How do I find out what is the "standard" fence for our area?

[Perp]

they have got my back up now

I think this is the most pertinent information in the thread.

Even if the other three sides of our property and the one behind and beside, are all chain wire? Several fences in the street are chain wire with timber and others are chain wire with metal

My understanding is that the Court thinks about what would be standard if new homes were being constructed in that area now; which may not be the same as the older fencing. So even if chain wire was standard 50 years ago when the houses were built, and many of those houses and fences still remain, unless new developments in the area predominantly use chain wire (or equivalent), it's unlikely to be considered the "standard" for new fencing. ie They'll look at what the "standard" is amongst recently erected fences.

If most new fences in the area are chain wire, then sure, your position is entirely reasonable, and you stick it to 'em.

I'm just trying to answer your question about how "standard" is determined, FYI. I don't care what fence goes in, and am naturally inclined to want to back you up, actually.

 

[RumpledElf]

Times like these I'm glad *I* am doing my subdivision, so the boundary fence will be a perfectly normal 5 foot zincalume fence. It would look ridiculous if we had a 6 foot colourbond one there.

Fences have to be 5 foot or under so neighbours can stickybeak over the fences. We chat to all three of our neighbours, the old guy behind (been there for 30 years) has nothing but bad things to say about both previous owners of our house! Although we did find out how the first owner died, sounded quite gruesome.

The new estates either have wire, chainwire or no fences (big 1 acre lots) or 6 foot colourbond (on the 500sqm block size new estates).

 

[josko]

Having installed dividing fences for many years on the centyral Coast NSW I can tell you categorically (for that area anyway) that you only need to pay half the cost of the "normal' fence for that area.....

Now....we get down to the specifics....if the existing fence is totally buggered and 'needs' replacing then they can replace it and bill you for half and you will have to pay..I know, I've installed fences under these conditions and the neighbours have had to pay after disagreeing to...but only after 3 quote have been presented and appropriate notification and discussion taken place beforehand.....sounds reasonable to me...

On the coast it was generally a 5ft hight timber paling fence as the minimum....unless you are in an estate that has covenants requiring a specific style of fence....

If there is one thing that gets neighbours offside it is the fence between them....ahhh the stories I have witnessed....

The best was a couple of neighbours who live next door to each other for 25yrs plus and were great friends...then came the time to replace the fence.....it ended up in court.....shouldn't have but it did....they turned nasty towards each other and neither would give an inch....scary stuff really but I saw it all the time......us contractors specify that the person getting the quote is the person who pays the WHOLE amount and the client recovers the other half from their neighbour after privately....otherwise we'd be in court every week....

Now on a brighter note....if adults can be adults and just open their minds a little....it's only a fence and so long as you get a good fencer and good product you may never have to do it again.....but I agree if the neighbour wants privacy ov er and above the 'normal' level then that's their extra....

Good luck....remember...diplomatic...

This is a very sensible post Thorpey - Kudos to you.

Don't let it get to you WYlie, as I'm sure you are not.

I hope your pegs are still there.

Most of you are going to find this next paragraph strange...even horrifying.

Husband is a Surveyor. We have some absolutely fantastic neighbors. They are just unbelieveablÿ good folk. They insisted they pay for the adjoining fence between our properties. My husband was asked if he wanted to peg the boundary out for the fencing.

Husband's reply, "Put it where you want, we trust you." Go figure. Maybe husband has seen his fair share of fence fights too.

Needless to say, it was obvious where the fence should go.

There were a fews beers shared over the top of the fence that afternoon.

Regards JO

 

[RumpledElf]

I had a house years ago with a terrible boundary fence.

Landlord next door said he'd picked up some Colourbond seconds and would get his tenants to install it in leiu of rent. I had to pay half of the sheeting.

Cost me $200 for my share of a 55m fence, and it didn't look half bad at the end either

 

[Olly]

I worked in fencing (selling it) for many years and bought a copy of the act myself to help customers who came in and asked for advice and also for my own fencing dispute I had with a neighbour of mine.

