First time at the tribunal

[crest133]

I've had more problems with bad PMs than I have with bad tenants. And in my 27 years of property investing have had both good and bad (errr....rather "tenants from hell") in both blue-chip and in less desirable areas (locally and interstate). It would be so easy to say, it's all about proper screening of "potential" tenants but that assumpton is far from accurate, as research has shown that at times even the most diligent of checking and double checking, will not reveal the tenant from hell lurking within the dream applicant!!!

Wealth creation (life?) isn't easy. It's the challenges along the way that you will remember most and that will help you to appreciate the successes; not the ease with which they were attained!!!

Anyway, wishing you all the best.

Jo

Spot on Monopoly, as always.
cheers
crest133

 

[jingo]

Thanks for the response Jo. Its good to hear from someone who has been investing in the area for a long period of time, and who has confidence that there will be some good capital growth in the area.

I will hold onto the property. I will be interested to see what influence the completion of East Link will have on the area. Thats the main reason I bought into the area in the first place, together with the proximity to the bay and the fact that Frankston seems undervalued in relation to the surrounding areas. Patience is obviously required!!!

Anway, the experience has taught me many things. Perhaps things had been sailing along too smoothly!! In the whole scheme of things, this is a small hippcup along the way. You are correct in saying that "It's the challenges along the way that you will remember most and that will help you to appreciate the successes; not the ease with which they were attained!!! "


Thanks for your insight.

Regards Jason.

 

[gerd.]

Hi jingo

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/

This is a must read for all Victorian landlords.
Have a look on page 246

gerd

 

[jingo]

Hi jingo

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rta1997207/

This is a must read for all Victorian landlords.
Have a look on page 246

gerd

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for this,

I have saved a copy into my propertyresources file. Noted pg 246. Useful information, and this is the notice my pm has now served to the tenant.

Will keep you updated.

Regards Jason.

 

[jingo]

Heard from my pm today regarding this tenant who is not paying rent. Well, it seems the notice to evict and tribunal hearing date has spurred the tenant into some action. She has paid some money, but still owes some. Apparetly she has to have an abortion and so she is short of cash. (Can't see how its my problem or my pm's problem, but there you go! I was half inclined to suggest that she keep the baby so that she could get a baby bonus and pay up her rent. Could fix the problem in the short term!!!!!).

My pm will take her to the tribunal on the scheduled date for being late with her payments. My pm is itching to take her, and is in for a full on confrontation!!!!!!

I told you I wouldn't like to be facing my pm on a matter like this!!! lol!!


I shall keep you updated as the situation unfolds!!!!

 

[Missvee]

thank you all for your input. Jingo's story is a mirror image of mine. After 18 months of hassle free tenants i now face the opposite - new tenants that moved in Australia Day (January), paid one month and that was it.

IP is in VIC, i'm in Sydney. My new Pm's doing the job and all fired up.

Just thought of letting you know too i even asked my psychic friend about my 'wonderful tenant.' Didnt give her any details whatsover (name, # of kids etc) but she was was spot on . Said she there are no intentions of fraud - my tenants are just going through 'hell' as well - divorce. (dont know how to interpret this - will i ever get my rental payments at all).

maybe i should employ my psychic friend to screen tenants for me in the future.

I have LL insurance but currently paying mortgage through my depleting buffer. Should i make a claim or continue using my buffer and hope my tenants make payment plans?

 

[jingo]

thank you all for your input. Jingo's story is a mirror image of mine. After 18 months of hassle free tenants i now face the opposite - new tenants that moved in Australia Day (January), paid one month and that was it.

IP is in VIC, i'm in Sydney. My new Pm's doing the job and all fired up.

Just thought of letting you know too i even asked my psychic friend about my 'wonderful tenant.' Didnt give her any details whatsover (name, # of kids etc) but she was was spot on . Said she there are no intentions of fraud - my tenants are just going through 'hell' as well - divorce. (dont know how to interpret this - will i ever get my rental payments at all).

maybe i should employ my psychic friend to screen tenants for me in the future.

All the best,

Regards Jason.
I have LL insurance but currently paying mortgage through my depleting buffer. Should i make a claim or continue using my buffer and hope my tenants make payment plans?

Hi Missvee,

I understand what you are going through!! It can be very frustrating and stressful.

Has your pm issued a notice to vacate, and scheduled a hearing at the tribunal? This has shaken my tenant into some action. I need to check with the pm as to exactly how much she has paid, but when I spoke with her on Tuesday she said she had paid "a significant amount of money", but still owed around $400. My pm is still taking the tenant to the tribunal for the outstanding money. (Although in our situation we prefered the tenant not to make future payments as we just want to move her on and start afresh with new tenants).

I don't think you can hope your tenant will make payments if they haven't been given any reason to. (ie issued with a notice to vacate from your pm and a tribunal hearing).

If you are really running out of cash to support your mortage, it may be worthwhile making a claim. However I would check with your insurer before hand as to whether you can then make another claim on the same matter, or whether you will receive more money from the insurer if you wait until the matter is settled (ie tribunal hearing and outcome) and the total sum of outstanding rent has been determined. You will need to determine the excess on your cover as well.

