How do I find out what is the "standard" fence for our area?

[wylie]

We have been approached by the neighbour to an IP who has asked if we are prepared to pay half the cost of a new fence. The existing fence is pretty bad, mostly held up by star pickets and wire, so we are happy to pay for half a fence.

However, they have requested we pay for half a six foot timber fence ($2,370 for our half) for their privacy as they are building a new house to live in at the rear of the existing house and want privacy for the new house plus the front house which will be rented. This type of fence will use more timber than one with gaps and they want it six feet tall. It runs 60 metres front to back.

I returned the neighbour's call and told her we are happy to pay for our half of the "normal" fence for the area. I said we would not be needing the fence to be six feet and four feet would be tall enough for us. She then said they wanted privacy.

I said I was happy if they want the higher fence, but we would only be prepared to pay for half of a "normal" fence, ie. a four foot fence. I sensed a coolness enter the phone line......

She will give us the quote from her builder of $79 sqm. I called my fencing chap who quoted $70 sqm for six feet and between $62/64 sqm for four feet. Because I assume for privacy they will be wanting no gaps in the timbers, this means more cost, something we don't wish to pay for.

Our fencer told us that in his opinion we need only pay for half of a four foot chain wire fence, as this is pretty common for the area. I have requested an email quote for 60 metres of 4 foot chain wire fence but was too late to catch anybody, so will have to get that quote tomorrow.

Even his quote for a four foot timber fence came to $1,860/$1,920 for our half. Chain wire will be cheaper still, so a big saving for us. Once it has something growing over it, we don't care if it is chain wire.

I googled Dividing Fences and read the Caxton Legal Service paperwork on the Dividing Fences Act but it does not cover the situation where one wants a superior fence to that considered "normal" for the area. I checked the BCC website but cannot seem to find out what is a "normal" fence for the area. Our fencer lives locally, and I assume he has a fair idea of what is "normal" for this area. I am sure he has come up against this question many times.

The Caxton Legal paperwork did say they should be providing us with two quotes. They only have one, from the builder who is building their house. We popped over today with our tenant's approval to see the site. Their builder has set tall fence uprights already for about one third of the length as part of a large sandstone retaining wall, so he probably thinks he will be getting the job.

Our plan is to wait for the quote for the chain wire fence and tell the neighbour we are happy to pay for half that quote, and that if they want to build a fence that gives more privacy for their new house, or is higher, it is their cost over and above the figure we are happy to pay.

While the existing fence was pretty bad, it still worked as a fence. Their cutting of their block has removed all our garden, scrappy as it was, and really, we could get stroppy that we were not informed. They also placed a large skip in our front yard (obviously they asked our tenant), which we also don't have an issue with, except that if somebody had been hurt, our insurance may have been jeopardised (not sure of this).

I am just a bit peeved at how they have gone about this.

Is our agreement to pay half of a four foot fence sounding reasonable?

I don't want to create any bad blood with these neighbours, but feel that their desire for a fence to their liking is going to cost us considerably more than we are "obliged" to pay.

 

[moyjos]

How do I find out what is the "standard" fence for our area?

Are you reasonably near the area? can you take photos of "standard fences"
or google street view??

 

[wylie]

We live a few streets away. A chain wire fence would certainly be considered standard, as would a timber fence, or a stucco block fence. I think what our fencer was saying was that, in his opinion, we could get away with paying for half a chain wire fence. If they want better than that, they can pay the extra.

There is a chain wire fence on the other side of our IP, and front front fence, and the back fence, so we have no problem with that being acceptable, but obviously not to the neighbours .

To be honest, if they had gone about it differently, and given us some warning about suddenly wanting $2.5K we may have agreed to pay more, but when I said I thought six feet was higher than we would want, she got a bit "funny" and it just made me dig my heels in.

For our IP a six foot timber fence on one side with three sides chain wire would look silly, but if that is what they want, they can pay the extra.

 

[Dazz]

Your approach to the subject matter seems quite reasonable and logical to me.


If they request a superior level of specification over and above the required minimum, and insist upon it, it would be incumbent upon them to foot the bill for the excess spec.


This approach however would almost guarantee "bad-blood" from your neighbours toward yourself.....however fair it may seem from your side.

 

[handyandy]

"While the existing fence was pretty bad, it still worked as a fence. Their cutting of their block has removed all our garden, scrappy as it was, and really, we could get stroppy that we were not informed."

