Hi Belle
Apologees to you, I didn't realise it was an attack only on skanky strippers.
Cheers
Pete
Last edited:
Hows this for an RE ad?
- Thread starter evand
- Start date
Hi Belle
Apologees to you, I didn't realise it was an attack only on skanky strippers.
Cheers
Pete
Belle, I appreciate where you are coming from to a degree, but on the other hand, I wonder how much money that model was paid for that ad. Bet it's more than what I earned today, and all she had to do was take her top off. I'd say she's pretty smart to take advantage of men's simple thinking. 
Objectification isn’t about the model in this specific video being hurt. It’s much broader than that.
These types of advertisements emphasise that a woman’s value is found in her appearance rather than in what she has to say.
If you’re interested in how sexual objectification has an impact on women perhaps you should do a Google search because I really CBF trying to educate you.
Any woman who has been stared at, beeped at or called out to by a man on the street, sexually harassed in the work place, sexually assaulted or raped hasn’t had a choice. No woman chooses those things and they happen much more frequently to women than they do to men. When media reduces the role of women in society to that of sexual gratification it encourages men to treat women poorly and in the above ways.
I agree men are sexually objectified in media too, but much less frequently than women. Perhaps tomorrow you could take notice of the commercials and advertisements you see on TV, in magazines & newspapers, and online and make a mental note of how many portray women as sex objects and how many portray men as sex objects.
I'd say she's pretty smart to take advantage of men's simple thinking.
I agree, and I'd say the majority of people who are being exploited by strip clubs for example, are men. The few times I've ever been it's been men there that I've felt most sorry for. Ones that probably blow their salary there every week and can't give up the addiction.
So as a feminist, you are claiming that one woman is being exploited, but hundreds (or thousands) of men are being exploited. Does not compute.
That's your point? You do realise the same is true for hairy-legged women seeking fit men right?
Last edited:
I'm not interested in being 'educated' by you. If I want to read about women's issues, I will (and do) read the likes of Christina Hoff Sommers, Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, Cathy Young and Erin Piz.zey. Women that celebrate women's right to be sexual beings, rather than hiding it as something to be ashamed of.
I have a huge amount of respect for feminists like these women as they not only encourage equality between the sexes, but also demand that women take responsibility for their actions and decisions. Mainstream feminism pushes the idea the women are perpetual victims of the patriarchy (which doesn't exist) and need to be protected from the big bad evil men like they are little children.
I've been stared at, beeped at, wolf whistled at. I don't see it as a problem in the slightest, in fact I was flattered. It's only a problem for women when the guy doing it isn't good looking to them. Never once have I ever witnessed a woman complain about any of these things when they thought the guy was 'cute'. Here's a link to a video which sums up 'sexual harassment' fairly accurately:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY
Did you know that in New York State in the mid 90's, 57% of sexual harassment claims were thrown out of court because they had no basis in claim.
Women love to be pursued. They love to play hard to get. If women don't like the actions of some men, then they need to accept that if they want to be chased, then they are going to be chased by men they like and men they don't like. If they are pursued by a man they don't like, then act like an adult and deal with the situation. Don't go hiding behind some judge's robes because it's easier to do than rebuff any advances. Here's a quote by Camille Paglia which sums it up quite nicely:
Pursuit and seduction are the essence of sexuality. It's part of the sizzle.
Please provide examples where the sexual gratification of women in society leads men to treat women poorly. By poorly do you mean as lesser beings? Some of my favourite quotes from Ms Paglia:
It is capitalist America that produced the modern independent woman. Never in history have women had more freedom of choice in regard to dress, behavior, career, and sexual orientation.
Men know they are sexual exiles. They wander the earth seeking satisfaction, craving and despising, never content. There is nothing in that anguished motion for women to envy.
Woman is the dominant sex. Men have to do all sorts of stuff to prove that they are worthy of woman's attention.
So much for the 'simple male mind'.
I don't care how often men or women are portrayed as sexual objects. Human beings are sexual beings! We (both men and women) like to look at and check out attractive members of the opposite sex (and sometimes the same sex). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that in the slightest, it is absolutely the most natural thing in the world to do.
What mainstream feminism and the Conservative Right are trying to do is take away people's right to be sexual and embrace and celebrate their sexuality and for other people to enjoy and appreciate it. I can tell you right now, I will fight every step of the way to ensure that that doesn't happen.
Free and open expression of sexuality is a natural and beautiful thing to be celebrated.