Everyone seems to know that there is a minimum standard of fencing and what can be disputed is everything over and above this. Also, that everyone knows they don't really know what standard or normal fencing means because they put the word(s) in quote marks. You might be surprised to find what constitutes a dividing fence.

First port of call should be council to see if they have any rules or guidelines specific to the area. (e.g. Some councils don't allow colorbond for example).

If you want to stick to your guns then I think a letter pointing out the skip bin and dismantling of the existing fence/damage to planting also without permission should be mentioned. Also mention that they should have approached you (the owner of the property) not the tenants of the rental property in order to carry out some of the work they've done already. Had they have done so amicable decisions may have been reached as to further work to be carried out i.e. the fence. Also mention that the proper notifications weren't given as per the Dividing Fencing Act 1991 and quote a couple of sections to show you know what you're talking about.

Good luck with it all.

The Dividing Fences Act 1991 (NSW) is online here - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/dfa1991137/

Here's a couple of quotes from the act:
3. Definitions
In this Act:
"adjoining owners" means the owners of land on either side of a common boundary.
"dividing fence" means a fence separating the land of adjoining owners, whether on the common boundary of adjoining lands or on a line other than the common boundary.
"fence" means a structure, ditch or embankment, or a hedge or similar vegetative barrier, enclosing or bounding land, whether or not continuous or extending along the whole of the boundary separating the land of adjoining owners, and includes:

(a) any gate, cattlegrid or apparatus necessary for the operation of the fence, and

(b) any natural or artificial watercourse which separates the land of adjoining owners, and

(c) any foundation or support necessary for the support and maintenance of the fence,

but does not include a retaining wall (except as provided by paragraph (c)) or a wall which is part of a house, garage or other building.
"fencing work" means:

(a) the design, construction, replacement, repair or maintenance of the whole or part of a dividing fence, and

(b) the surveying or preparation of land (including the trimming, lopping or removal of vegetation) along or on either side of the common boundary of adjoining lands for such a purpose,

and includes:

(c) the planting, replanting and maintenance of a hedge or similar vegetative barrier, and

(d) the cleaning, deepening, enlargement or alteration of a ditch, embankment or watercourse that serves as a dividing fence.

4 Determination as to “sufficient dividing fence”

In any proceedings under this Act, the Local Court or a local land board is to consider all the circumstances of the case when determining the standard for a sufficient dividing fence for the purposes of this Act, including the following:

(a) the existing dividing fence (if any),

(b) the purposes for which the adjoining lands are used or intended to be used,

(c) the privacy or other concerns of the adjoining land owners,

(d) the kind of dividing fence usual in the locality,

(e) any policy or code relating to dividing fences adopted by the council of the local government area in which the adjoining lands are situated,

(f) any relevant environmental planning instrument relating to the adjoining lands or to the locality in which they are situated,

(g) in the case of a dividing fence affecting land the subject of a lease under the Western Lands Act 1901 , any order in force under section 18A of that Act.

6 General principle-liability for fencing work

(1) An adjoining owner is liable, in respect of adjoining lands where there is no sufficient dividing fence, to contribute to the carrying out of fencing work that results or would result in the provision of a dividing fence of a standard not greater than the standard for a sufficient dividing fence.

(2) This section applies whether or not a dividing fence already separates the adjoining lands.

 

[regrow]

the rules in Qld seem tougher than WA. In WA you can't slug an owner of vacant land for their share of the fence - until they complete a residence on it at least.

On our first build we did ask the owner of the property to coff up half and they paid without any hassels.