Don't understand the 'removed all our garden". Have they entered your property to access theirs?

All up you are only talking about a difference of $500-600. If you don't care about the relations with the neighbor then stick to your guns (I would stay with the cheaper option).

I also thought that its fairly standard that when developments are afoot its the developer that foots the bill for the re fencing.

In the past I was in a similar situation where I had paid for half dividing fence where neighborhood built new house. previously there was no fence. At the time of assessing the quotes I mentioned that the fence shouldn't be 1.8m to the road but should be racked back. Next time I was out at property (some 6 months later) the fence had been altered to reduce height to the set back.

They then approached me for half the money to cover this work, well I just saw red and told them to stick it. Neighborly relations out the window and the whole street knew about it after the shouting match out the front because I wouldn't cough up the dough. This also eventuated in a 'disagreement' with the council about my down pipes (non existent) after being dobbed in by you know who.

Cheers

 

[Stella]

I always thought it was 1/2 the cost of replacing with a fence similar or the same as the original fence - materials and size?

We had a similar discussion with our ppor fence last year. 1 neighbor didnt want ot change to colorbond so only wanted to pay for 1/2 timber fence as it was timber we were replacing. Lucky for us his wife got in his ear & he realised he had wanted colorbond all along

 

[wylie]

In reference to TPFKAD's thoughts.....This is how we think too. What I didn't mention earlier was that when I said we were happy to pay for the "standard" and things cooled a little on the phone, she then told me "well your tenants have some issues". I said I hoped they were not big issues. She said "I won't discuss it with you because I have not talked to them."

I know the tenant fairly well and believe the "issues" are probably just two teenage daughters and associated yelling matches (just like we have in our house ). This is not my problem, and if the neighbour has issues, she needs to deal with the problem, but I thought it was really sneaky and a bit underhand..... if you don't agree to what we want, I will try to make you feel bad about you having tenants with "issues".

Their son caused a few "issues" when he used to join our previous tenants drinking and making nuisances of themselves with loud music, so I thought it a bit rich of her to try to resort to that in order to get us to feel bad and agree to pay more.

I really don't want to cause bad blood, but unless we agree to their "dream fence" I believe they will feel that way, and we are not prepared to fund their "dream fence" just to keep them sweet.

 

[wylie]

Don't understand the 'removed all our garden". Have they entered your property to access theirs?

Absolutely. They have erected a temporary scrappy wire fence inside our yard. I am sure they have run this past our tenants, but not us. Our garden edging is gone (I think) and our plants are all gone. We don't care about this, as the existing plants were just scrappy garden beds with green plants, nothing special, but they wouldn't have known that.

If they whine about wanting privacy, we will remind them that they had plenty of it until they pulled all our bushes and plants out.

My brother does the gardening, and it really is not an issue as he was always having to trim this stuff back, but a phone call to us to check if we wanted to discuss it first would have been nice.

All up you are only talking about a difference of $500-600. If you don't care about the relations with the neighbor then stick to your guns (I would stay with the cheaper option).

The difference between the 1200 and 1800 timber is $510 for our half, but when the quote for the chain wire comes in, I think it will be considerably less again. I don't really like chain wire fences, but when three sides are already chain wire, then the fourth side is acceptable to us. We will plant something to grow over it anyway.

I also thought that its fairly standard that when developments are afoot its the developer that foots the bill for the re fencing.

If they were not building in the back, at some stage they would have approached us, or us them, to replace the poor excuse for an existing fence, so we are happy to pay our share, but not fund their "dream fence".

In the past I was in a similar situation where I had paid for half dividing fence where neighborhood built new house. previously there was no fence. At the time of assessing the quotes I mentioned that the fence shouldn't be 1.8m to the road but should be racked back. Next time I was out at property (some 6 months later) the fence had been altered to reduce height to the set back.

They then approached me for half the money to cover this work, well I just saw red and told them to stick it. Neighborly relations out the window and the whole street knew about it after the shouting match out the front because I wouldn't cough up the dough. This also eventuated in a 'disagreement' with the council about my down pipes (non existent) after being dobbed in by you know who.

Cheers

They also put the big skip in our yard without consulting us. I don't know where we would have stood had someone been injured. I just think they could have approached us before doing any of this.

