warming or cooling.pdf
    245.8 KB · Views: 34
Also attached is an article on Geoengineering. Recently senior CSIRO staff were called in to discuss geoengineering with the new government. Not something that I'm all that keen on but there you go.
 

Attachments

  • A case for climate engineering.pdf
    485 KB · Views: 123
Absolutely !!

It's a very poor substitute mind you, compared with actually submitting a valid vote on election day along with every other registered adult, but hey, if you can't win the election, as I said, it is a very poor substitute nevertheless.

Everyone's right to say so was validly expressed 2 months ago Geoff. That's over 14 million adults. The decision was made then. Not some tiny little 60,000 as reported in the media.

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!
I'm disappointed that you've chosen to respond to just one part of my post and ignored the other bits. Perhaps I didn't explain that so well.

As far as I can tell, the Libs support action on climate change. It's a different form than carbon tax, but it is taking action. While some people want the carbon tax retained, others just want to make sure that there is still going to be action. While there has been an election and there is a result, despite what you think of me, I do know that that result is set in concrete until there is another election. However, Tony would be a very poor politician indeed if he had every idea and policy already formed in a way that could not be changed- and he has shown that he is a very good politician.

People have the right to make their feelings known, no matter what the election result. It's the constant debate which makes a democracy. You cannot say that because there has been an election, everybody should now be quiet and to follow the leader.

When the ALP was in power, people debated and people protested. Sometimes more, sometimes less, than the "tiny little 60,000". People continue to debate and protest. Suddenly it's all wrong? And people who say that it's OK to debate or protest should now be belittled? The election result is in, so everybody who disagrees is just blind to the fact that a government has changed hands?
 
Don't be disappointed Geoff. I cannot control how you feel....that's solely in your court how you respond as an adult.

More than happy to try and answer your questions, although as a private anonymous citizen I am under no obligation to answer anything at all. Some of your questions are completely loaded and make no sense whatsoever.

Disclaimer up front - I freely admit I am no expert in any matter whatsoever other than my very specific and narrow field of engineering endeavour. From what I gather from reading technical papers on the subject, there seems to be this ridiculous CV slanging match where Emeritus Professors on both sides of the argument are tearing each other down and saying they are not qualified to have an opinion.....so heaven help the lay person on the street....who votes.

As far as I can tell, the Libs support action on climate change. It's a different form than carbon tax, but it is taking action.

I think that's why they called their policy "Direct Action". Their political opponents however are doing their level best to undermine and discredit the policy before it even gets off the ground. No surprises there. More will undoubtedly unfold in the coming months.


While some people want the carbon tax retained, others just want to make sure that there is still going to be action.

The challenge of a democracy Geoff. Some adults want it this way, other adults want it that way. I guess that's why we have elections and pursue the option the majority voted for. Quite reasonable I would have thought.


While there has been an election and there is a result, despite what you think of me, I do know that that result is set in concrete until there is another election.

My personal opinion of you Geoff has nothing to do with the election result ??

The result is set in stone, and is one of the very few things in this debate that is absolute, hence why I keep referring to it. I don't think there was a pamphlet or a policy agenda that didn't state upfront, that if the coalition got voted in, they would scrap the Carbon Tax. Anyone who stands up and says they had no idea the coalition, if voted in, was going to scrap the Carbon Tax as their first piece of introduced legislation is having a lend of themselves.


However, Tony would be a very poor politician indeed if he had every idea and policy already formed in a way that could not be changed- and he has shown that he is a very good politician.

The policies and ideas were published for all to see before the public went and voted on the Saturday. There was a stark choice between the two major political parties in this area. Hopefully the Libs and Nats follow through with what they promised to do before the election. It's political death-on-a-stick to do otherwise, as Julia Gillard found out.


People have the right to make their feelings known, no matter what the election result. It's the constant debate which makes a democracy. You cannot say that because there has been an election, everybody should now be quiet and to follow the leader.

Never said anything of the sort. I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​

What you've ignored is also what I said, whereby I stated that the election captured the definitive opinion of 14.0 million voters which can be verified and studied and interrogated, rather than these weekend protests which captured the opinions of 0.06 million voters which are to say the least not verifiable in any respect. There is a massive difference Geoff.


When the ALP was in power, people debated and people protested. Sometimes more, sometimes less, than the "tiny little 60,000". People continue to debate and protest. Suddenly it's all wrong?

Not at all, but the end effect is what ?? I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​


And people who say that it's OK to debate or protest should now be belittled?

Not at all, I don't know where the "belittled" tag comes from, that seems to be a favourite of yours throughout the years.... but the end effect is what ?? I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​


The election result is in, so everybody who disagrees is just blind to the fact that a government has changed hands?

