Carbon tax

I posted it for people that cant completely get their head around the concept.

Why is almost every post of yours a hysterical prediction? Are you a Tony Abbott mini-me?

Its a simple tax on major polluters with some compensation and tax reform thrown in. Ist not the end of the world guys. So, please stop carrying on like it is.

So what's your point evand. Why provide a link to government advertising for the Carbon Tax. If you believe government costings then good on you. To-date Labor has been abysmal with their accuracy on any costings on virtually every policy, and have wasted billions in the process.
Tell me, is this costing as accurate as their costing was on the Solar Rebates Scheme??:rolleyes:, which with cost blowouts had to be wound back.

Anyway, I'll let you greenies panic about "Global Warming". But don't come back to me in 5yrs when a large portion of the population are feeling the financial pain, and tell me how heartless I am for laughing at their pain cause they wanted Labor and Green.
 
Hey evand, I like the Gillard quote this morning about the takeover of Macarthur Coal by an overseas company.

"Why are they interested in the business, because they are smart business people and they know there is a good future in coal"

Haha, wasn't the Carbon Tax supposed to reduce the reliance on Coal. Now she's trying to use the takeover as some sort of good news that for the Carbon Tax will have little impact of the Coal industry.

good future in coal exactly. The world needs Coal, and all the green "Warming" panic will do nothing to stop that.
I'm sure however you don't see the Gillard hypocricy here.
If you need any more proof that Carbon Tax is more about wealth re-distribution rather than Climate Change, then here it is.

Love it. I only wish I had bought MCC shares last night. They will be up 40+% this morning.
 
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If so, why are imports and our foreign policies apparently spared from this CT exercise? Let's not be hypocrites and tax local polluters on the climate, but allow foreign polluters immunity, which defeats the purpose of the CT.

Best point I've read in this thread.
 
.....so, after all of this "debate"....doesn't look like anyone has changed their initial opinion. Didn't think they would. All sides have one thing in common at least, they have been utterly unconvincing to the other side.


Those who vote green still do.

Those who vote Labor still do.

Those who vote Liberal still do.


The only thing to do now is wait for the Pollies to vote on the thing to see if it comes in on July '12 as per the package proposed in July '11. The changes and rangling and jockeying and backroom deals will be thick and heavy between now and when it comes in. Despite what Gillard bravely said yesterday, she has no authority whatsoever to introduce it and certainly no approval from the Australian people.


Then of course we just need to wait for the next Federal election to see if it stays in or gets turfed out....cos no Australian has had a say in any of this yet. Both major parties went to the last election promising not to introduce this toxic tax - for very good reason.


....I predict an absolute landslide victory for the Libs / Nats coalition and a thorough mandate to scrap the carbon Tax completely. Not change it, not modify it...scrap it completely. I also predict they will have no hesitation whatsoever in dissolving the Senate if the Greens get in their way.


This hung parliament has been disasterous for the nation. I'm thoroughly ashamed, and cannot wait to have my say on this Carbon Tax at the ballot box. Bring it on.

While no one on this board has changed their opinion, I think Australia has. And it's good to see this reflected in the ALP's primary votes of 27% and Coalition's of 49%.

And don't worry I'm sure the Greens won't ever get another lower house seat again, as I have no doubt the Coalition will preference the ALP in the Electorate of Melbourne next time. Bye bye Adam, you were a good one-trick pony while you were around.

I look forward to an era where I don't hear from the ALP anymore.

Let's see:

Federal - Coalition
NSW / VIC / WA - Coalition
QLD - looks like Newman is cruising home to victory
SA - Rann barely held on last time
TAS - Greens reneged the deal and backed ALP which had less votes than Liberals (I don't care about TAS anyway)
NT -Darwin, where?

Good to know my mayor in Melbourne is the former state Liberal leader too.
 
Can the govt show that the taxes on the 500 polluters will not push these companies offshore and damage the future prosperity of this country?

