impact of stockmarket crash on property prices

The physical element means nothing to me. I have bought sight unseen and rarely go to look at my properties.

from time to time i even forget that i own a few of them - the properties are only dollar amounts in the bank account. rent in, mortgage out.

even tho all my property is within and hour's drive, i haven't seen some of them for years ... but i do make sure my rents are up to market, and am aware of the equity growth should i ever need it.

even tho property is physical, it is still a numbers game.
 
Do you mean confirmation bias?
Yes I did, my mistake. Didn't feel right even as I wrote it, but the intent is the same.

One of the problems of defining a shortage is that demand/supply can be affected by either of the 2 moving. I think that dwellings constructed vs long term population trends, number of empty bedrooms etc shows no fundamental undersupply, but there definitely is an undersupply compared to current DEMAND (which is basically as much as credit allows people to buy)
And this point is where you and I disagree I think. Not the point about demand and supply itself, but about the current state of the market.

The lack of development in recent years, running at around 140,000 new dwellings compared to the underlying increase in demand for new dwellings of around 160,000 suggests a growing shortage of housing stock. Couple this with low vacancies, this suggests we have a real dwelling shortage that is only going to get worse until yields improve to the point where developers start building again in volumes above underlying demand. I work in the manufacturing industry and we track the actual housing starts versus underlying demand very carefully and I can ensure you that housing starts are well below demand for housing.

I expect rents to keep rising probably a little bit over wages, but prices to fall as lending standards return and bad debt explodes.
I agree that rents will continue to rise, as the current extreme rental vacancy crisis will have no choice but to push rents up. The rental vacancy rate is independent of housing starts being below underlying demand, although that is a factor. Rental vacancies is tied to Investor demand which is lagging well beyond owner occupier demand. As such there is insufficient rental stock for the rental demand to be satisfied. It will take a significant improvement in investor sentiment for the rental vacancy crisis to abate.

I disagree that prices will fall. The fact that underlying supply of new stock lags underlying growth in demand means prices will hold or grow over the coming years. Should there be a global recession or similar due to a global credit squeeze or erosion of US consumer sentiment, then obviously this could impact demand to the point that prices might fall or stagnate. But the current demand/supply equation supports ongoing price appreciation.

Rents are up but in the last few years repayments of interest (from 6->8.5%) have increased faster than rents.
That's right, which is why yields have dropped to the point that investors have abandoned the market. Until yields improve investors will stay away and the vacancy rate will worsen. This obviously will force rents up as renters fight over the diminished available rental stock. Eventually this will improve yields to the point that investors will return to the market which will increase house prices, which in turn will increase demand to buy, which in turn will increase house supply by developers once more. Its a simple cycle that will play out as it has done for decades.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Normally, decreasing supply will result in higher prices. Looking at the rental situation, it would appear that we are undersupplied in terms of dwellings.

However, in the case of property, does this necessarily mean prices will go up? My opinion is not necessarily, because:

1) there is an alternative to buying (that is, renting) which alleviates the extra demand and

2) the price people can pay is very much tied to the job market and how much the banks are willing to lend

If banks cut down on lending, it will limit what people can offer (especially compared to previously when banks were more willing to lend). i.e. if previously prices were driven by a combination of high demand, low supply AND bank willingness to lend, those prices can still fall because bank lending is such a big part of property deals. Buyers won't offer as much if banks lend them less money on the same salary.

Two things can happen: sellers stand pat, in which case you just have a dead market with fewer transactions, or sellers decide to meet the price and prices fall.

The question will be whether a recession hits. If it does, then sellers will come to the party.

What, then, of the rental market? If the buyers market is stagnant, they still have to live somewhere so rents will go up.

In short, property prices are a wildcard but rents are pretty much certain to go up. Makes sense since rents have been so low for the last couple of years.
Alex
 
The question will be whether a recession hits. If it does, then sellers will come to the party.
I think sometimes we look at the big picture too much.

I think the resource boom will limit the economies ability to enter recession. The consumer part of the economy will suffer there are lots of max'd out credit cards out there now. Consumer wise it feels like the late 90's.

With property we get suburbs that continue to grow even though other suburbs drop or stagnate.

So I think we need to look at the micro picture a bit more often and not get so worked up about the macro economic picture.

