House Prices doubling every 7 to 10 years

Prove it wrong

The cphg crowd and doomers in general are happy enough to compare average Australian wages with Sydney and or Australian capital city house prices, why is that different to Japan average wages and Tokyo prices?

Dave

I don't recall making any such comparisons, but let's set that aside.

The notion that median prices for tokyo apts are 2 million dollars is so absurd as to not require any proof. Walk up to any person from tokyo and make that assertion. Watch them laugh at you. There's your proof. However, since I am a helluva nice guy, here's a link:

http://used.realestate.yahoo.co.jp/...earch=1&sap=1&ln=2172&from=0&to=0&year=0&lo=6

Once you learn how to read japanese you will see that i am right.

As far as my other points - if you don't want to believe me that's fine. I don't really care either way. a modicum of research on your part would confirm my statements, but if you can't be bothered to do the research I don't see why I should--I already know that I'm right.
 
Sources aside, wouldn't it be better comparing Japanese earnings with Japanese dwelling/house prices? Not Japanese earnings with Tokyo house prices.

Arent average wage earners allowed to live in the cities in Japan?


Even if we look at the little 50m2 and under range in Tokyo they are still at around 15 times average wage years

http://www.realestate-tokyo.com/sale/search/Details.aspx

How does that compare to Australian capitals?

I think I could get 50m2 in Brisbane or Sydney CBD for a lot less than that

Posted by Urchin

As far as my other points - if you don't want to believe me that's fine. I don't really care either way. a modicum of research on your part would confirm my statements, but if you can't be bothered to do the research I don't see why I should--I already know that I'm right.

Yeah right, provide one dodgy yahoo link that no one can read and that proves you are right, what a load of BS.
At least I have provided a Tokyo REA link in ENGLISH for all to see.

Would you like me to provide some more?
Its not hard to find some if you do some research:rolleyes:


Dave
 
Arent average wage earners allowed to live in the cities in Japan?


Even if we look at the little 50m2 and under range in Tokyo they are still at around 15 times average wage years

http://www.realestate-tokyo.com/sale/search/Details.aspx

How does that compare to Australian capitals?

I think I could get 50m2 in Brisbane or Sydney CBD for a lot less than that



Yeah right, provide one dodgy yahoo link that no one can read and that proves you are right, what a load of BS.
At least I have provided a Tokyo REA link in ENGLISH for all to see.

Would you like me to provide some more?
Its not hard to find some if you do some research:rolleyes:


Dave


So Yahoo is a dodgy website? some little fly by night organization? unlike that wonderfully credible page listed above? or your link, which doesn't even seem to be working?

If you want to read it in English and can't be fussed learning Japanese just use yahoo translate.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translat...&to=0&year=0&lo=6&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

I have no intention of getting involved in a flame war. I lived in Japan from 2000-2007, i have spent a total of 9 years in Japan, my field of study is modern Japan, I go back on a regular basis, I have a large number of friends and family in Japan (many of whom live in Tokyo). If you want to look at the world with blinders on and ignore everything that doesn't match your preconceptions, that's your business. It's not my business to make you wake up to reality. If you want to go on pretending that comparisons between a 50m2 apt in brisbane and a 50m2 apt. in tokyo is in any way meaningful, you go right ahead mate.
 
I have no intention of getting involved in a flame war

Great, dont then, just provide some meaningfull evidence


. If you want to go on pretending that comparisons between a 50m2 apt in brisbane and a 50m2 apt. in tokyo is in any way meaningful, you go right ahead mate.

Can you explain why it is different?

Do the Japanese have some form of miraculous shrinking machine that makes a 50m2 appartment more usable to them when they walk through the door?

Heres that link again just for you. Make sure you pick the CBD areas and not out in the sticks to suit your argument

http://www.realestate-tokyo.com/sale/guide/

heres some others, all in english

http://www.century21japan.com/index.html

http://www.housingjapan.net/tokyo_realestate/index.php

http://www.realestate-tokyo.com/

Just for you, heres a yahoo one in english
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Japan/Prefectures/Tokyo/Real_Estate/Agencies/

Please find me something that a comfortable home for the wife and kids in the city that is 3 times average wage years


Dave
 
Can you explain why it is different?

Do the Japanese have some form of miraculous shrinking machine that makes a 50m2 appartment more usable to them when they walk through the door?