 

[The Fence]

Having installed dividing fences for many years on the centyral Coast NSW I can tell you categorically (for that area anyway) that you only need to pay half the cost of the "normal' fence for that area.....

Now....we get down to the specifics....if the existing fence is totally buggered and 'needs' replacing then they can replace it and bill you for half and you will have to pay..I know, I've installed fences under these conditions and the neighbours have had to pay after disagreeing to...but only after 3 quote have been presented and appropriate notification and discussion taken place beforehand.....sounds reasonable to me...

On the coast it was generally a 5ft hight timber paling fence as the minimum....unless you are in an estate that has covenants requiring a specific style of fence....

If there is one thing that gets neighbours offside it is the fence between them....ahhh the stories I have witnessed....

The best was a couple of neighbours who live next door to each other for 25yrs plus and were great friends...then came the time to replace the fence.....it ended up in court.....shouldn't have but it did....they turned nasty towards each other and neither would give an inch....scary stuff really but I saw it all the time......us contractors specify that the person getting the quote is the person who pays the WHOLE amount and the client recovers the other half from their neighbour after privately....otherwise we'd be in court every week....

Now on a brighter note....if adults can be adults and just open their minds a little....it's only a fence and so long as you get a good fencer and good product you may never have to do it again.....but I agree if the neighbour wants privacy ov er and above the 'normal' level then that's their extra....

Good luck....remember...diplomatic...

 

[wylie]

Good luck....remember...diplomatic...

Absolutely . I don't want this to become a big issue, and would be less peeved if they had simply picked up the telephone weeks ago before ripping out our gardens, encroaching on our tenants' quiet enjoyment and yard space with the temp fence, and deciding what THEY want and just hitting us for nearly $2.5K with no notice whatsoever..... and not a hint of "would you like a say in what type of fence we chose?", and a rather cool response when I was not jumping with enthusiasm about their new, tall, private fence.

 

[The Fence]

Yeah...I'm with ya Wylie....

It's a tough call but I'd say you have the upper hand if push comes to shove, as they seem to 'need' the fence and you don't.... and they would have to 'make' you pay if they go ahead.....they don't realise it yet, but you are their most important ally in getting what they want...they just don't "know" it yet....IYKWIM........diplomatically of course and all things recorded....

I seem to remember a PM I used to do these jobs for getting an "order to pay' from Council or somewhere....?

I always had to quote the owners prefered fence and also the 'normal' fence price for the neighbour to pay half of.

 

[Dazz]

Remember as well that a fence has "width" in a practical sense. The bigger and fancier fences have obviously more width to them.

I would suggest you be wary of eactly where the piers and other fat objects of the fence are. If she's over 60m long, and they put the full width of the fence entirely on your side, such that the nice flat smooth side is right on their border, you could be losing up to 10sqm of land.

Whoever is erecting is is usually going to favour that side......i.e. you'll be on the receiving end of both the ugly side of the fence and perhaps the entire width of the construction.

 

[RumpledElf]

Pay for half the dream fence if they replace your plants with mature ones of the same size

Might get the wind up em when they realise what mature plants cost.

 

[The Fence]

Think you'll find that the fence needs to be put equally within the boundary...that is half each side.....I don't know of any fence that is any wider than say 200mm (posts)....and you don't lose any land, you still own it, just the fence may be 'encroaching'...

I understand a fence was able to be 150mm off the line and still be not encroaching....Central Coast NSW anyway...

These are my personal experiences only.....

 

[The Fence]

you'll be on the receiving end of both the ugly side of the fence ....

That's also subjective....I used to calm alot of neighbours down when they found out they got the 'ugly' side of a paling fence...that is the side with the fence rails and posts showing......

I'd tell them that indeed the fence is half and half on the boundary and that the neighbours pesky kids or burglars could not climb up the fence rails and hop over into their place.....generally this was recieved rather well...a sort of one upmanship look would come across their face....

 

[wylie]

When we popped around today it was very hard to see what was where. I would like to think that with the massive sandstone blocks they have used to retain the cut that the fence posts on our side of the huge, huge retaining blocks are on the boundary and that they have not put the massive 18 inch thick blocks on the boundary which would place the fence very much inside our yard.

It does worry me a bit, and we will check it, because our block is 906 sqm but long and narrow, and it could come down to the wire if/when we want to use that side of the block as a driveway to the back section that can be developed. If we cannot verify the boundary peg markers, I think we would be well served to get the surveyor who did the job to pop back and check it.

