investment properties

gigigoodyear said:
I would also like to let people know that many coal miners in China suffer from black lung disease. They are not supplied with protective equipment when they mine. Since they are paid a pittance they do not receive adequate medical care anymore. The Central govt has decentralised health care and now all medical services are fee based.

Are you still willing to invest in coal mines in China?

Re hotel investments in China...they also double up as sex worker hotels. I can't tell you how many times I have been woken up by the telephone at 3am in the morning with a sex worker at the other end of the line. But by all means invest, it should be profitable from this perspective.

Not that I'm agreeing with Grossreal on investing in China: I don't trust the government and I think there are lots of hidden problems like corruption, bad loans, etc which makes it a risky market to invest in.

However, all this about not investing because mine conditions are bad and there are prostitutes in the hotels, etc are moral reasons not to invest. They're not financial reasons not to invest. If you base your investment decisions on moral reasons then it has nothing to do with whether a market is in a bubble or not, has growth prospects or not. IMHO you can't use moral reasons to argue against the financial gains from an investment.
Alex
 
social responsibility

Alex - don't be so naive.

You will find that economics and social responsibility are interlinked. Look at the Nike debacle in Indonesia when Americans found out about the low wages and poor working conditions of the workers. Consequence - bad publicity and a plummeting share price. Nike had to hot foot their PR pronto.

Companies auditing other companies on their social responsibilities is a hot growth area in the corporate world. Consultants who specialise in this field are setting up shop in China. There are a growing number of shareholders who will not invest in companies which are unenvironmentally unfriendly, have poor and dangerous working conditions for their workers, employ child workers etc. It is an area not to be dismissed lightly.
 
Fair enough, but the fact is cigarette, mining, oil, chocolate, coffee companies, etc that are associated with human rights violations can still make good investments. Just the fact that a company is involved in immoral practices is not reason enough not to invest in it.
Alex
 
investing in slavery

alexlee said:
Fair enough, but the fact is cigarette, mining, oil, chocolate, coffee companies, etc that are associated with human rights violations can still make good investments. Just the fact that a company is involved in immoral practices is not reason enough not to invest in it.
Alex

You mean you would put your money where your mouth is and agree to invest in slavery and slave like conditions? Shame, shame, shame on you! What goes around comes around.

Look at cigarette companies in industrialised countries - the world was their oyster and they had great profits one day and the next - no smoking in the workplace, bars, restaurants and public areas, high taxation, lawsuits, more people quitting smoking etc. Eventually, these companies will go to the dogs. Not a profitable investment in the long-term. In addition to the green eyed monster, why not invest in something that also makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside? :D
 
gigigoodyear said:
You mean you would put your money where your mouth is and agree to invest in slavery and slave like conditions? Shame, shame, shame on you! What goes around comes around.

Look at cigarette companies in industrialised countries - the world was their oyster and they had great profits one day and the next - no smoking in the workplace, bars, restaurants and public areas, high taxation, lawsuits, more people quitting smoking etc. Eventually, these companies will go to the dogs. Not a profitable investment in the long-term. In addition to the green eyed monster, why not invest in something that also makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside? :D

You have your morals, I have mine. Shame doesn't work since I respect other people's opinions but am not influenced by other people's morals. I do what my own morals will allow.

I have no issues buying cheap t-shirts made in who knows where, too. Altria (Phillip Morris) shares seems to have done ok over the last few years. As have defence, gambling and alcohol shares. Next time there's a war I know what I'm buying. Expecting those companies to go to the dogs in the future is wishful thinking: human nature being what it is, there'll always be demand for stimulants, booze, weapons, gambling and there'll always be places in the world where people are exploited.

Greedy? Of course. I invest for profit. If I want to feel warm and fuzzy I'll donate to charity.
Alex
 
gigigoodyear said:
If they introduced a law which made shareholders also liable for the company's actions would you think differently?

I would act differently: my morals wouldn't change. That'd be a legal issue for me, not a moral one. It'd be the same as, say, they changed the tax laws so that I can no longer claim travel expenses to my IPs. I'd stop claiming it on my tax return because it's the law, but I would still think I'm morally entitled to claim them.

I wonder if US company officers are acting any differently even with Sarbanes Oxley in place.
Alex
 
gigigoodyear said:
I would also like to let people know that many coal miners in China suffer from black lung disease. They are not supplied with protective equipment when they mine. Since they are paid a pittance they do not receive adequate medical care anymore. The Central govt has decentralised health care and now all medical services are fee based.