The press has a large part to play in the actions of the masses, if we get news of a recession that will change how people perceive their world and it may change spending habits.

I guess it's a bit like technical analysis you look at the perceptions of the masses and not so much at the fundamentals.

Anyway food prices have gone up a lot, petrol has gone up a lot, interest rates have almost doubled, electronic devices have become cheaper, imports from asia have become cheaper. The last two factors and the resource exports have kept the number crunchers in Canberra happy.

Whether or not a recession is called the average mortgage belt Aussie will be feeling the pinch for a few more years to come. I don't think they are going to stop sending it may slow down more but once the banks advertise equity loans again ( once house prices go up ) the spending will become worse (more spending).

my 2c
cheers
quoll
 
The US just released a report that stated 4,000 jobs were lost in August instead of the expected 110,000 job increase... We are witnessing In my Opinion the begining of a 87 style Crash again... Chances are the Federal Reserve bank will cut rates but is this necessarily a good thing? The last time the Federal Reserve bank cut rates the Stock market entered a 2 year downtrend... these's years were 2001 to 2003... I don't want to be Chicken little but it is scary stuff to look at...

Here's an interesting graph of the DOW Jones today in the pink and in 87 in the black... Very similar formation isn't it... Basically if the DOW falls below 13000 points we are all screwed and it is US recession time...

Legend also says that all crashes have happened in the month of October...

Just be careful... Remember its just my opinion so make up your own mind... :D
 

Attachments

  • image0022.JPG
    image0022.JPG
    56.1 KB · Views: 64
Basically if the DOW falls below 13000 points we are all screwed
:D

I don't know about that, I personally have taken all measures I could to
stop it from affecting me and I am also ready to buy BHP and RIO stocks at a better price.

Let me see... is $20 a good price to buy BHP??..:rolleyes:

Cheers
 
Formations look nothing like each other, and the comparison means nothing in my opinion. On how many occasions have there been an upward trend, like the pink 2007 one, which instead of falling kept on going up? Probably an aweful lot more than when it fell like in '87. Not saying that it can't/won't fall, but that the chart comparison is useless.

The US just released a report that stated 4,000 jobs were lost in August instead of the expected 110,000 job increase... We are witnessing In my Opinion the begining of a 87 style Crash again... Chances are the Federal Reserve bank will cut rates but is this necessarily a good thing? The last time the Federal Reserve bank cut rates the Stock market entered a 2 year downtrend... these's years were 2001 to 2003... I don't want to be Chicken little but it is scary stuff to look at...

Here's an interesting graph of the DOW Jones today in the pink and in 87 in the black... Very similar formation isn't it... Basically if the DOW falls below 13000 points we are all screwed and it is US recession time...

Legend also says that all crashes have happened in the month of October...

Just be careful... Remember its just my opinion so make up your own mind... :D
 
I was doing a bit of work today on a little unit I have located on Balmoral Slopes Mosman in Sydney. The unit is in a small block of twelve built back in the early sixties. I noticed that a lot of the older unit blocks in that area are either being seriously renovated or torn down to make way for bigger better developments. My unit's block is in a prime location on Moruben road. As I sat and ate my lunch while gazing out from my balcony at the 180 degree veiw of the three heads and the entrance to Sydney harbour I had these musings.

I don't know whether anyone has noticed but the world population is still growing and the developing countries are still developing and we are living on a planet where realestate in well located areas is still and always going to be worth more as the demand increases and supply falls.
I think folks can get pretty hung up on cycles and stats and although they are helpful in telling us what has happened to the herd, hold very little value to the person who recognises opportunity in any market through due dillegence and recognition of good value when they see it.
Simon

And this comment, my friends, is one of the most beautiful pieces of clear and focused thinking I have ever heard.

Thank you simonjulie.

Regards

Glenn
 
Formations look nothing like each other, and the comparison means nothing in my opinion. On how many occasions have there been an upward trend, like the pink 2007 one, which instead of falling kept on going up? Probably an aweful lot more than when it fell like in '87. Not saying that it can't/won't fall, but that the chart comparison is useless.

I tried to find another chart that may change your mind on the formations but I couldn't find it... I'm not trying to just use charts alone to put my view foward... It is a fact that todays average investor is 300% in Debt which is an all time high and it is twice as much as the second highest debt recorded in 1929... Cutting the interest rate is only a short term bandaid but it is like admitting the economy has a problem...