Below is from the Dividing Fences Rights and Responsibilities Booklet for WA, found at :
http://www.dhw.wa.gov.au/policy/policy_dividingfences.cfm

Erecting a New Fence
The best way to erect a fence is by agreement between the adjoining owners. Such an agreement should be in writing and should include details regarding payment. The following procedure to obtain an agreement is recommended.
Step 1 – Giving Notice
Give notice in writing to the owner of the adjoining land.
If you do not know the name and address of the adjoining owner, your local government can provide this information. A notice given to an adjoining owner of a proposal to construct or repair a fence must be in writing.
Each notice must be served by either:
(a) delivering it in person; or
(b) sending it by registered mail to the person’s usual or last known place of residence.
If the notice is to be given to a company it may be served by: -
(a) delivering it to the head office of the company in the State in
which the company is incorporated; or
(b) sending it by registered mail to the company’s principal officer

Step 2 – Court Action
If your adjoining owner does not respond or writes back to you and disputes all or any part of your proposal and you are unable to reach an agreement within 21 days of the service of the notice, you or your adjoining owner may refer the matter for a decision to a Magistrate in the Court of Petty Sessions nearest to where the fence is situated.
The Court can decide:
• whether the fence is necessary;
• what type of fence should be built;
• how long it should take to build;
• the boundary upon which the fence is to be built;
• the level of each adjoining owner’s contribution to the fence and legal costs; and
• a different period of time for payment.
See page 16 “Court Action” .
Notice of the Court’s decision, if it is given to the adjoining owner before the construction of the proposed fence, can compel the adjoining owner to pay half the value of the fence. The adjoining owner has three months within which to comply with the agreement made (Step 1) or to comply with the Order which has been made by the Court of Petty Sessions (Step 2), unless the adjoining owners agree or the Court orders a different period. If after three months you have not received the other owner’s contribution towards the cost of the fence, you may erect the fence and recover half of its cost by applying to the Local Court and issuing a Summons for Debt.
Contact the Clerk of Courts to find out the procedure for lodging a
complaint with the Court.
The Court’s decision is final with no right of appeal.

Hope this helps

Regrow

 

[wylie]

I think this is the most pertinent information in the thread.

LOL. I haven't thought about this all day as we were busy with family visits. Just got home to find the quote for the chain wire to match the three sides of our IP. More about that later.

To be honest, in the three and a half years we have had this IP we have said hello once when we were renovating, but got nothing more than a hello back.

This whole thing has got my back up, by I am not really the type to pursue things or play "dog in the manger" to our detriment, so I am not stomping around ranting about it, just annoyed at how they have gone about things.

I'm not trying to be scabby with the dollars, but we just don't want to fund their choice. If we wanted a timber fence, we would be happy to pay for four foot, with gaps. However, with this IP, we would go chain wire to match the other three sides.

We have another IP in the next street where we requested six foot high timber fence because we thought the neighbours would want privacy for their newly built pool. They have timber fences on three sides, but we could not convince them. They wanted a four foot chain wire fence..... go figure

We acquiesced because they are the ones living there, it saved us lots of dollars and didn't want to upset the apple cart.

Anyway, the chain wire quote is in. Total for four foot x 60 metres is $2100. Our half would be $1050. They want $2,370 from us because they want their "dream fence".

They are not going to be happy if we tell them we are happy to pay for half a four foot timber fence (as evidenced by the frosty silence on the phone which was followed by the sneaky "your tenants have issues" remark - which is what really annoyed me, probably more than anything).

If we offer them $1,050 they are going to be REALLY unhappy. I have spoken to hubby who reckons we offer them half the chain wire quote (and hubby is not tight at all - he doesn't rate money that highly). I think he is annoyed at their whole approach to this too.

I think we will sleep on it. We still don't have their quote.

I suppose when it comes down to it, if we wanted something particular, we would NEVER ask our neighbour for more than the "normal". The time we did (earlier in this post) was because we thought the neighbour would want to match their other fences, and thought they might want privacy, but that wasn't the case.

We didn't ask our neighbour in our PPOR for any money when we redid our fence down that side because the existing chain wire and timber fence was falling over and we wanted to replace it with besser block with stucco finish. We just paid for the lot.

 

[j_p]

the rules in Qld seem tougher than WA. In WA you can't slug an owner of vacant land for their share of the fence - until they complete a residence on it at least. Today a bloke in mt isa has slugged me for half a section of fence and it's so expensive... $182/m includeds a 150mm concrete nib wall... any clues what that may be? am I also funding a dream fence? I am one of many owners being hit up... gross bill is an impresisve $24,000

My understanding of a nib wall is it is like a shelf that extends to the ground. At least that is in showers, I'm guessing it's the same on a fence??