Because we own the block behind this one, once we actually get to the back of the block, we will be able to see how the stones "line up" with the side boundary of our block over the back fence (ie. the side boundary should run straight from one street through to the parallel street), but it did concern me today.

On the quick inspection today there was so much "stuff" in the way that I couldn't see survey pegs, but I would hope that their builder would be following pegs. We had the whole double block surveyed three years ago, so the pegs were there. Certainly something we will be double checking.

 

[Ausprop]

the rules in Qld seem tougher than WA. In WA you can't slug an owner of vacant land for their share of the fence - until they complete a residence on it at least. Today a bloke in mt isa has slugged me for half a section of fence and it's so expensive... $182/m includeds a 150mm concrete nib wall... any clues what that may be? am I also funding a dream fence? I am one of many owners being hit up... gross bill is an impresisve $24,000

 

[Sheryn]

Wylie

Agree

1. Check surveyors boundary pegs, run a string line down the boundary first.

2. Pay for half a 'standard fence' after construction - tell her you have phoned around for verbal quotes and the average chain, 4' foot timber, or post and wire fence is $62.00 per metre x 60 metres = $1860.

3. There already is a 'cool relationship' and you don't live next to them.

4. Make sure you type up something and get both of you to sign.

5. Google 'Dividing Fences Act' - I did for NSW a couple of years ago.

Our current situation
Neighbour next to our unit agreed to fence, signed for fence, wanted to pay in 4 x payments & has not paid any $. Also said she would prefer a colourbond fence, but backed down when we said OK - you organise colourbond fence and we will pay you.

Neighbour has not responded to requests for payment, letter from Community Justice Centre for mediation and I have sent of Letter of Demand with a copy of her signature agreeing to fence, next step will be Statement of Claim from court house (i think that is where I go).


Good Luck
Sheryn

 

[Perp]

I always thought it was 1/2 the cost of replacing with a fence similar or the same as the original fence - materials and size?

No, that's not the case in QLD; it's whatever is consistent with the standard for the area, and of course that's quite subjective, hence why so many problems.

Wylie, I understand that you're a bit annoyed with them (and rightly) re the plants, fence, skip, no notice, etc, but in fairness, I think I your neighbours are being quite reasonable, actually, in suggesting that a 6 foot timber paling fence is "standard".

I had a dispute with my psycho neighbour (the one who accused me of attempting to murder her husband ) over the fence a few years ago, and had one of those 20 minute free legal consultations over the phone with a "neighbourhood disputes" expert. He said that of those cases that get to court in Brisbane, the vast majority result in an order to fence directing that each party pay half the cost of a 6 foot timber fence. (In some suburbs a higher standard is imposed, but a lower standard is quite unusual.)

Don't even mention a chain wire fence. I don't think that's reasonable, and will only serve to turn cool relations into frosty legal letters.

 

[wylie]

Don't even mention a chain wire fence. I don't think that's reasonable, and will only serve to turn cool relations into frosty legal letters.

Even if the other three sides of our property and the one behind and beside, are all chain wire? Several fences in the street are chain wire with timber and others are chain wire with metal, so it is pretty "standard" and they have got my back up now, but I am keeping quiet until I have the quotes.

I am going to see what the chain wire quote comes in at, and take it from there. Chain wire certainly is "normal" in Coorparoo, as is four foot timber, and three foot stucco..... as you say, it is very subjective.

The thing that mostly peeved me was the sneaky mention of how "my tenants" are less than ideal, like that should mean we pay more, when the objections to their new house in the back had several mentions from people in the street of the six or so vehicles that are parked in the street, and it was her son who was adding to the issues we had with our very first tenants there.

We would also be more amenable if they had bothered to give us some idea that they might one day ring us up and ask for a pile of money for the fence of "their" choice, which I don't believe is standard for the street, or the area.

Anyway, I am awaiting their quote, and my quote and will look at it again then.

If they are not happy with our offer, then they are welcome to instigate legal proceedings, but I don't really think they will win that one. If they do, we are no worse off than if we agreed to pay half their "dream fence" right now, and things are already slightly frostly already.

They have never been particularly friendly when we were renovating there, so it is not like we are losing a "friendly neighbour".