Long Story Short... Prepare for the worst and hope for the best :D

I hope I'm wrong because I don't make money in bear markets
 
Long Story Short... Prepare for the worst and hope for the best :D

dfer,
Are you expecting to make money from falling stocks or from falling property prices?
I have a strong suspicion that if what you are saying does happen, interest rates will fall
and you know what this will do to property prices??
Cheers
 
dfer,
I have a strong suspicion that if what you are saying does happen, interest rates will fall
and you know what this will do to property prices??

Interest rates falling makes money cheaper to borrow, which encourages people to borrow *IF THEY CAN*.

Many people are at their maximum borrowing capacity, in fact quite a few Australian banks at the moment can't find anyone willing to accept their debts and are having to use emergency measures and change the laws of the reserve bank so they don't have massive liquidity problems.

This can only work temporarily. I'm thinking we'll see rises above the RBA cash rate because nobody trusts that other people don't have junk in their debt books. Who would keep funding the dodgy debt of people like Rams? They take their dodgy debt to markets and everyone says get stuffed so they run back to their accounting rooms and reassure each other their finances are sound it's just the market was wrong and everything's really ok.

So first of all, Australia doesn't have enough domestic savings to cover all of our debt - so we have to borrow internationally. That will dry up with crap interest rates, or our dollar will plunge should the RBA do something too dodgy.

Even if we could reduce interest rates, they can go as low as they like, but nobody is going to keep loading up on debt when they're already in over their heads servicing it on depreciating assets.

For evidence, see Japan over the last 15 years which has seen declining property prices with 0% interest rates.
 
Even if we could reduce interest rates, they can go as low as they like, but nobody is going to keep loading up on debt when they're already in over their heads servicing it on depreciating assets.

For evidence, see Japan over the last 15 years which has seen declining property prices with 0% interest rates.

You know, every time I read one of you're post's it's always the same.

Do you just do a cut and paste on the "depreciating assets and look at Japan" bit, or do you type it out every time?

Dave
 

Attachments

  • 2ish1mx.jpg
    2ish1mx.jpg
    12.5 KB · Views: 55
Last edited:
If HG has read anything about the Japanese bust (or understands anything about Japanese mindset), he would understand that it's unlikely we'll have the same sort of bust. Just quoting one-liners about how Japan has been in recession for 15 years (true) doesn't mean it'll happen in Australia or the US. Japan's bust is evidence of what can happen if you use a certain type of economic policy in response to an asset bubble. It does NOT mean Australia or the US will use the same economic policy. In fact history has shown that they use different policies.

Not just because Japan was a much bigger boom both relative to everyone else and in absolute terms (in the late 80s, when in fact Japan was already peaking, you had those wild ideas like the Nomura president saying the US should cede California to Japan and a bit of land under the palace in Tokyo was as valuable as New York or something), but because of the Japanese govt's response.

The Japanese govt simply didn't let businesses and banks fail even though they were insolvent. They just kept ramping up govt debt and lent it to banks to prop up failing businesses (Japan's govt debt is one of the highest in the developed world relative to their GDP). They also stimulated the economy with useless (but politically valuable, given Japan's concentration of political power in the countryside, the traditional support base of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party) pork barrel projects in the form of infrastructure that didn't do anything (beautiful bridges and roads in the countryside, hardly used).

The Western approach is different. Low interest rates is just the start. America and Australia are willing to let businesses fail, take some short term pain in terms of high unemployment and bankruptcies and social turmoil, weed out the excesses from the boom and reallocate resources to productive (new) businesses.

Japan didn't do that, so ended up with a decade of recessions with probably the lowest unemployment ever seen. Companies didn't lay people off: they just gave them less and less work. Many become 'window' positions (literally, they sat by the window and looked out all day).

But because everyone knew businesses were insolvent and were only alive from govt support, consumers cut their spending drastically waiting for the other shoe to drop. There was practically no creation of new businesses: all the old plodding companies (called zombie companies) just sat there with lots of useless staff. Japan does not have the entrepreneur culture that the US has.