 

[wylie]

I was thinking while I was driving tonight doing the soccer pick up......

If we had decided, with no input from the neighbour, that we would like to replace the existing fence (which is a wire fence, held up by bushes and plants), our first choice would be to match the front, side and back fences and have a matching chain wire fence. I don't particularly like them, but between most of the back yards in this street, chain wire is the norm with plants creating privacy.

The other three fences (back, other side, front) are all chain wire, and we would have chosen that for the fourth side. Timber, especially six feet high will look really silly, and would not have even been considered by us.

I don't like anyone to think we are being stubborn or difficult, but a six foot, butted together solid faced timber fence will look really odd in this situation. If the neighbours want that, I think they can pay the extra.

I feel better now .

 

[marg4000]

The other three fences (back, other side, front) are all chain wire, and we would have chosen that for the fourth side. Timber, especially six feet high will look really silly, and would not have even been considered by us.

Actually, it doesn't.

My mum at Ashgrove had chain wire fences on all sides of the property except the front which was low horizontal timber.

Rear side neighbour was redeveloping the site and it was a requirement that he erect privacy fencing, 6 ft timber palings, for mum's benefit. She was a bit hesitant at first as she was an avid gardener and the fence was on the north-west side and would shade the garden. By agreement the fence was erected with 1" gaps between the palings which let sun and breeze through. It actually finished up looking quite nice and not odd at all.
Marg

 

[wylie]

I don't suppose it will really matter whether it looks silly or not, because we won't be looking at it .

Interesting that your mum's neighbour was obliged to put in the fence to protect your mum's privacy. Was your mum asked to contribute to the cost at all? If the existing fence was not falling down, we would not contribute anything.

Our back neighbours asked us a few years ago if we would pay for half of a new fence (existing one installed half each about three years prior to this request). They wanted to build up their land. Would we be interested in paying half of a retaining wall and new fence on top. No, thank you very much, but thanks for asking!!!

I am curious whether those saying we should pay for half the timber fence would be happy to pay $2,370 for half when a fence that matches the rest of the yard (and other yards in eyesight) can be installed for $1,050 for our half?

Apart from the way the whole thing has unfolded, the day she rang was the very day I had just paid nearly $34K on the credit card for the next four years' school for the youngest son, so we are inclined to "tell 'em they're dreaming" .

New chain wire is a big improvement on the falling down chain wire that has been there for 60 years, so that is what we are inclined to say we will pay half of.

I would not have the gall to ask a neighbour to pay for something that we want, that is so expensive, and so much "over and above" the fences already in the surrounding yards, so I am curious to know what others would do.

 

[marg4000]

As the development behind mum was commercial the privacy fence was deemed necessary by the council and was paid by the developer.
Marg

 

[wylie]

Just got the letter and one quote from the builder who has already put the upright posts behind the huge block wall.

On my quick reading of the fences act, they should be providing two quotes.

They have said "enclosed herewith is a "Notice to Fence" by way of service upon you. We have calculated the cost of the fence constructed by XXXXXXXX Homes to be $4819 and it is proposed that half of this cost is to be payable by you, being $2,408.50".

Goes on to say "the proposed fencing conforms with the type of fencing common to the area."

We plan on writing back saying that we believe that chain wire fencing confirms with the type of fencing common to the area and we are more than happy to pay half the cost of that.

They are quoting the fencing act, but have only provided one quote, from the builder who is building their house .

They mention they wish for privacy, but they have removed all our mature bushes and garden, without asking. We actually don't care, but did they know that?????

They have removed all the privacy they once had between our yards.

Maybe we will ask if they plan to replace the mature garden (as someone here has suggested - thank you), the garden concrete edges, or supply turf for the length of the garden area they have ruined?