Are you still willing to invest in coal mines in China?

Re hotel investments in China...they also double up as sex worker hotels. I can't tell you how many times I have been woken up by the telephone at 3am in the morning with a sex worker at the other end of the line. But by all means invest, it should be profitable from this perspective.
Gigigoodyear,

You seem to have a lot of well researched criticisms. Can you suggest some alternatives for people wishing to invest in Asia, if you aren't happy with the ones proposed?

Why not be part of the solution?

Jamie.
 
chinese investments

Some ideas for investments in China:

1. Look at the morbidity and mortality health statistics in China and there you will find a whole sector to invest in. There are already Chinese traditional medicine and Western medical clinics treating Hep B symptoms (60% of pop infected, 10% are active carriers) but there is more room for competition. I also think that in 20 years time lung cancer among men will be big problem, about 90% of Chinese men are smokers. Sexually transmitted infections (a biggie!!!). Some barriers to entry are mainly government regulations and hospitals who have to survive by charging these patients and may not want to see more competition. But then again, private clinics are doing very well treating these patients. I met one or two Chinese millionaires operating these private clinics. And so on....

2. Aged care. Think of all those single children (with no brothers or sisters) trying to care for their parents while they have to go out and earn a living. If you read some of the Chinese newspapers and watch the tv, it is beginning to emerge as a problem as some of these spoilt rotten little emperors when they grow up do not want to take care of their aging parents. A big cultural no no.

3. Western style supermarkets. Walmart and Carrefour are packed out in the big cities in the East Coast and also in Yunnan when I last visited. Imagine wall to wall people jamming up the aisles seven days a week. I believe one of the few foreign companies making big bucks in China. Where's Woolies and Coles????

4. Matchmaking services - loads of lonely single Chinese out there looking for love.

5. High speed internet games in real time with players from around the world. Go to any internet cafe and millions of young male Chinese are playing role playing games, action games etc. in the small network of the Internet cafe. Imagine if they could play with the rest of the world at a reasonable price.

6. Travel - visit any tourist site in China and it is packed wall to wall with people. As they earn more money and are able to afford that private passport which allows them to travel freely outside of China then get ready for a tidal wave of Chinese visiting tourist destinations around the world.

7. Food - anything that has garlic or chilli, packaged into small snack packs, and can also compete in price with local items. Also can be sold in bulk containers to the millions of outdoor food markets around China where most of the local people shop and affordable in small quantities. I can already think of something already which Australia can export easily and readily enough which people still have not thought of despite having Austrade offices in China!!!!

8. Clean water. Water from Chinese faucets have heavy metals and other substances in it. Millions of Chinese people use this water to boil their tea with. Sell them better water filtration systems to make their tea taste better. Also market it as being better for their health.

Loads of investment opportunities besides mining and property. This is just what I can think of at the top of my head.

Below is an article about multi-national companies in China for your information:

-------------------------------------
China market, multinationals' paradise?
(China Business Weekly)
Updated: 2006-02-20 08:24


It is true that Chinese consumers are spoilt for choice as competition for their attention continues to intensify.

The figures certainly support this assertion. Shampoo sales were more than 20 billion yuan (US$2.5 billion) last year, up from less than 10 million yuan (US$1.25 million) at the end of the 1980s. For the numerically-minded, that's 2,000 times in a matter of about two decades.

Companies selling the stuff should be jumping for joy, but the sobering truth bringing them down to earth is that there were only five or six brands in the 1980s, whereas now there are nearly 3,000.

Some more numbers: Over the same period, the number of toothpaste brands rose from 100 to almost 800. Fruit juice makers were unknown two decades ago, now there are more than 160. More than 100 car models were launched in 2004, double from only two years before.

"China's market is not just big, it is also increasingly crowded. For foreign companies, making money here demands more effort," says Alan Horton, an analyst at US-based Summit Consulting Co.

He won't say it but it is clear that sheer brand power will not carry the day, or the cash register, any more. It is not just a gentleman's contest among themselves, but also against aggressive domestic competitors.

"This is a new strategic challenge for multinationals. The emergence of strong local companies is creating a formidable challenge," he says.

Competition, which in many markets was almost non-existent in the 1980s and 1990s, is becoming intense, agrees Wang Zhile of the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Co-operation. Wang is an expert on multinationals in China.