While we are on the subject of portrayal in the media, while women are more often portrayed in a sexual manner, men are portrayed as stupid, bumbling idiots who need to constantly be rescued by their ever patient wives. If a man hits a woman, it's called assault, if a woman hits a man, it's called comedy.
You could look at it from the perspective that the women sell themselves. So is she still the victim then?
Women who want to snag a man for love/attention/children/security/money have been selling themselves since Eve.
I'm a feminist too, btw.
Last edited:
not quite the same - very tastefully done (not like that sleezy house sale commercial) but still rather nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE
again very tasteful (interesting how the "sex sells" of men is rather tasteful, whereas the "sex sells" of women is about big tits and wiggly butts - perhaps indicative of the minds they are trying to entice) ...
again very tasteful (interesting how the "sex sells" of men is rather tasteful, whereas the "sex sells" of women is about big tits and wiggly butts - perhaps indicative of the minds they are trying to entice) ...
Attachments
I wasnt going to enter this but i have to agree with Mark here. I'm so over men being treated as simpletons by the media. And that fact is most men are. Well, when it comes to relationships with woman they are.
They are happy to have their wives run their lives and family and tell them what to do so they dont have to think too hard.
Heres just a couple of examples that really pee me off.
1 The ad where the wife is complaining about how her hubby loves his soccer shirt but she doesnt like him wearing it cause its got a stain on it. He says in all seriousness 'she wont let me wear it cause its stained' then she discovers Sards wonder powder or something. I'm thinking "well wash it yourself you dope, or just wear it with astain on it. Does his life run his every thought and his life.
2 The ad where the bird comes home with her parents and her live in bf has her tampons stuck all over him doing star wars re enactments with sound effects. And she rolls her eyes. FFS? He's a grown man. Men of previous generations would think him a total fool. And he is. Well the ad portrays him to be.
There are others but that will do. Whats going on here?
I have mates who are like this and ive lost respect for them. Its like they have gone from their mums to the girlfriend/wife and want to be treated the same. Have they never grown up?
As for the RE ad. I think the bird in the ad is actually empowering herself and woman to make the decision to do this.
She had the choice and decided to do it. No big deal.
And belle, can you explain why womans mags and ads on tele are always displaying beautiful, thin woman? Isn't that women objectified by their own gender?
They are happy to have their wives run their lives and family and tell them what to do so they dont have to think too hard.
Heres just a couple of examples that really pee me off.
1 The ad where the wife is complaining about how her hubby loves his soccer shirt but she doesnt like him wearing it cause its got a stain on it. He says in all seriousness 'she wont let me wear it cause its stained' then she discovers Sards wonder powder or something. I'm thinking "well wash it yourself you dope, or just wear it with astain on it. Does his life run his every thought and his life.
2 The ad where the bird comes home with her parents and her live in bf has her tampons stuck all over him doing star wars re enactments with sound effects. And she rolls her eyes. FFS? He's a grown man. Men of previous generations would think him a total fool. And he is. Well the ad portrays him to be.
There are others but that will do. Whats going on here?
I have mates who are like this and ive lost respect for them. Its like they have gone from their mums to the girlfriend/wife and want to be treated the same. Have they never grown up?
As for the RE ad. I think the bird in the ad is actually empowering herself and woman to make the decision to do this.
She had the choice and decided to do it. No big deal.
And belle, can you explain why womans mags and ads on tele are always displaying beautiful, thin woman? Isn't that women objectified by their own gender?
Last edited:
Good post Mark.
You know the prevalence of domestic violence/abuse perpetrated by women to men is seriously played down or unknown/hidden. If the true figures were known it would be shocking.
You know the prevalence of domestic violence/abuse perpetrated by women to men is seriously played down or unknown/hidden. If the true figures were known it would be shocking.
Female makes money from ad showing her body...empowering for female who is supposedly 'in charge' in this situation.
Men/women who watch ad & are attracted to female are mostly not thinking 'gee, I'd love to sit down & discuss investing with her as she looks really intelligent & I have heaps of respect for her.'
Young females watching ad (& everyday bombardment of sexual advertising) think, this is how I must portray myself to be attractive -> this really worries me.
Everyone has a right to decide for themselves how to behave sexually & what to do with their bodies: as long as it hurts no-one.
I believe these ads do hurt people.
I also believe for society to move forward, we all have the right to expect more of men. They shouldn't be portrayed as stupid knuckle-draggers. (Some are, some aren't.)
No-one cared to address Belle's point - how would you feel if this was your daughter/sister/mother? Would you be proud of your daughter's 'achievement', would you show her pics around the office?