Please find me something that a comfortable home for the wife and kids in the city that is 3 times average wage years

Dave

All of the properties on the yahoo link i provided are in the dead center of tokyo.

as far as why it is not meaningful to compare a 50m2 apt in brisbane/sydney to a 50m2 apt in Tokyo, that requires a degree of cultural understanding. i know it is a waste of time to try to convince you that there might be something you don't know, but i will give it a shot anyway.

japanese homes are small. small homes are the standard. the standard is not 120m2 in the heart of tokyo. the standard is much smaller. i lived in hokkaido where a big apt was 75m2. i had visitors from tokyo who marvelled at how spacious our place was.

japanese homes tend to have very little in the way of furniture. rooms also tend to be multi purpose. people sleep on futons, which are folded up and put away in the morning, allowing the "bedroom" to be used like any other room. sliding doors create large open spaces easily.

appliances, furniture, etc. all tend to be much smaller and take up much less space. you dont have ensuites, you dont have media rooms, you dont have walk in closets. they are very small and that is the standard because you have 120 million people living on a piece of land the size of california, most of which is mountainous.

the greater tokyo area has about 12 million people in it, compared to what? 3 million in sydney?

that is why you dont get 200m2 4 bedroom single family dwellings as the standard residence in downtown tokyo. that is why you get 50m2 apartments that a family of four lives in without feeling particularly uncomfortable.

it is a different country, with different rules and different standards.

you are using websites targetting non-japanese. people who typically come over with a nice ex-pat package. my website targets japanese people. they are not high class luxury apts in the fashionable districts of town (i.e. your roppongi hills listing). they are the kinds of apartments that normal people live in. since we were talking about median prices, about the "average" family, my listings seem more representative. you can read it in english using the translation link. you can see that there are plenty of apartments available for under 3-4X annual income. of course you can--and have--go and dig out advertisements for extremely expensive places, and there are many extremely expensive places in tokyo. but there are also a lot of affordable ones.

you are trying to make comparisons with an area about which you have absolutely no understanding.
 
. i know it is a waste of time to try to convince you that there might be something you don't know, but i will give it a shot anyway.

.

Is coming across as a twit a special skill you learned while being shoehorned into those overpriced dogboxes.:rolleyes:

Are you now agreeing that price/m2 for inner Tokyo is more expensive than here?

The 120m2 I used was the standard that was used on the original site I linked to, you know, so as to keep a standard world wide.

Just because Japan lives in doll houses doesnt change the fact that they are expensive/m2 compared to wages.

Dave
 
Is coming across as a twit a special skill you learned while being shoehorned into those overpriced dogboxes.:rolleyes:

Dave

I treat others as they treat me mate. you have been insulting and rude, i felt obliged to return the favor. you show absolutely no interest in learning the reality of the situation in japan and instead seem intent only on picking a fight and sticking to your hopelessly mistaken preconceptions. so yes, when i feel utter disdain for someone i don't mind showing it.
 
Are you now agreeing that price/m2 for inner Tokyo is more expensive than here?

The 120m2 I used was the standard that was used on the original site I linked to, you know, so as to keep a standard world wide.

Just because Japan lives in doll houses doesnt change the fact that they are expensive/m2 compared to wages.

Dave

so you arbitrarily choose a standard that has nothing to do with the reality on the ground and extrapolate from there? whatever floats your boat.

I don't see anything in your posts comparing prices/m2. i see you attempting to compare dwellings. hence your assertion that "average japanese pay 15-54x their annual income for a house". nowhere do you talk about m2.

my point, which you have skillfully managed to ignore, is that the "average dwelling" in japan is very different from the average dwelling in australia. it never occurred to me that this would be such a difficult concept to comprehend.
 
I treat others as they treat me mate. you have been insulting and rude, i felt obliged to return the favor. you show absolutely no interest in learning the reality of the situation in japan and instead seem intent only on picking a fight and sticking to your hopelessly mistaken preconceptions. so yes, when i feel utter disdain for someone i don't mind showing it.

And where did I do that?

I make a post, you come back and say my source is crap

Seems you showed the disrespect first

My post

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmed_cockles
What are the house price to income ratios like?

Average wage in Japan per month


Quote:
http://www.japaneconomynews.com/2008...r-and-welfare/
On Friday, the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare released its labor survey for November 2007. From the data, we see that cash earnings in that month stood at 290,302 yen on average, up 0.1% from a year before. This is the second of eleven reported months in 2007 that have seen an increase in wage. The only other month to see an increase was August.
Tokyo 120m2 (average size?) appartment costs $1,902,920 USD
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/A.../Rental-Yields

Wednesday, November 26, 2008
1,902,920 US Dollar = 183,184,270 Japanese Yen

Which equates to 52.58 wage years for the average Japanese wage earner to get an average Tokyo property.

How does that compare to the average Australian worker on $57,000/year getting a slice of capital city property here?

Dave

your post

Well, the first thing would be to look for more reliable sources for your data. the average price for an average apt. in tokyo is NOT 2 million dollars. Not even during the bubble. your information is just plain wrong.

secondly, you are comparing (absurdly mistaken
) tokyo housing prices with Japanese average wages. tokyo average wages are going to be significantly higher.

thirdly, monthly wages are not a fair estimator of annual wages in Japan due to the bonus system. at my last job my annual bonuses were the equivalent of 5.25 months of wages.

fourthly, i love the way the website cites itself as the source for its tokyo real estate figures. hilarious.

followed by

I don't recall making any such comparisons, but let's set that aside.