What they should have done was allow businesses to go bust, lay off staff, write off bank loans with govt bailouts, and then the banks would be free to lend to new businesses and there would be plenty of cheap (unemployed) labour to go into those new businesses. There were political and cultural reasons why the Japanese did what they did (just as why they restrict, for example, practically all rice imports into the country even though doing so would lower prices to consumers), but it didn't work. The economy just sat in a holding pattern for 10 years while other countries took advantage of the low rates to do carry trades.

On the other hand, looking at the S&L crisis in the US or Australia in the early 90s, the govts LET businesses fail, used govt money to bail out some banks, but then let the 'creative destruction' process that is central to modern capitalism proceed. Doing that means a deeper recession in the short term, but the economy then emerges with a hungry and unemployed labour pool and banks with the capacity to lend. Combine that with an entrepreneurial culture, and you have the makings of a new boom (ask why the internet boom happened in Silicon Valley as opposed to Japan or Korea, or why many of the financial innovations such as mortgage backed bonds were made in the US even though in the late 80s the Japanese were supposed to be the masters of zaitech, or money manipulation).

The interesting question is whether China will allow creative destruction in light of it's political situation. But really, China is still just the world's factory. Rising costs is already driving low cost production to Vietnam, etc. If China tanks, it's not as bad as the US tanking. Our resource prices are going to take a hit, though.

Given the success of the response to the S&L crisis and (arguably) the 2001 recession, why the heck would Bernanke suddenly change course and say 'heck, let's try what the Japanese did in 1990'? Because it worked so well? Bernanke is a smart man. At the very least he's not going to try something that obviously failed.
Alex
 
For evidence, see Japan over the last 15 years which has seen declining property prices with 0% interest rates.

HiredGoon

The 2 markets are not the same mate.
The rental markets are different, the tax system is different and we live in different times too.

We also have a big immigration program so our population is rising.
So where is the comparison?

Additionally, if interest rates drop, the yields will increase making IP'S in many areas +ve geared.
I personally can't wait for Interest Rates to fall....:D

Cheers
 
Culturally, Japan has NEVER had an investor culture. They're workers, dependent on defined benefit pensions, identify themselves as companymen first and live and die with their companies. I have a friend in his 20s, an elite salaryman from Tokyo University, who really had a moral crisis over whether to quit his job with a Japanese company and take a job with a foreign company where he thought he would do better and enjoy it more. I said 'it's great you're thinking about your company, mate, but shouldn't you also think about yourself and your wife?' Bushido is still alive and well.

That's partly one reason why the govt simply didn't let businesses fail: the social impact would have been too great. I hardly think Australians (or Americans) are that tied to their jobs.

Snappy one-liners like 'Japan has been falling for 15 years' is about as useless as 'property always goes up'. It simplifies a complex situation to the point where the comment is misleading.

For example, I would say 'property always goes up over the long term (>one cycle) for capital city property where population and the economy are both growing'. Obviously that wouldn't be snappy and short enough to make a political point.
Alex
 
Last edited:
I never said Australia will end up like Japan, I agree, we are different than them.

The single example I used Japan for is that a cut in interest rates does not lead to a boom in house prices when they are already high and people are loaded up with debt.

You can cut interest rates to 0% and if assets are going down and people are too debt laden it does no good at all. Even though it's cheap nobody's going to borrow.

You know, every time I read one of you're post's it's always the same.

Do you just do a cut and paste on the "depreciating assets and look at Japan" bit, or do you type it out every time?

I have mentioned Japan 3 times in my 146 posts to Somersoft. One of them was just then. So 2 times other than this post. Don't like that example, huh?
 
Last edited:
I am also ready to buy BHP and RIO stocks at a better price.

Let me see... is $20 a good price to buy BHP??..:rolleyes:

BHP paid out 50c franked at 30% last year.

$40 a share = 1.25% dividends
$20 a share = 2.5% dividends

BHP shares are trading as if someone expects another 5 Chinas to appear in the pacific next year. Forgive me for passing on them.
 
Oh my goodness. :eek: BHP's dividends might be smallish, but have you looked at there earnings per share? They have the capacity to pay much higher dividends if they wish.........
 
I have been watching BHP. I doubt you will get them for $20 tho. A more easily attainable price would be less than $31. Instead of paying big dividends, BHP has been buying back it's own shares. You figure it out.:)
 
Back
Top