Really guys, think about it & tell me in all honesty you'd be fine with men/women of all ages thinking about your daughter in the way that people will think about the girl in this ad?
Men/women who watch ad & are attracted to female are mostly not thinking 'gee, I'd love to sit down & discuss investing with her as she looks really intelligent & I have heaps of respect for her.'
Young females watching ad (& everyday bombardment of sexual advertising) think, this is how I must portray myself to be attractive -> this really worries me.
Everyone has a right to decide for themselves how to behave sexually & what to do with their bodies: as long as it hurts no-one.
I believe these ads do hurt people.
I also believe for society to move forward, we all have the right to expect more of men. They shouldn't be portrayed as stupid knuckle-draggers. (Some are, some aren't.)
No-one cared to address Belle's point - how would you feel if this was your daughter/sister/mother? Would you be proud of your daughter's 'achievement', would you show her pics around the office?
Really guys, think about it & tell me in all honesty you'd be fine with men/women of all ages thinking about your daughter in the way that people will think about the girl in this ad?
Last edited:
That's specifically because of the nature of men vs women. Marketers will target what will attract the demographic they're after. Men are visual creatures and respond to visual stimuli much more so than woman ever have or will.
Good example of this - men will grab a playboy, women will grab a trashy novel about a guy 'thrusting his quivering, throbbing member...' Nothing wrong with either of these - male and females respond to different stimuli. But of course because it's more obvious and because women don't think this way - the guy is a pig for being stimulated by a hot chick instead of a description of her.
Meanwhile, let's also not pretend that women don't objectify men. Yes there are those that don't, but there are plenty that do (same with guys). Over the last couple months since I've cut down, I've noticed quite a few girls checking me out and had comments made to others that get back to me. Doesn't bother me in the slightest - means my cutting plan has done well. Should I be offended that women were looking at me in a purely physical, objectifying way??
Some people in society are way too uptight about these sorts of things.
Hmmm interesting question. Not sure how I'd react if it was my girlfriend - to be honest as long as our relationship was solid and strong with mutual trust - it wouldn't really bother me. Didn't bother me at all back in the day when I saw guys checking out my ex in a bikini. Different if they stepped over the line, but just looking - go nuts.
Conversely look at it from her point. People yelling 'it's objectification' and 'she's being taken advantage of because of her assets.' It may not be what some of the 'ordinary' people (am I going to cop it for saying that?
) want to hear - but people often don't mind the attention and being checked out by the opposite sex. Following on from my post above - it doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I've been proud and happy to update my wardrobe with better fitting (aka tighter) clothes since I've buffed down.Heck, we all want to look attractive to those around us. Even the girls who don't have a job as a model. If you didn't care what strangers, or your partner, or your friends, or potential future partners think - then why do you put makeup on every day? Just for yourself and that 5 mins a day you may see yourself in the mirror? Or because you like to look good. Why bother putting on a pretty dress or some hot jeans? You could just wear a comfortable, baggy, velvet tracksuit every day of your life.
I understand your point Steve about your girlfriend. That makes sense. It's nice to be with an attractive partner & boosts the ego if others desire, but cannot have, your partner. I think most people would admit to this.
However, my question was how men would feel if it was their daughter/sister/mother?
With regard to your last paragraph, I think I must be a bit 'wrong'/stupid in some peoples' eyes...I really do believe beauty is on the inside. I pretty much dress in trackies every day, don't ever wear makeup and only wore a dress to my partner's Gran's 90th a few weeks ago out of respect for her...before that, the last time I wore a dress was perhaps 2 yrs ago.
I understand that unfortunately, looks count in our society.
However, getting back to the OP, if I want to look at porn, I will go to a porn site. I don't really want to see it on a real estate site where I have chosen to look at property not peoples' bodies. I don't want it flung down my throat at every opportunity, on billboards, on bus shelters, on buses, on every 2nd page of a magazine etc. It's this lack of choice I object to, not peoples' nakedness.
So the question remains, how would you feel if it were your daughter?
However, my question was how men would feel if it was their daughter/sister/mother?
With regard to your last paragraph, I think I must be a bit 'wrong'/stupid in some peoples' eyes...I really do believe beauty is on the inside. I pretty much dress in trackies every day, don't ever wear makeup and only wore a dress to my partner's Gran's 90th a few weeks ago out of respect for her...before that, the last time I wore a dress was perhaps 2 yrs ago.
I understand that unfortunately, looks count in our society.