Yes. Go to http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/

Read it all. Every chapter...

If you want to challenge any of the assumptions behind the modelling, post them up and we can discuss the issue. Companies in the top 500 who both have high emissions intensity and are price takers in international markets are treated separately - usually through the issue of free permits for a significant (in some cases overwhelming) proportion of their emissions.

Note this is different to the treatment of coal power station owners, who have no trade exposure.

Are there really no other domestic solutions but to pay billion dollars to other countries and buy carbon credit offsets to make up for the expected under-achievement of carbon saving? What about options for govt to plant trees on crown lands, islands, desert? What number of trees do you need per capita and what policies do you need to achieve this?

There are alternatives but they are likely to be more expensive. Sourcing credits in the domestic market alone is the same as asking for a higher carbon price. If domestic credits are cheaper then we won't be buying any internationally.

As for planting trees in the desert, there is a reason trees don't grow in the desert... :rolleyes:

Planting trees on marginal farm land could be economic in an open carbon market however controls are necessary to prevent competition with food production.

A reason the govt thinks CT is necessary is because it wants to have global standing, 'to keep up with the Jones' globally. If so, why are imports and our foreign policies apparently spared from this CT exercise? Let's not be hypocrites and tax local polluters on the climate, but allow foreign polluters immunity, which defeats the purpose of the CT. I am aware of failed efforts in Kyoto. Surely there are other ways? For example, bilateral with Brazil and Canada, seeing we have economic similarities. Let's use our foreign aids to reflect the CT priorities, ie reduce over-logging, deforestation by fire, etc.

We do use foreign aid for that purpose but increasing our aid budget materially would require increasing taxes and we all know the difficulty of that!

As for a CT on imported goods, it's just not high enough to make the effort worthwhile for the vast majority of goods. For those where it is worthwhile it has been allowed for by the issue of free permits and targetted assistance. The admin costs of doing that across the board would swamp any benefit - the GST below $1k works in a similar way and the CT would have far less impact than that on the vast majority of manufactured. More like <1% than 10% as per the GST <$1k.

Seeing that under CT, Australia will yield little impact on the global climate change (ANU professor's assessment mentioned earlier in someone's posting), is there really no other strategies than a tax approach to the climate change issue? I am slow on this issue and do not know Coalition policies but want to approach the issue afresh. What are Australia's strengths and weaknesses? One of our main strength and wealth is our mineral sector. One of our weakness is our relative small population. It seems the CT is a weak strategic approach to the global climate change issue, if we attempt to use change in our small population to try to impact global pollution, while at the same time damaging our core interest. Wouldn't it be better for Australia to contribute to the global issue by massive investments in research and innovations in alternative energy sources? We already have some investments on alternative energy research pilots but we need to scale this up dramatically to take it as a global challenge for all energy aspects including car fuel and to address the environments of the large polluters overseas.

This package includes our first major fund for research and innovation in clean energy, that hasn't existed before. The money for such an endeavour has to come from somewhere and this package provides it. The alternative is just to tax people's income or profit more, rather than at least starting to tax environmental damage.

As for our global impact, it's a bit hard for Australia to go into international forums and argue for reductions in emissions, when we have the highest per capita emissions in the world ourselves and are doing next to nothing about it. If we start cleaning up our own mess, we can then suggest how others could do the same.

I am not pushing a Coaliton line as I have already admitted I am asking these questions with a genuine desire to engage the issues behind CT.

Me too... :)
 
As for a solar powered steel mill - solar powered electricity cannot produce the large volumes of massively high temperatures required in the process ... unlike burning quality coal.

Ok we're talking at cross purposes. Steel mills can get their electricity from renewable energy no problem but of course they can't use anything other than coking coal for the reduction of iron ore into steel.

But that latter point is irrelevant because carbon emissions from steel making are specifically compensated under this scheme and the steel makers have agreed they're happy with the package for their business.