Not at all....but their actions certainly don't point to going along with the majority of Australians. No-one seems to have asked the obvious question.....

What was the point of the Get Up / Green / Labor organised protest last weekend ??

I have read a broad cross section of the protest media coverage from all of the cities across Australia, and my impression was a general slagging off of Tony, witty put downs on billboards....they were running competitions for the smarmiest campaign poster similar to your Subway poster board....and a general calling for the elected Govt to enact the exact opposite of the policies that the Liberal / National Govt took to the general population, were voted in by the majority of Australians and are now introducing into Parliament due to their election success.

As I said previously, the weekend protest looked more like a belated Labor Party rally with all of the red shirts, a hangover from the election probably...dunno.

Seriously, what was the point ??
 
The most simple and obvious way to reduce CO2 in Australia is to reduce our population growth. Why is it that the same people most passionate about climate change are also the ones who would fill the place up with people the quickest?


See ya's.
 
Don't be disappointed Geoff. I cannot control how you feel....that's solely in your court how you respond as an adult.
I don't know why the condescension is needed.

More than happy to try and answer your questions, although some of your questions are completely loaded and make no sense whatsoever.
Nor the put down.
Disclaimer up front - I freely admit I am no expert in any matter whatsoever other than my very specific and narrow field of engineering endeavour. From what I gather from reading technical papers on the subject, there seems to be this ridiculous CV slanging match where Emeritus Professors on both sides of the argument are tearing each other down and saying they are not qualified to have an opinion.....so heaven help the lay person on the street....who votes.

I think that's why they called their policy "Direct Action". Their political opponents however are doing their level best to undermine and discredit the policy before it even gets off the ground. No surprises there. More will undoubtedly unfold in the coming months.
That's what political opponents do, and always will. No matter what side.

I've looked and haven't found a great deal on what the Lib policy will be. So far I haven't seen any steps towards the 15,000 strong green army. I hope that it will happen.
The challenge of a democracy Geoff. Some adults want it this way, other adults want it that way. I guess that's why we have elections and pursue the option the majority voted for. Quite reasonable I would have thought.
I'm not saying to the contrary. What I am saying is that on both sides of the fence, there is agreement that some action needs to be taken on climate change. That action definitely involves removal of the carbon tax- that has been quite clear from the start. But I haven't seen a great deal of detail, apart from the one source I've mentioned, what form that direct action will take. It does appear that there may not be complete agreement. If that is the case, there's still room for debate on what form the direct action will take.
My personal opinion of you Geoff has nothing to do with the election result ??

The result is set in stone, and is one of the very few things in this debate that is absolute, hence why I keep referring to it. I don't think there was a pamphlet or a policy agenda that didn't state upfront, that if the coalition got voted in, they would scrap the Carbon Tax. Anyone who stands up and says they had no idea the coalition, if voted in, was going to scrap the Carbon Tax as their first piece of introduced legislation is having a lend of themselves.
I didn't say there would be a carbon tax. What I said was "the Libs support action on climate change. It's a different form than carbon tax, but it is taking action."
The policies and ideas were published for all to see before the public went and voted on the Saturday. Their was a stark choice between the two major political parties in this area. Your language in your statement is very loose, anyone could drive a truck through it, so I cannot be more specific.
I'm trying to clarify. The carbon tax is dead. Long live direct action. Whatever form that takes.

I haven't seen very much at all of the Libs plan. What I have seen is also very loose.
Never said anything of the sort. I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​

What you've ignored is also what I said, whereby I stated that the election captured the definitive opinion of 14.0 million voters which can be verified and studied and interrogated, rather than these weekend protests which captured the opinions of 0.06 million voters which are to say the least not verifiable in any respect. There is a massive difference Geoff.


Not at all, but the end effect is what ?? I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​


Not at all, I don't know where the "belittled" tag comes from, that seems to be a favourite of yours throughout the years.... but the end effect is what ?? I refer you to my previous post....

Yes they have a right to protest - more power to them !!​

Not at all....but their actions certainly don't point to going along with the majority of Australians.
Whether you voted ALP or Liberal you wanted some sort of action on climate change. Both parties presented their options which acknowledged that there's action necessary- the difference was just the form it took.
No-one seems to have asked the obvious question.....

What was the point of the Get Up / Green / Labor organised protest last weekend ??
The point of any discussion or protest is to say what you think. I don't see a lot of detail in the direct action plan yet. I think that there's many who would like to ensure that has been said does get followed up.
 
At present it's looking unlikely that the government will get the CT repeal bills through the current senate.

Assuming the government doesn't get it through the current senate and fulfils the criteria for a DD but doesn't call a DD election can they rely on this trigger in the 'new' senate? Or in that case would they need to start again with the new senate? For it to be a trigger after July would the clock reset and they need to go through the process with the new senate?
 