NOW I am getting a bit peeved!!! Their letter is not friendly at all, quite officious in fact. "We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your cooperation in this matter and will advise you when the fence is completed so payment of your share of the cost can be made."

I just called the tenant, who said she was never consulted about the existing fence being removed, the garden, trees or bushes removed or the builders traipsing all over her yard. She said she has been hanging washing on the line, turned around and found builders with stuff all over the yard, not a word said. She is not happy, but said she had assumed we knew about all this happening.

Now I'm MAD .

They can go whistle. We will pay half of a chain wire fence and they can take us to court for anything else.

 

[wishing_well0]

I was in a similar position only 2years for a property on the sunshine coast. Other party wanted a colorbond fence and we wanted a 6ft timber fence. Common for the area was 4ft timber.

We sent a letter clearly stating that we were not accepting their quote for the colorbond fence and that it was going to be constructed within 1klm of salt water and that the warrently would be reduced.

We advised that we were happy to pay for the timber fence but not contribute financially in any way for any other fence. They fenced it and paid for it 100%. Last I heard on the matter.

You need to respond in writing -sooner than later clearly stating your position and advising that what they have already done to date has been without your permission and without the required 30days notice not to mention the two quotes. Good Luck.

 

[wylie]

We have our reply ready and it will be in their letterbox this afternoon. We have offered to pay half a chain wire fence, as per the standard for the area. They are not going to be happy, but that is too bad.

If they decide to take us to the tribunal, we will be able to point out that the fence has already been started.

According to the bits of the act I have read, if they build it without getting our approval, we don't have to contribute anything. Starting it is part way there, so they have done the wrong thing just in that regard. They obviously had no intention of getting a second quote, and their quote is from the builder who has already done the retaining and is building their house, so it is hardly an independent quote, let alone that they should provide us with two quotes BEFORE any work is started.

I think we have them over a barrel just on that, and they should be thankful we are prepared to pay to the extent we are.

We will then point out that they came on our property without asking, removed 20 metres of our gardens, garden edging, plants, trees and shrubs and moved the existing fence six feet into our yard. Their builders have been wandering all over our yard without the approval of us or our tenant.

In fact, if they try to take us to the tribunal, we may decide to counter claim for the things they have removed from our yard without our consent. Bloody cheek .

If they had just gone about this differently, we would perhaps have offered a bit more, but they are just rude and arrogant, and I don't think they would have a leg to stand on in court.

Bring it on!!!

 

[jrc]

Leaving aside the issues of how Wylie's neighbours have treated her, a better than standard fence might be attractive to prospective tenants. When we moved last year and were looking for something to rent we discarded several properties immediately because the fencing was inadequate to keep an exploring toddler in the yard and we probably ended up paying more per week and getting a house which internally was slightly less desirable than others because the fencing was a must.

 

[wylie]

You need to respond in writing -sooner than later clearly stating your position and advising that what they have already done to date has been without your permission and without the required 30days notice not to mention the two quotes. Good Luck.

We have had some legal advice when the neighbour didn't like what we offered. This section above is the crux of the matter, and thank you for the advice. Thanks to the others who offered advice.

The free legal brochure on the Fences Act pretty much said the same thing, but your post clarified it for me and saved me reading the whole thing. I was able to hunt down that particular portion, and you are absolutely spot on, so thank you.

After giving the neighbours our quote for 1200 chain wire fence at $2,100 and offering to pay $1,050, they came back to us with an answer stating they didn't have any privacy (duh!! they removed all our vegetation, shrubs and trees which gave great privacy) - that there would need to be a 1800 high fence so our tenants would not fall into the huge put and land on the concrete (duh!! there was not a huge pit until THEY dug it!!).

Anyway, our legal advice is that they have totally done the wrong things -

. started building the fence without any notice to ourselves
. not obtained two quotes
. removed our plants, shrubs and garden beds
. left our yard looking like a tip
. not given us any notice AT ALL
. pretty much everything else

Advice to us is that we are not obliged to pay ONE CENT towards this fence. However, had they gone about this the right way, we would have agreed to replace the chain wire fence that is there already, (looking tired and old, but still working as a fence), so in the interests of doing the right thing (even though they have not done so themselves) we will stick to our agreement to pay $1,050.