I would be interested in meeting with your psychic friend to screen my future tenants as well! Perhap she can advertise her services on this forum for all of us to use!!! Can she cast a spell on both our current non paying tenants!!!

 

[crest133]

Suggestion
Divorce may mean separation and one original signatory to the lease may now be living elsewhere. As both parties are liable jointly and severally for their obligations under the lease, you are entitled to ask the lessees to confirm the appropriate address for the serving of legal papers upon them.
This can get some action. The PM should be right on their case with termination notices and follow up Tribunal hearings to ensure you are the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Ask the PM to remind the tenants that both parties are jointly & severally liable for the rent until such time as both parties (lessor & lessees) accept a change of lessee or a Tribunal so orders. If the PM isn't tough, the tenants' other dramas will seem bigger and more important. It's not the time to be soft, kind and understanding because they get paid last if at all.
good luck
cheers
crest133

 

[Missvee]

thanks again guys.

Jingo, yes our PM has issued notice to vacate mid april - still no reaction no phone calls from tenant and soooo impossible to get hold of. Application to the Tribunal for hearing date has also been made. So, i may just have to wait until notice expires on 2nd May and proceed with Order for Possession, carry out the warrant with the assistance of Police.

You mentioned about casting a spell? yes, that crossed my mind too.

 

[jingo]

thanks again guys.

Jingo, yes our PM has issued notice to vacate mid april - still no reaction no phone calls from tenant and soooo impossible to get hold of. Application to the Tribunal for hearing date has also been made. So, i may just have to wait until notice expires on 2nd May and proceed with Order for Possession, carry out the warrant with the assistance of Police.

You mentioned about casting a spell? yes, that crossed my mind too.

Your tenant is very illusive. I guess this is more evidence in your favour when your situation goes to the Tribunal and you will hopefully be successful in obtaining the order for possession.

Let us know how it all turns out.

All the best.

Regards Jason.

 

[GreenGoblin]

Hi Jingo

So sorry to hear about all the hassles you're having Really interested to hear about MPRE's slip-up - I rang them to get an idea of expected rental on a property we've got an offer on in Frankston South (our first IP) and they were very helpful. I was planning on using them to screen and place a tenant for us - good job I read your post! Would really appreciate it if you could pass on the details of your PM - sounds like you're much happier with her.

All the best with your tenant, and please let us know the outcome.

Cheers,
The Green Goblin

 

[jingo]

Hi Jingo

So sorry to hear about all the hassles you're having Really interested to hear about MPRE's slip-up - I rang them to get an idea of expected rental on a property we've got an offer on in Frankston South (our first IP) and they were very helpful. I was planning on using them to screen and place a tenant for us - good job I read your post! Would really appreciate it if you could pass on the details of your PM - sounds like you're much happier with her.

All the best with your tenant, and please let us know the outcome.

Cheers,
The Green Goblin

Hi Green Goblin,

I've sent you a private message with further details.

All the best,

Regards Jason.

 

[jingo]

Update on my PM

Hi all,

Just thought I'd keep you updated on the wonderful work my PM is doing with my beligerant tenants in both of my IP's in Frankston.

The first is off to the tribunal on Friday. Yes its a big day. My tenant claims she's suffering from the effects of an abortion (Yeah right), and various other personal issues. (It's called I can't afford to pay the rent and I have a headache! A bit like a student who is feeling sick because they haven't handed their homework in! Don't I hear that everyday!!!!! - Yes, I'm a teacher!)

My PM is champing at the bit waiting to take her to the tribunal. I can tell you now, I wouldn't like to be my tenant facing my PM. My PM will be like a pitbull waiting to tear her apart! We'll see what happens!

My PM did an inspection of the second IP a couple of weeks ago. (Myself in tow). The IP had been renovated when I bought it and was in beautiful conditions pre tenants! Well, the tenants had scuffed the walls, put drawing pins in the loungeroom to hold up newspaper clippings and pictures! Amongst other small knocks and things.

I had a phone call from my wonderful PM yesterday to say that she had done a follow up inspection. Well, somehow (powerful negotiation skills) she had managed to get the tenants to putty the holes made by the drawing pins, and paint the house!!! Also tidy the garden. Now might be a good time to order a valuation!!!

Not to mention that they are now paying on time!!!

I take my hat off to my wonderful PM. I'm reluctant to recommend her to anyone else anymore so that she can continue spending her time on my IP's and not yours!!!!!- I have received countless private messages asking for her number. (Only joking, only too happy to recommend her if you so desire!).

Shall let you know how the hearing turns out!! Will my tenant be granted a reprive and be allowed to pay by installments? (Oh no!!). Or will she be out on the streets, looking for another unsuspecting landlord to sponge off for a year or so. (Hope so - happy to supply you with her name, and that of her partner if you are interested - via private message only! I highly recommend you give her a big miss if she puts an application in on your IP!).

Perhaps we should set up our own data base on somersoft here of dodgy tenants. Is that possible??