The notion that median prices for tokyo apts are 2 million dollars is so absurd as to not require any proof. Walk up to any person from tokyo and make that assertion. Watch them laugh at you. There's your proof. However, since I am a helluva nice guy, here's a link:

http://used.realestate.yahoo.co.jp/b...=0&year=0&lo=6

Once you learn how to read japanese you will see that i am right.

As far as my other points - if you don't want to believe me that's fine. I don't really care either way. a modicum of research on your part would confirm my statements, but if you can't be bothered to do the research I don't see why I should--I already know that I'm right.



Who's being an insulting and rude twit? (hands urchin a mirror)



Dave
 
so you arbitrarily choose a standard that has nothing to do with the reality on the ground and extrapolate from there? whatever floats your boat.

I don't see anything in your posts comparing prices/m2. i see you attempting to compare dwellings. hence your assertion that "average japanese pay 15-54x their annual income for a house". nowhere do you talk about m2.

my point, which you have skillfully managed to ignore, is that the "average dwelling" in japan is very different from the average dwelling in australia. it never occurred to me that this would be such a difficult concept to comprehend.


Like comparing a country that drives BMW's and another that rides bicycles and saying they are both transport, so they get the same comparison points

Dave
 
And where did I do that?

I make a post, you come back and say my source is crap

Seems you showed the disrespect first

Who's being an insulting and rude twit? (hands urchin a mirror)

Dave

but the source is crap. i wasnt insulting you and i apologize if that is how it sounded--it just seemed so absurd to me that people might think the average apt. in tokyo went for 2 million+ . i apologize if it came off like i was insulting you--i was referring to the source.

you went on to say that my listing was BS and that because i was posting a japanese listing i was somehow trying to pull one over on you whereas i thought i was posting more accurate information.

anyway, a misunderstanding. i never intended to insult you (well, not initially anyway). apologies.
 
Urchin, be careful how you post.

BB has been around along time and during that time has shown himself to be intelligent and willing to read others' posts.

Take a deep breath and read more carefully what has been said. If you have better data and understand the language then post a correction. But do it with less arrogance.
 
Prove it wrong

The cphg crowd and doomers in general are happy enough to compare average Australian wages with Sydney and or Australian capital city house prices, why is that different to Japan average wages and Tokyo prices?

Dave

Comparing average wages and high end property is stupid (think we agree on that). It's also stupid to compare high end wages and low end property and claim that it is "affordable" (a common argument around here). Bottom line is somebody actually has to have the capacity over their lifetime to pay for the thing. Comparing a median income for a city and the median house makes sense to me - that ratio blown out to silly levels due to the assistance of easy debt substituting as 'income'. It is correcting as we speak.
 
Comparing average wages and high end property is stupid (think we agree on that). It's also stupid to compare high end wages and low end property and claim that it is "affordable" (a common argument around here). Bottom line is somebody actually has to have the capacity over their lifetime to pay for the thing. Comparing a median income for a city and the median house makes sense to me - that ratio blown out to silly levels due to the assistance of easy debt substituting as 'income'. It is correcting as we speak.

I think you're all missing the point.

What BoatBoy is saying is VERY valid.

The definition of an 'average dwelling' changes over time. This hides the real growth in property.

One big house gets converted into two townhouses and the yield is reset. Two townhouses -> a six pack -> a 10+ story MUD. Whoever owns that house has done well, even if there has been zero change to the 'average dwelling price'.

All those 'average dwelling' studies fail to recognise this. The lifestyle I enjoyed in all of the 'average dwellings' I lived in in Tokyo, Hong Kong and the UK were nothing like that in my average Australian dwelling.
 
What happened to the long held belief that property investing value is in the land , not the house.

Its the land that appreciates over the years, as the mantra goes.

Does that only count when its convenient?

I think you're all missing the point.

What BoatBoy is saying is VERY valid.

The definition of an 'average dwelling' changes over time. This hides the real growth in property.

One big house gets converted into two townhouses and the yield is reset. Two townhouses -> a six pack -> a 10+ story MUD. Whoever owns that house has done well, even if there has been zero change to the 'average dwelling price'.

All those 'average dwelling' studies fail to recognise this. The lifestyle I enjoyed in all of the 'average dwellings' I lived in in Tokyo, Hong Kong and the UK were nothing like that in my average Australian dwelling.
 
What happened to the long held belief that property investing value is in the land , not the house.

Its the land that appreciates over the years, as the mantra goes.

Does that only count when its convenient?

The value of the land increases as the potential density increases, as David suggests.
 
Yes i know that as i have done a few small developments in the 90s. But its not really answering my question.

Sorry, OK to answer your questions...

1. What happened to the long held belief that property investing value is in the land, not the house.

Nothing happened to this belief. It still stands.

2. Its the land that appreciates over the years, as the mantra goes.

Correct.

3. Does that only count when its convenient?

No, it always counts.

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
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