However, getting back to the OP, if I want to look at porn, I will go to a porn site. I don't really want to see it on a real estate site where I have chosen to look at property not peoples' bodies. I don't want it flung down my throat at every opportunity, on billboards, on bus shelters, on buses, on every 2nd page of a magazine etc. It's this lack of choice I object to, not peoples' nakedness.
So the question remains, how would you feel if it were your daughter?
It's a bit of a loaded question. No father ever wants to see a guy look at his daughter sexually. Be it on a billboard or picking her up for her highschool formal. As a guy, he knows how they think, and how he thought - and probably still does about women his own age. I doubt you'd find many that would be happy about such a career move, though many would come to accept it. But the same guy who doesn't want his daughter looked at, will oggle the next billboard he passes.
As far as how you dress Mary - yes there will always be thousands of people who don't care. But the vast majority do care, hence the hundreds of billions spent with companies like L'Oreal, Revlon, P&G etc not to even look at the clothing side of the equation.
On your third point, you're missing the point a bit. The whole idea was it was an unusual, headline grabbing advert that drew attention to what they were trying to market. If small kittens rated as well in advertising, then you would have seen a video of an apartment full of kittens in every room. Advertising is giving the public what they want, or what you think they need. If the ad without the girl receives 200 hits and the ad with the girl received 5,000 - chances are a few of those extra people may be actual buyers. If an ad with a guy dressed up in a green monster outfit was predicted to receive 10,000 hits - then the girl wouldn't have got the job.
More so in the case of everyday items we see on TV, billboards etc. Advertisers trying to sell their male audience a product need to get their attention - a good way to do that is have a hot chick in the ad due to the nature of men above. If you want to change the make of man's brain chemistry, good luck, but it's not going to happen en mass any decade soon.
Great post Steve. You make valid points.
I completely agree with you, except on the kittens...I'd love that!
I don't think it's possible to change a man's brain chemistry. I do think it's possible to change society's views on women though. It's just a shame it's not happening faster. Teaching girls to respect themselves for being more than just a body should really be emphaised more in society. And the males intheir lives can teach and support them in that.
It's fine for men & women to look at porn. But put it in context, on a porn site. I think it's just slipped way too much into mainstream media so that we now all don't bat an eyelid much anymore seeing nakedness & sexual acts.
I think having respect for & enjoying our bodies and sharing them with mutually consenting adults is fine. I just think too many young girls are taught that to be valuable in today's society, they must behave like Kim Kardashian or Rhiannan (is that her name?) or Katie Price & that they must behave a certain way to please a male.
In saying this, I realise not all males want a bimbo; the body yes, but it's nice to have conversation about something other than makeup or cosmetic surgery sometimes too!
Sex sells & it's a real pity too. Personally, I prefer a humerous ad to one with a sexy bloke in it. But then I preferred a sense of humour in my blokes to a toned torso. To me, funny is sexy, smart is also sexy (mmm, Derryn Hinch). Body sexiness wears thin if the person is just not nice!
Maybe, on the bright side, the girl in the ad is using the money to finish her Phd
I completely agree with you, except on the kittens...I'd love that!
I don't think it's possible to change a man's brain chemistry. I do think it's possible to change society's views on women though. It's just a shame it's not happening faster. Teaching girls to respect themselves for being more than just a body should really be emphaised more in society. And the males intheir lives can teach and support them in that.
It's fine for men & women to look at porn. But put it in context, on a porn site. I think it's just slipped way too much into mainstream media so that we now all don't bat an eyelid much anymore seeing nakedness & sexual acts.
I think having respect for & enjoying our bodies and sharing them with mutually consenting adults is fine. I just think too many young girls are taught that to be valuable in today's society, they must behave like Kim Kardashian or Rhiannan (is that her name?) or Katie Price & that they must behave a certain way to please a male.
In saying this, I realise not all males want a bimbo; the body yes, but it's nice to have conversation about something other than makeup or cosmetic surgery sometimes too!
Sex sells & it's a real pity too. Personally, I prefer a humerous ad to one with a sexy bloke in it. But then I preferred a sense of humour in my blokes to a toned torso. To me, funny is sexy, smart is also sexy (mmm, Derryn Hinch). Body sexiness wears thin if the person is just not nice!
Maybe, on the bright side, the girl in the ad is using the money to finish her Phd
Nice one Biggles. Here's a tough one for you - name 3 movies Matthew McConaughey has starred in where he hasn't taken his top off. Apparently it's harder than you think.
Why would I watch one where he doesn't take his top off?