At present it's looking unlikely that the government will get the CT repeal bills through the current senate.

Assuming the government doesn't get it through the current senate and fulfils the criteria for a DD but doesn't call a DD election can they rely on this trigger in the 'new' senate? Or in that case would they need to start again with the new senate? For it to be a trigger after July would the clock reset and they need to go through the process with the new senate?

It doesn't matter. Section 57 of the Constitution reads:

If the House of Representatives passes any proposed law, and the Senate rejects or fails to pass it, or passes it with amendments to which the House of Representatives will not agree, and if after an interval of three months the House of Representatives, in the same or the next session, again passes the proposed law with or without any amendments which have been made, suggested, or agreed to by the Senate, and the Senate rejects or fails to pass it, or passes it with amendments to which the House of Representatives will not agree, the Governor-General may dissolve the Senate and the House of Representatives simultaneously. But such dissolution shall not take place within six months before the date of the expiry of the House of Representatives by effluxion of time.

It also then talks about a joint sitting of both Houses deciding the issue in the event that the bill fails a third time in the Senate following an election.

Of course, having a trigger and using it are two different things. Kevin Rudd had a trigger but decided not to use it. The last DD was in 1987 over the Australia Card, before then 1983 and then 1975 before that (there were 21 trigger bills!). We are probably overdue to have one now!
 
I haven't seen very much at all of the Libs plan. What I have seen is also very loose.
Whether you voted ALP or Liberal you wanted some sort of action on climate change. Both parties presented their options which acknowledged that there's action necessary- the difference was just the form it took.
The point of any discussion or protest is to say what you think. I don't see a lot of detail in the direct action plan yet. I think that there's many who would like to ensure that has been said does get followed up.

The central plank of direct action is the Emission Reduction Fund which would go through the usual Green paper, White paper process before legislation is submitted to Parliament.
Initial public consultation seems to have ended yesterday, so on to the next stage of that process presumably.

I found a brief rundown of what we might expect the fund to look like here.

"Perhaps the smart advocates of an effective, efficient and functioning market mechanism to mitigate climate change in Australia should be putting their efforts into ensuring that this second limb of the DAP is as well designed and effective as possible. The Carbon Pricing King is Dead, Long live the Carbon Pricing King!
 
OK, I'll leave the rest alone, other than this bit.

The point of any discussion or protest is to say what you think.

What I've pointed out previously is that the very best, and most conclusive way for reasonable adults to express their opinions on a range of topics is to vote during a general election, supporting the political representative that most closely aligns with your ideals / thoughts / opinions on any and all topics.

That's what the entire country has just been through. That's why I don't understand what the point of the demonstration / protest was, other than to highlight that their viewpoint is definitely in the minority.

The salient point is that the majority of folk around Australia disagree with their views.

Unless of course they are relying on the ol' "squeaky wheel gets the oil" principle. If you jump up and down long enough and loud enough as a special interest group, then someone is bound to take notice, and hopefully your concerns can over-ride the silent majority who voted differently, for a different course of action in a general election.
 
The central plank of direct action is the Emission Reduction Fund which would go through the usual Green paper, White paper process before legislation is submitted to Parliament.
Initial public consultation seems to have ended yesterday, so on to the next stage of that process presumably.

I found a brief rundown of what we might expect the fund to look like here.

"Perhaps the smart advocates of an effective, efficient and functioning market mechanism to mitigate climate change in Australia should be putting their efforts into ensuring that this second limb of the DAP is as well designed and effective as possible. The Carbon Pricing King is Dead, Long live the Carbon Pricing King!
Thanks for the info.

I needed to subscribe to that publication to read it. But it provided the clue to read further- looking for the Emissions Reduction Fund.

It looks as if it has some good possibilities- there's some positive directions there. As you say public consultation has just finished. So there's still a point in people saying that there's importance in acting on climate change- in finding an alternative to the carbon tax.
 
Thanks for the info.

I needed to subscribe to that publication to read it. But it provided the clue to read further- looking for the Emissions Reduction Fund.

It looks as if it has some good possibilities- there's some positive directions there. As you say public consultation has just finished. So there's still a point in people saying that there's importance in acting on climate change- in finding an alternative to the carbon tax.

Does the Google link get through the paywall for you?
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessgreen.com%2Fbg%2Fopinion%2F2293636%2Frepeal-of-the-australian-carbon-pricing-mechanism-or-a-clever-case-of-rebranding&ei=xySLUo2TL-iwiQf7pYGQAw&usg=AFQjCNFPSiHCv1Jy3gL0il_1rXl80xBqDQ&sig2=0n59fZrd3XDWyHYUfM6UIA&bvm=bv.56643336,d.dGI&cad=rja
 
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