I had a black dog is a great book about depression. Click on the books tab and then the title.
http://matthewjohnstone.com.au/courses/i-had-a-black-dog/
http://matthewjohnstone.com.au/courses/i-had-a-black-dog/
Depression
- Thread starter BayView
- Start date
I have had experience with a person very close to me suffering from depression. As a result, I ended up learning a lot about the illness.
I have glanced over all the responses so far and in my view there is one major thing that has not been mentioned yet.
It is NORMAL and appropriate to be sad in our lives from time to time. Loss of a loved one, job loss, feeling like your life is going nowhere or is boring, whatever. Life is full of ups and downs. Many people have listed many symptoms here, feeling down, crying for 'no reason', etc. Very normal, everyone feels this sometimes.
It is NOT NORMAL however, if you have these symptoms or feelings of sadness for a period of two weeks straight or more. I believe this is the medical definition of depression (do double check yourself though!).
Medications can help, however there are many non-drug solutions that are very effective and easy to try today. First of all, the Black Dog books by Bev Aisbett are very good and easy to read picture story style (as are the ones on Anxiety) to get a base understanding of the issue.
The premise of these books is that you can't always control your thoughts, but you can control your actions. So rather than sitting around trying to 'think' yourself positive do a positive action (visiting friends, going for a walk, seeing a movie, etc) and from this physical action positive thoughts (and brain chemicals) will be created.
Sitting around doing nothing and staying 'in your head' with your own thoughts is your own worst enemy here. Eckhart Tolle talks about this in his 'Power of Now' books, being present and not creating negative projections of the future or replaying ones of the past over and over again in our brains.
Regular exercise (i.e. 3x 30min sessions a week minimum, personally I do 3-4x hour long PT sessions per week) has shown dramatic improvements in peoples mental and physical health. I'm talking more than ANY drug could do. If a drug came out and it could do what exercise can it would be considered the BIGGEST medical breakthrough of our time. Other things like keeping a gratitude journal for a month can also be very beneficial. Add to that some healthy eating and you may find you're better than you've ever been.
Symptoms like this are warning signs that there is an imbalance in your life somewhere (working too much, not enough community connection, health, lack of quality relationships, meaning in your work, etc). In some cases meds are very helpful, however (for most people) I would only view them as a temporary 'prop up' or crutch while you work on correcting the underlying imbalance. I see many people go on them and just stay on them forever without doing any work on the root issue(s).
I have glanced over all the responses so far and in my view there is one major thing that has not been mentioned yet.
It is NORMAL and appropriate to be sad in our lives from time to time. Loss of a loved one, job loss, feeling like your life is going nowhere or is boring, whatever. Life is full of ups and downs. Many people have listed many symptoms here, feeling down, crying for 'no reason', etc. Very normal, everyone feels this sometimes.
It is NOT NORMAL however, if you have these symptoms or feelings of sadness for a period of two weeks straight or more. I believe this is the medical definition of depression (do double check yourself though!).
Medications can help, however there are many non-drug solutions that are very effective and easy to try today. First of all, the Black Dog books by Bev Aisbett are very good and easy to read picture story style (as are the ones on Anxiety) to get a base understanding of the issue.
The premise of these books is that you can't always control your thoughts, but you can control your actions. So rather than sitting around trying to 'think' yourself positive do a positive action (visiting friends, going for a walk, seeing a movie, etc) and from this physical action positive thoughts (and brain chemicals) will be created.
Sitting around doing nothing and staying 'in your head' with your own thoughts is your own worst enemy here. Eckhart Tolle talks about this in his 'Power of Now' books, being present and not creating negative projections of the future or replaying ones of the past over and over again in our brains.
Regular exercise (i.e. 3x 30min sessions a week minimum, personally I do 3-4x hour long PT sessions per week) has shown dramatic improvements in peoples mental and physical health. I'm talking more than ANY drug could do. If a drug came out and it could do what exercise can it would be considered the BIGGEST medical breakthrough of our time. Other things like keeping a gratitude journal for a month can also be very beneficial. Add to that some healthy eating and you may find you're better than you've ever been.
Symptoms like this are warning signs that there is an imbalance in your life somewhere (working too much, not enough community connection, health, lack of quality relationships, meaning in your work, etc). In some cases meds are very helpful, however (for most people) I would only view them as a temporary 'prop up' or crutch while you work on correcting the underlying imbalance. I see many people go on them and just stay on them forever without doing any work on the root issue(s).