Same as electric batteries would struggle to power a prime mover or combine harvester.

It's not a case of supplying more power/batteries. The solar/wind power just doesn't supply enough immediate power/heat for the process to occur.

Not true. Last year China installed 19GW of wind turbines, in one year. That's just below half of Australia's total installed power capacity. Solar energy can be stored thermally and wind can be married to fast acting (and low emitting) gas turbines to follow any load you wish to throw at it, at a fraction of current emissions.

The sole issue is price - going fully to a wind / gas hybrid power system would require a carbon price roughly twice as high as currently proposed. This package will get us only part way there but at least it's a start... and after the first years of a fixed price the path has been laid to get us all the way there. The alternative proposal on the table from the other side isn't even a start...
 
The sole issue is price - going fully to a wind / gas hybrid power system would require a carbon price roughly twice as high as currently proposed. This package will get us only part way there but at least it's a start... and after the first years of a fixed price the path has been laid to get us all the way there. The alternative proposal on the table from the other side isn't even a start...

I would have thought doubling the carbon tax to say $46.00 still would go nowhere near transitioning us to the power infrastructure future you are talking about.

CO2 costs at $23.00 per tonne is still not the largest cost to their businesses as I understand it, sure coal works best to cities at scale and some regions could move to gas turbines sooner but overall I would have thought we are talking a significantly higher tax to take coal power out of the picture in this country?
 
I would have thought doubling the carbon tax to say $46.00 still would go nowhere near transitioning us to the power infrastructure future you are talking about.

CO2 costs at $23.00 per tonne is still not the largest cost to their businesses as I understand it, sure coal works best to cities at scale and some regions could move to gas turbines sooner but overall I would have thought we are talking a significantly higher tax to take coal power out of the picture in this country?

In round figures, the price of Renewable Energy Certificates (RECS) required to get a wind farm banked today (eg the Macarthur, Waterloo, Collgar etc wind farm developments which have seen around 1000MW of wind farms constructed in the last couple of years, on top of a bit more than that previously) on top of the wholesale power price is generally accepted to be around $45-$50/MWh, which equates to approximately $45-$50/tonne CO2e at current emissions intensities.

There is a large pipeline of wind farm projects that would get over the line with such a RECS / Carbon price. The existing LRET legislation will provide around 8000MW of wind farms by 2020 in any case at around that figure so that is locked in.

The switch from coal to gas would take place at below that figure, depending on what happens to east coast gas prices with the Gladstone gas terminal developments, which will have the effect of exposing Australian gas prices up closer to international levels. The west coast gas market is already exposed there with the NW shelf and enjoys a much higher gas price as a result.

But certainly, if carbon pricing was at $45/tonne, I would be pretty surprised to see many coal power stations in operation in Australia (certainly no brown coal power stations). Combined cycle gas plants are far more efficient, flexible and very quick to deploy in their place. Note that we would still have a very healthy coal industry as the bulk of employment in coal mining is for the export market, which will remain largely unaffected by all this.

So the order of merit for carbon pricing (in increasing price) at the moment in the Australian power market is coal then gas then wind. With specific treatment of wind through the LRET, we would have a wind / gas power system at around $45-$50/MWh, give or take.

BTW, for anyone interested, I have built the costs for network augmentation and grid improvements into the above numbers to remove that factor.
 
Locko, I like you already as you do not prejudge me and read my thoughts! :D The statement on desert omitted references to exemplary Israeli initiatives, oasis, technology for arid living, etc.


Feel free to add those links then... :D
I'd be interested to have a look!
 
To give some context to all this, I should point out the following.

Average cost of power generation in Australia: circa $50-$60/MWh
Average residential power price for consumers: circa $200/MWh

The bulk of what people pay in their power bills is not for generating the electricity, it is for the poles, wires and cable in the transmission and distribution system, coupled with retail costs like meter reading and billing.

