Commercial props - our stories

regarding the content of this discussion I find it odd that nowhere that I can find does it mention the term "cap rate".

if you are considering commercial property do not assume that its just like resi only bigger.
 
Finance for Commercial Properties

Quick question regarding obtaining financing on commercial properties...

What sort of LVRs are available to private investors, and at what interest rates?

Is LMI available or is this concept/product exclusive to residential properties?

How is the GST registration handled?

Do you purchase commercial properties in your own name, or via a company? I would assume a company would be bad (as CGT discount would be lost) - so do you need to personally register for GST???
 
Hi Trogdor,

generally you'll get around a 70% lvr on commercial, and interest rates will be slightly higher than a resi loan, and of a lower term if you're borrowing directly against the commercial property in question. Of course, you can use your resi properties as security and possibly get resi rates and resi terms...

GST is just like any other purchase. You will recieve a tax invoice on settlement and you will lodge your BAS at the end of the month and get a refund (less any GST you've collected along the way).
 
Dazzling said:
Income

1. Nett rent of $ 120 K p.a. & GST (escalating $ 5 K p.a.)
2. Outgoings of $ 15 K p.a. (kindly paid by the tenants)
3. Gross effective rent of $ 135 K p.a.

Am I reading this correctly? After all expenses and tax you have $120,000 in the pocket each year?

So this is completely cash flow positive???

RJ
 
RJ, generally commercial is cash flow positive, and the tenants pay the outgoings...that's an up side, but there are downsides as well..
 
ramone_johnny said:
Am I reading this correctly? After all expenses and tax you have $120,000 in the pocket each year?

So this is completely cash flow positive???

RJ

RJ

Dazz mentions gross, out of that $120k there is still service costs to be met.

On my calculations at a 70% lend that is a cost of $70k pa. This does not take into account the other 30% of the investment cost which may also be borrowed through other means. If 100% financed then the interest cost are just over $100k. Either case still leaving a positive cash flow of at least $20k+.

Cheers
 
Thanks!!! Awesome guys... A few more questions...

I assume stamp duty is the same (on the non-GST value of the property?)

Land tax is also the same?

Would the tenant pay land tax as part of their outgoings or is this usually the responsibility of the owner?
 
ramone_johnny said:
Am I reading this correctly? After all expenses and tax you have $120,000 in the pocket each year?

So this is completely cash flow positive???

RJ

Hello all,

Sorry for the lack of response. Been wrapping things up overseas....had the leaving party and now firmly entrenched back here in the Land of Oz.

Don't want to drag up stuff from the past...re what my dummy spit was about. For those who remember, it was a mere tiff. Things seem to have calmed down. A nice Mod might even consider deleting it, and the subsequent post quoting it, to get the thread back on an even learning keel.

To answer your questions, all of our non-ressy stuff is +CF, no matter what your definition. Our definition is borrow 106% of the funds and the nett rent has to be more than all costs - all up, everything included.

As posted re: the first prop we bought, yes, it's +CF. Bought it for 1.35 and borrowed 1.43. We have never put an ounce of attention into this property, either time or cost wise.

Interest cost per annum is 104K p.a. As of three weeks ago, the nett rent after all property costs has escalated to 130K p.a., so it's putting 26K p.a. or $ 500 per week into our pocket.

It goes a small part of the way to paying for our woefully negative cashflow residential holdings.
 
In some states Land Tax is recoverable, in other states it is not.

If you are considering commercial proerty you cannot simply look at the passing yield and make a decision. You must look at a time frame of at least 5 years, I'd be looking at 10 years and do a cashflow analysis. I wouldn't worry too much about IRR calcs as they only mean something of you have a basis to compare to, but you must know what your cashflow will look like, when the leases expire and what sort of incentive is required to re-lease. Could you live with the building if you had to give away 6 months rent free for 50% of it ?

And as I stated before, know what the cap rates are. For instance, a commercial building in Sydney just sold at an initial yield of just above 5%, and a cap rate of 5.75%.
 
For arguments sake...

I have to say this is the best thread on here for a long time.. Mostly cause I am learning so much...

So, for the sake of example, say there is a commercial property for sale for $250,000, GST exclusive.