So, 12 months or more would be...bad, I take it?
I agree with you about feeling depressed being normal feelings that's why I wrote this earlier in the thread.
http://somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1062995&postcount=23
As a kid I was raised by a mother who had the occasional bouts of depression in response to some of life's hurdles. She eventually killed her self later on in life. She went to the doctor who prescribed diazepam. Didn't help though as she was determined to end it all. She had regrets that she couldn't let go of
This is a question for a doctor Bayview.
We just discovered this week that a friend's best friend had suicided aged 44. Left behind a horribly grieving wife and shattered 12yo twin daughters. Meticulously planned, all the arrangements in place so the police would find him etc etc.
His best friend didn't have a clue there was anything wrong at all. So many questions from so many people that will now never get answered. What could I have done? Why couldn't I see it? What sort of friend / wife / daughter am I for this to be able to happen? The trail of destruction left behind is absolutely heart breaking for all concerned.
I can only implore people to take this stuff seriously. Get help and ask questions of the real professionals in a clinical environment. If trying to manage it with lifestyle / exercise or a course of treatment isn't working then try another. By all means talk about it here or elsewhere (let us all know how it goes for the person concerned) but don't let that be a substitute for seeking proper help. There is too much at stake and these things are much easier to turn around earlier than later.
Yes. And unless you (or whoever this is) is Superman, external help is required. This can be a friend but most likely a professional is more suitable.
I would recommend the holistic approach: exercise, diet, gratitude journal... doctors can be a little too quick to prescribe meds as a bandaid IMO (although don't let me put you off seeing one, I believe you should. Only they can diagnose if meds will be of assistance, however, it could be you just need a break from the tyre shop?).
Dr Craig Hassed is probably one of my favourite authors on the topic (I have a bookshelf full of this stuff). He's Melbourne based, and one of his books called the Essence of Health is pretty damn good. I've heard him speak a few times, here is a few links to give a taste
Podcast - http://www.livingiseasy.com.au/podcasts/craig-hassed/
Youtube lecture - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEbmiRxwdaU (there are several parts to this, search for 'may 2011 wellbeing series'
If finances allow perhaps even sign up for 10 PT sessions to get things kick started? Even committing to a brisk daily walk is a great start. This might give you the feel good chemicals required to tackle the rest of the issue.
Congratulate yourself for taking the first and most important step - reaching out. You're a smart guy and our minds can be our worst enemy sometimes, time to put it into action and for your advantage on solving this problem.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Diazapam is not an antidepressant - it won't do anything for depression.
I can't comment specifically on your mother but unfortunately this highly addictive drug that should only be used very short term was often prescribed in situations where is shouldn't have or was prescribed for longer than it should have.
Antidepressants, a different drug group altogether are generally highly effective unless the depression is of a psychotic type and then other treatments and drugs are usually considered.
This is something I was reading about the other day - which helped me let go of some baggage ... and boy ... do I feel better!
Draw a line in the sand, in your life, and say "this is the start". There is nothing you can do about what has happened in the past but you can change the future.
Great advice for the person not clinically depressed but probably not for the person that is.
Based on conversations I've had with people who have survived suicide the regrets are usually related to an overwhelming and unrealistic blame of oneself, ie. my parents were miserable because they stayed together because of me, parents marriage broke up because of me, girlfriend left me because I'm a loser, my children hate me because I was a bad parent, everything I do i stuff up and the people around me suffer because of it, etc.
Multiple 'blames' is one symptom of depression and usually can't easily be shaken off without treatment.
Marc, if it is you we are discussing then you can rest assured we all know you are a winner and you are going thru a very very common thing right now.
Heck... I even reckon Ive had the black dog for 10 or so years on and off. Either that or Im just silly...? It's bloody hard handling huge amounts of debt and the humiliation of some not so good investments. Ive got runs on the board there too mate, you are not alone. But still surviving right?
Anyway, when you went away to Kalgoorlie and did your work there and came back to report, I felt alot better as i was personally worried about your absence on here. That work you did to the IP was just the ticket and you applied yourself to the full extent and achieved as much as you could in the circumstances and time alotted. Success!
So, Id be taking Daves advice and take a few more long walks early mornings before work, breathe that fresh air in from the bass straight and remind yourself that you are gonna be alright because you are intelligent, can do stuff, and have a loving family beside you who Im sure care very much about you.