Australia's current emission intensity in the power sector is circa 1 tonne CO2e / MWh.
That means a $45/tonne carbon price would have the impact of raising generation costs from $50-$60/MWh to $95-$105/MWh and residential prices from $200/MWh to $245/MWh, albeit that emission intensity will reduce a bit as a result.

So you can see that a $45/tonne carbon price would make a big difference in the wholesale electricity market (all but knocking out coal), while only making a small % difference to electricity prices to consumers.

From what I have seen, this is where most of the debate gets confused...
 
Not true. Last year China installed 19GW of wind turbines, in one year. That's just below half of Australia's total installed power capacity. Solar energy can be stored thermally and wind can be married to fast acting (and low emitting) gas turbines to follow any load you wish to throw at it, at a fraction of current emissions.
...

you missed the point ... a Mack truck or combine harvester cannot physically "carry" enough battery power to make the machinery work.
 
sorry guys, but a carbon tax that paves the way for an international carbon price that allows the UN to tell us what we can and can't do - well, i can't support it.
 
you missed the point ... a Mack truck or combine harvester cannot physically "carry" enough battery power to make the machinery work.

have you seen the new gel-pack biomass batteries? they're only prototypes but they could power a fair bit for their size.
 
you missed the point ... a Mack truck or combine harvester cannot physically "carry" enough battery power to make the machinery work.

Hi Lizzie

Yes, in some sectors of the economy there are few realistic options to reduce emissions. But:
- Just because it looks difficult in some areas doesn't mean we shouldn't do it in others.
- Just because it looks difficult to reduce all our emissions, doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce some of them.
 
I don't disagree - but I feel that changed is being forced before we have the technology available to be able to actually undertake the change.

I also agree with the installation of more solar/wind generation ... but there has been terrible difficulty getting them approved past the enviromental greenies. Some rare little blue titmouse pigeon that nests 50km away might fly into a blade.

I also wonder what will happen to the compensated industries, that have no choice but to use coal (ie, steel mills) in 5 years time, when the compensation is removed.

I would like to see investment in the alternative power industry thru other means - like a designated increase company tax or mining tax instead of this complicated back and forthing of compensation monies with the balance going into general coffers (yes, I don't believe that all the remainder will go towards technology)

p.s. how much energy will it take to produce a gel pack battery?
 
This package includes our first major fund for research and innovation in clean energy, that hasn't existed before. The money for such an endeavour has to come from somewhere and this package provides it. The alternative is just to tax people's income or profit more, rather than at least starting to tax environmental damage.

On Lateline last night, re Clean Energy Finance Corporation

TONY WOOD: Yeah, almost all of them. And this is by the way not unique to Australia. This is around the world that these programs are not very good at picking winners, governments are not very good at picking winners.

And in many cases, the projects that have been selected don't even actually go ahead and the money doesn't even get spent. So, there's some problems with these.
 
On Lateline last night, re Clean Energy Finance Corporation

TONY WOOD: Yeah, almost all of them. And this is by the way not unique to Australia. This is around the world that these programs are not very good at picking winners, governments are not very good at picking winners.

And in many cases, the projects that have been selected don't even actually go ahead and the money doesn't even get spent. So, there's some problems with these.

Agreed - I would prefer that support to come in the form of a higher carbon price instead.

But if international governments didn't "waste" an awful lot of money on jet planes that didn't fly during WW2, we would all still be flying around in biplanes! It's very difficult to quantify the real benefits of R&D until decades later, if then. But it still needs to be done if we are to make any breakthroughs... the huge reductions in price we have seen wind and solar technologies make, to take two examples, in recent years are all the result of government support somewhere in the world, in some shape or form. Left just to the private sector nothing would have happened.

By the way, this is exactly the argument against the Libs policy. It is all and only about picking winners and doesn't create any market for new technologies and innovation to reduce carbon emissions.
 
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