I have done a web search which says that some lenders will lend up to 75% for commercial property (by the way - is this right or wrong??)

So does this mean the upfront costs will be:

0.25 x 250,000 = $62,500
Stamp Duty = $10,660 (I assume this is the same as for a 250K residential property).
GST??? - Would one need to also pay 1/11 of the 250K upfront for GST?? I am not sure of how this works?? Does this mean extra $22,727???

Total = $95,887 ???

Is this correct? This seems very, very high capital outlay to acquire a 250K property...

Have I missed something, or are there any tips or tricks I am not aware of?

Thanks a million :) :) :)
 
saucy gibbon said:
I don't think gst applies because the building is a going concern.

I thought that it was only GST exempt if the purchaser of the building was also the purchaser of the business (which is a going concern) as well..

I could very well be completely wrong!!
 
It's only GST exempt if the tenant in the building is conducting a business that is staying. The "going concern" bit is the dirt and the box that the tenant is using at the time. No GST payable.

By buying the prop with a tenant in it, you are not buying the business of the tenant.

If you buy the place with the seller moving his business out, and giving you vacant possession, then GST is payable and claimable back later on.

Our strategy now involves buying dodgy buildings with dodgy tenants, no GST payable...kicking them out....this is not as easy as it sounds, tarting them up and installing doozy tenants.
 
I guess you are flicking them if their lease is up and they do not excercise an option, or are you flicking them through non payment of rent ?

At this stage of the market are you tarting up the building, getting a good couple of tenants and then flicking the building ?

Depending upon the area there's lots of money to be made. And as a great man once said (kinda) "when the tide goes out we will see who has been swimming without any pants".
 
Dazzling said:
It's only GST exempt if the tenant in the building is conducting a business that is staying. The "going concern" bit is the dirt and the box that the tenant is using at the time. No GST payable.

By buying the prop with a tenant in it, you are not buying the business of the tenant.

If you buy the place with the seller moving his business out, and giving you vacant possession, then GST is payable and claimable back later on.

Our strategy now involves buying dodgy buildings with dodgy tenants, no GST payable...kicking them out....this is not as easy as it sounds, tarting them up and installing doozy tenants.

So if you buy a building with a tenant who remains in place, does this mean that no GST is payable?
 
Saucy,

"Flicking" usually occurs when there is absolutely no paperwork in place at all. After sitting down and having a chat with them, usually they refuse to enter into a solid, written up Lease for any number of reasons, the most common one being they are illiterate and they cannot read what the agreement says.

Other reasons may be they have a residential mindset when it comes to renting, and do not wish to legally bound by all of the onerous conditions placed upon them by the Lease. Others take the view that a carton of beer slung here and there, and some fix up jobs for my vehicle etc substitute for rental payments.

I've had fibreglass guys promise to build me a boat instead of paying rent, marble cutters install a kitchen for free, furniture wholesalers try and build me a lounge and dining suite, all in the attempt of not signing a Lease and not paying rent and outgoings. All have failed and all have been kicked out.

In fact, of the 10 industrial tenants we have inherited, we've only kept 2....and they are an absolute joy. Look after the place as if it was their own, improve it at their will, pay for absolutely everything and have established businesses that are thriving and expect to be there for a very long time.

In terms of tarting up the places, that's costly and time consuming, just as renovating residential places is. We now try and leave all the reno's to the tenants - simply hand them the raw dump and let them at it. They pay for it all and tart it up just as they wish for their business purposes.....less whinging on their part that way.

Anyway, good luck anyone considering venturing into these waters. Come in, the water's fine !!!! :)
 
Ok, most of my comments relate to Office buildings, I haven't dealt with industrial for some time.

As for doing my own, it doesn't fit my investment profile at the moment. I just don't have the time to make it work. Perhaps in 10 yrs time when I eventually pull the pin then this can be my work.
 
IMHO The biggest factor you need to take into consideration with commercial properties is vacancy.

Ensure your reserves (cash or otherwise) can pay rent for a considerable period of vacancy.

Depending on the type of property, location, economic climate average vacancy rates of 10%+ are not unheard of.
 
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