We have been advised of just how to word this letter and add a clause to protect ourselves from them coming back at us and saying our letter agrees to fund half a fence (which they can then say means half of the expensive one). We also were advised to state that "we do NOT agree to this fence being built, but seeing that they have already commenced construction, and in the interests of keeping a relationship going, we will provide $1,050 when the fence is built and when our yard is made good" or words to that effect.

I feel quite sure that if the boot was on the other foot, they would not pay us ONE CENT. However, we are happy to do what we have said we will as we are honourable people and I don't want to stoop to their level.

We were also told that we could ask for payment for the mature plants they have removed, but we are not going to stoop to this. We will replant with a much better choice of plants.

Our tenant also is within her rights to claim trespass, but she also will not be stooping to their level.

If these people had only done things "nicely" and even shown us the courtesy of a phone call, they would possibly have received more money from us. They certainly would have received a better reception all round.

 

[wylie]

In the interests of updating this for anyone having fence issues this is the current position....

We sent the letter to the neighbours outlining the legal advice we had, but confirming we would meet the $1,050 already promised, even though the advice was that we need to pay "nothing" and should be claiming for the plants and gardens they have removed and/or damaged.

We got another letter back saying that we were unreasonable, that our quote for a chain wire fence (fencer did not visit the site) was misleading. (Legal advice says we don't need to pay for any clearing of the fence line as they have commenced work on the fence already and the quote they got from the same fencer we asked for a quote for obviously includes clearing the whole fence line including the huge mess they have made with their development).

I would add that we had a 60 metre chain wire fence built about eight years ago and the price was $1,400 so $2,100 seemed pretty fair to us. Their quote was $4,900 from the same chap who quoted us $2,100 without visiting the site. That is a lot of extra for a bit of clearing. Hmmmmm... that is almost the cost of the 1800mm high butted timber fence they desire. How curious?

Anyway, their letter back to us was rather sour and they actually said we would be needing to keep them on side for when we wish to develop our block (bit of blackmail never goes astray ).

They can go whistle.

Council approval doesn't hinge on their objecting to our plans, just as the several neighbours who objected to their plans didn't stop their own development. (We didn't object to their development.)

They just seem to keep trying to play dirty. They will have to fund $1,300 more than we have offered. They originally asked us for $2,370 for half their "dream fence" - we offered $1,050 for half a "standard" fence (replacing what was already there) and believe we are being fair. Our legal advice is to pay nothing, so indeed we are perhaps being rather generous in the circumstances.

They are like a dog with a bone and it will be interesting to see if they take us to mediation. Our advice is they don't have a leg to stand on.

We think they should take the $1,050 offered and be thankful they got any money at all. Obviously they see it differently .

 

[RumpledElf]

Ah, fences. One of mine just blew over - cost about $40 in post/bolts/concrete to fix it. Sheared bolts are ... interesting to look at. The fencepost broke clean through too.

The fence behind my current house is not looking much better (the only thing holding it up is a trellis and a shed on the neighbour's side) and it turns out the neighbours built that fence at the same time the sewerage line was installed - 30+ years ago (same people have had the house behind all this time). I pretty much gave him a year's notice that we'll be redoing the back fence at the same time we install a new middle fence. He seems agreeable about paying half - the rails are 'not there' so you can't even fix it with some new screws. That's a long time to decide whether we want to just redo the posts and rails and reuse the old 5 foot galv or put in an 8 foot privacy fence so we can't talk to the oldies behind over the fence

Your fence saga sounds like it will be far more amusing than ours ...

 

[lizzie]

we're getting a new colourbond fence installed down the side of our backyard - 28m from back of house to back fence - and neighbour is more than happy to pay half. i was quite pleasantly surprised when first quote came in at $1,735 ... that's $870ea for supply and install.

we could have installed it ourself for half that cost - but just no time atm, and for an extra $400 i'm happy to have it done for us!!