 

[bernly]

Hi all,

Perhaps we should set up our own data base on somersoft here of dodgy tenants. Is that possible??

As well as a data base of dodgy REA's and PM's.

Cheers

 

[jingo]

As well as a data base of dodgy REA's and PM's.

Cheers

Now, there's a great idea!!!

 

[jingo]

Tribunal Hearing Adjourned - What happens now??

Heard back from my pm today. My tenant is playing games and has managed to have the tribunal hearing adjourned to a later date due to an official notice from the hospital saying she is in poor health due to a recent termination. (Abortion).

My pm is furious, but says that she just needs to wait for another tribunal date to be set.

Has anyone been through this experience. Sounds like my tenant is digging her heals in, and is going to be very difficult to evict. What do you think?

 

[crest133]

Exactly how many days in arrears is the tenant ?
How long ago did she make the appointment for surgery ?
Was the surgery optional ?

Can the tenant also contact and later limp down to the Dept of Housing and have a meeting with them to get some rent for you to keep " emergency housing " roof over her head instead of just contacting those Depts which will help her evade paying rent ?

Ring the Dept of Housing yourself and see what assistance is available for you because you are doing their job for them by now providing emergency housing for someone who will very soon be on the streets and become a problem for DOH directly.

If her surgery was optional, then she should have made arrangements to pay the rent while she was making arrangements for the surgery. She needs to show proof to the Tribunal that there were no other options and she made all possible attempts to address the rent issue before making appointm,ents for surgery.

If at the end of the day, she cannot pay rent and cannot prove the delays were unavoidable, then your PM should be able to ask for minimum notice period termination and possession.

Let the various Govt Depts and other organisations do the social work and charity work and leave you to build your income and property portfolio.

cheers
crest133

 

[jingo]

Thanks crest133,

I am not sure of all of the details you mention above. I shall check them out. I agree with you though, her personal life is none of my business, and therefore not my responsibility.

I am too busy building our portfolio as you mention and our rental income stream to bother worrying about her well being.

The way I see it, everyone has choices. She has made her's, and I've made mine.

I know who will worse for wear at the end of the day, and it won't be me!!!

 

[Dazz]

her personal life is none of my business, and therefore not my responsibility.

I am too busy building our portfolio as you mention and our rental income stream to bother worrying about her well being.

That may be so in theory, but as you are finding out jingo, as we also had to painfully find out, in practice you are.....for the sake of keeping your investment growth and income on track....being forced to wade through her private life and get involved with every irrelevant painful step of the way.

All very well to say it's none of your business, but by the very fact of you investing in your house / unit / townhouse, you have hitched your rickety wealth wagon to her lifestyle.....and all of the ups and down that come with that. You can't sit atop your rickety wagon and ignore the mule pulling your wagon. She is your business partner in all of this, the one providing that vital cashflow that keeps you moving. If your mule has got 4 broken legs and refuses to budge, it's not good business (IMHO) to simply keep sitting up on that wagon and ignore the mule.

It sounds as if you are trying to unhitch as quickly as possible and hook up with another mule. Why not leave the mules alone, and hitch up to a racehorse. Better still, stop buying wagons that naturally attract mules, trade up to a carbon fibre racing sled, jump on and hitch up to a rocket....if ya get my drift.



Even though you are too busy to worry about her well being, it appears by the lack of decisions or delays by the tribunal decisions......they indeed care very much about her well being - enough to ignore all of your business objectives and postpone until her wellbeing improves. In the meantime, your furious pitbull PM and cashflow concerns can all go and whistle Dixie. No joy there as yet. BTW, is this pitbull the same one who selected her as the best tenant to go into your property in the first place ??


Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side with this all the way, but I know exactly what is the top priority in all of this shambles through the eyes of the residential tribunal members......and it surely ain't your property business objectives. Never is. Landlord's always seem to have this false expectation going into these matters that their cashflow and asset is somehow the highest priority. It is in their eyes of course, but the decision makers seem to be looking through a different set of eyes.

How many of these events can you sustain ??

Good luck in your endeavours jingo.

 

[crest133]

That's the kind of Tibunal hearing I love attending.

At the hearing, the PM has the option of asking the tenant any number of very illuminating questions, and all the doozies should be included in the pre-Tribunal letters to the tenant, especially the ones where the PM advises the tenant to bring proof of answers with them because these are the questions that are going to be asked and the answers and any lack of proof may affect the decision relating to termination and possession.

I just don't see bad tenants as a business partner,(who'd want a business partner like that anyway). If they default then they are defaulters, and they're signatories to a financial legally binding deal and I expect them to keep the deal or give up the property.

The Tribunal members are paid and required by law to uphold the Residential Tenancies Act, which tells them how to behave, and that's exactly what I ask them to do, and quote the relevant section to them. That's really all they're paid to do. Try asking them to do something against the Act, and you'll get a stern lecture from them about how they're only allowed to enforce the Act etc etc. OK we don't win them all but preparation to remove all the rugs from under the defaulters prior to a Tribunal is half the battle won and the rest is polite demand and presentation on the day.



Lotsa luck.
cheers
crest133