First step done so far as DaveMc says.
Now you'r moving in the right direction.
Soon enough you will be able to put this tyre business into perspective and make a decision as to how much longer you want to stay with it.
Meantime if you are surviving ok, and while int rates are lowering, you have room to think it all thru and come out the other side having conquered depression and any predicament you may have ATM.
Think about yourself and family first though, because without you the business and the mechanics jobs wont survive either so stop worrying about them and focus on whats right for YOU first !
Once you do that and get back on track, we all know here that there will be no stopping you!
Take care Mate
PS: Of course if it's not you with Depression then send the above to your friend. It's actually helped me writing this down now.
Heck... I even reckon Ive had the black dog for 10 or so years on and off. Either that or Im just silly...? It's bloody hard handling huge amounts of debt and the humiliation of some not so good investments. Ive got runs on the board there too mate, you are not alone. But still surviving right?
Anyway, when you went away to Kalgoorlie and did your work there and came back to report, I felt alot better as i was personally worried about your absence on here. That work you did to the IP was just the ticket and you applied yourself to the full extent and achieved as much as you could in the circumstances and time alotted. Success!
So, Id be taking Daves advice and take a few more long walks early mornings before work, breathe that fresh air in from the bass straight and remind yourself that you are gonna be alright because you are intelligent, can do stuff, and have a loving family beside you who Im sure care very much about you.
First step done so far as DaveMc says.
Now you'r moving in the right direction.
Soon enough you will be able to put this tyre business into perspective and make a decision as to how much longer you want to stay with it.
Meantime if you are surviving ok, and while int rates are lowering, you have room to think it all thru and come out the other side having conquered depression and any predicament you may have ATM.
Think about yourself and family first though, because without you the business and the mechanics jobs wont survive either so stop worrying about them and focus on whats right for YOU first !
Once you do that and get back on track, we all know here that there will be no stopping you!
Take care Mate
PS: Of course if it's not you with Depression then send the above to your friend. It's actually helped me writing this down now.
Some of the participants on this forum have showed a great deal of courage by baring their souls.
Property investing has its ups and downs. The stress and anxiety of the downs can be very depressing and extremely hard to deal with.
This has been a very informative and useful thread.
Thanks to everyone for sharing and for being honest and open about your personal circumstances.
Property investing has its ups and downs. The stress and anxiety of the downs can be very depressing and extremely hard to deal with.
This has been a very informative and useful thread.
Thanks to everyone for sharing and for being honest and open about your personal circumstances.
Also remember that a GP can write you up for a Mental Health Care plan which allows you between 5 and 10 sessions per year with a psych which is at medicare rates. This is a great service for people who don't have private health insurance or who need to stretch out their entitlements and use the private and public to get through an issue.
There are also group sessions run by local health organisations.
There are also group sessions run by local health organisations.
12 months of what? what is considered "bad"?
See my previous post where I listed the diagnostic criteria used by doctors/allied health to diagnose depression. If you satisfy the criteria listed for more than 2 weeks at a time you would qualify for a diagnosis of depression in most cases.
If it's over 2 years, then you might be looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia
Bayview, there is something else worth considering. That is, that there are some things you can change, and others you can't.
Firstly, for the record, I used both CBT and drugs in managing my depression. After a handful of sessions, my therapist said that I needed to get my meds looked at, as we weren't progressing. She said that until my brain chemistry was functional, therapy wasn't going to do anything. So back to the quack I went...
Anyhow, the drugs can help you to function sufficiently so you can make necessary changes, and also cope with situations that are difficult or impossible to change. For example, when I was badly depressed I was also unlucky enough to have my direct boss bully me quite badly. As you can imagine, this fed into the depression and the whole situation was pretty ugly. The unfortunate thing was that I needed the job, and was finding it difficult to find another one, due to not being able to use my boss as a (positive) referee. This is an example of a situation that is difficult to change. The ADs helped me to function better and cope better with this.
I also found that everyday life was more bearable. I could do things like meet friends for lunch, look after myself (eg showering regularly etc, which when I was very bad I found difficult), and do things like exercise. These are things that you can choose to do; but if you're not functioning, then they almost become impossible.
The short version is this: if you find drugs that work for you, you can make positive changes, and it also helps you to cope with those things you can't change. I had to really persevere to find the antidepressants that worked for me, but I'm glad I did, because otherwise I wouldn't be here now.
Firstly, for the record, I used both CBT and drugs in managing my depression. After a handful of sessions, my therapist said that I needed to get my meds looked at, as we weren't progressing. She said that until my brain chemistry was functional, therapy wasn't going to do anything. So back to the quack I went...
Anyhow, the drugs can help you to function sufficiently so you can make necessary changes, and also cope with situations that are difficult or impossible to change. For example, when I was badly depressed I was also unlucky enough to have my direct boss bully me quite badly. As you can imagine, this fed into the depression and the whole situation was pretty ugly. The unfortunate thing was that I needed the job, and was finding it difficult to find another one, due to not being able to use my boss as a (positive) referee. This is an example of a situation that is difficult to change. The ADs helped me to function better and cope better with this.
I also found that everyday life was more bearable. I could do things like meet friends for lunch, look after myself (eg showering regularly etc, which when I was very bad I found difficult), and do things like exercise. These are things that you can choose to do; but if you're not functioning, then they almost become impossible.
The short version is this: if you find drugs that work for you, you can make positive changes, and it also helps you to cope with those things you can't change. I had to really persevere to find the antidepressants that worked for me, but I'm glad I did, because otherwise I wouldn't be here now.
It's not a question of wanting to stay with it. I have to. Trapped in a long hours job for less than average wage and struggling just to pay all the bills. Who wants that?
Can't sell it (operating at losses) for anywhere remotely close to what we still owe on loan for it, and we can't close the doors as I would have no job and would default on the loans and lose house as well.
And, to top it all off; the friggin' unit in Kal is still vacant - nearly 2 months since reno - and that cost is on the CC. Have dropped the rent from $350p/w to $300 now. Talk about copping it up the @rze.
I could sell our PPoR and clear out all loans, have no debt on anything and still own the business and an IP. The business would then become profitable without the interest each week, and we'd have rent from an IP we own outright, so it's another option.
Just a failure option in my mind. I know you'll disagree. But, still may have to do it and become a renter.
Anyway, don't want to go over old ground again with those two issues - it was flogged to death in another thread, and I've started a few of the ideas suggested to hopefully start a recovery down at the workshop.
Thanks for all the support, though.
That's interesting - I find this is exactly the case.
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Well, I dare say this is the root of your depression, or at least a huge agravator and therefore needs to be addressed or it will simply compound you further. (Captain Obvious sorry)
There must be a way to turn your financial situation around, I know there will be, but we havent found it yet. Im thinking hard for, and like you, dont want to sell the PPOR. There just has to be a way out of this.
Hang in there bud and try not to blame yourself as you wouldnt have done anything bad on purpose hey.
Bayview,
Sell your business, get whatever you can for it. Get a better paying J.O.B than you have now. Pay back the loan slowly.
Downsize your house. Be happy with what you and your family have and enjoy each other. If you completely change your situation you will feel much better.
Realistically people will probably say "oh, did you hear what happened to Bayview and Co" for a about 5 minutes and then no one will give a $hit but your life will be much better.
Nothing the world has to offer is worth the price of depression.
I had to restructure my life 4 years ago with a business going bad, took the tough medicine and im much better for it now.
Sell your business, get whatever you can for it. Get a better paying J.O.B than you have now. Pay back the loan slowly.
Downsize your house. Be happy with what you and your family have and enjoy each other. If you completely change your situation you will feel much better.
Realistically people will probably say "oh, did you hear what happened to Bayview and Co" for a about 5 minutes and then no one will give a $hit but your life will be much better.
Nothing the world has to offer is worth the price of depression.
I had to restructure my life 4 years ago with a business going bad, took the tough medicine and im much better for it now.
Watch this a few times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNvYuSOshe0
Marc... is it time to sell this IP? (seeing as you can't sell the business)
Want to put up a link to it, someone else who knows the area may give you some pointers on this?
Even if you clear 50-100k after CGT (which you won't have to pay till later next year anyway) it will give you some breathing space and lower the price you may have to eventually sell the business for.
Hang on to the PPOR for as long as you can, eventually someone will pay $2M+ for it, and you can move to a cheaper place on the Peninsula without the "BayView" and invest the rest in dividend paying shares, kick back and be another success story.
And I think you may need to accept that buying any more IPs isn't going to get you where you want anymore, and holding onto this one isn't either.