It's tough out there. Big multinationals, smaller firms from Europe and the United States, ambitious companies from the rest of the Asia and domestic players all want a slice of the market.

The challenge from domestic companies is particularly intense, Wang observes.

Domestic companies have grown in confidence and have improved the quality of their products, helping them move into the middle and even upper segments, he says. "This has been a painful development for multinationals."

Foreign firms have been forced to move in the other direction, cutting prices in an attempt to hang onto market share, but losing profitability in the process.

For instance, domestic companies' forays into flat panel TV production has meant profit margins have plunged for the likes of Sony and Matsushita, which have been forced into price cutting.

Procter & Gamble (P&G) and Unilever are well entrenched in China, but their early dominance of some markets has been whittled down by domestic competition. According to Euromonitor, a global market research company, the domestic Diao brand now dominates China's detergent market, with a share of almost 25 per cent. Unilever's Omo is in third place, with a share of just 10 per cent.

"Margins were very high till 2003 but there have been several price reductions since then, and there will continue to be additional reductions as consumers have more choices and as more competitors come to the market," says Troy Clarke, head of GM's Asia-Pacific division.

"With competition coming in with even cheaper, better products, those that can't come up with new strategies could be in trouble," Wang says.

Going local

So how do multinationals cope? Going Chinese seems to be the direction chosen by most, either by cutting costs or by developing more locally popular products.

"You can't survive in China without becoming a Chinese company. That includes local technology development, product design, procurement, manufacturing and sales," says Yun Jong-Yong, chief executive of Samsung Electronics, the most profitable technology company in the world.

If Samsung tries to sell products developed in South Korea, it could fail because the same products can be developed in China much more cheaply, Yun says.

Until 2004, the company did almost all product development and design at home and used China only for manufacturing.

"Gradually we are transferring development and design functions to China up to a certain level. We now also use Chinese parts," he says.

Gary Coleman, global managing director of Manufacturing Industry Practice with Deloitte, says multinationals should not use traditional ways to grow profitably in emerging markets like China, despite their strong international management experience.

"Emerging markets around the world offer significant growth potential, but the most successful and profitable companies will be those that really understand their customers and take a different approach," he says.

"Companies will need to acquire a new set of competencies and organizational structures to generate a continuing stream of innovative products tailored to the needs of consumers and industrial buyers in emerging markets."

He says multinationals now need to look at developing tailored product offerings for the local market, building local research and development (R&D) capabilities, integrating local supply chains onto the global level, and maintaining margins.

It is also important to acquire deeper customer knowledge and find the best talent, he adds.

Some multinationals have rised to the challenge of slimmer profits in China, but that is only the beginning, because they will need more strategic planning and deeper reforms, says Xu Deyin, a professor with Guanghua School of Management, Peking University.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution, and different companies need a different mix of strategies, he says.

Companies such as Siemens, P&G and UPS have stopped working with their Chinese partners and have become wholly foreign funded companies, as wholly owned ventures are, on average, more profitable than alliances, Xu says.

Many international giants are restructuring their operations and promoting internal reforms.

They aim to apply a common strategy by setting a single goal, a single plan and a single brand. The most apparent benefit is in financial flow, Xu says, adding a unified financial system could help shave a third off overall costs for multinationals in China.

But cutting costs is only part of the equation. Since many foreign corporations may never be able to reach cost parity with their Chinese rivals, they will have to think of other ways to create value, Xu says, adding that the most common approach is to rethink their distribution systems and have more R&D facilities locally.

Profit margins

But generally speaking, the profit margins of foreign companies are better than domestic companies, says the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Co-operation's Wang.

According to the Beijing Statistics Bureau, profits of foreign companies were eight times that of local companies in 2004.

Exactly how much profit multinationals make in China is not an easy question to answer, however. Hard data on profitability is usually difficult to come by, partly, observers say, because enterprises tend to understate the amount of money they make in order to avoid taxation.

Some multinationals also lower their stated profits to have an impact on Chinese companies and erode the time cushion that domestic firms would need on a more gradual, organic path to expansion.

It is true that foreign companies face a future of slimmer profit margins as their numbers multiply and competition becomes tougher, says American Chamber of Commerce President Charles Martin.

A survey of AmCham member companies last year suggested that about 30 per cent were seeing better profits in China than in the world as a whole, down from 40 per cent in previous years.

"China is acting more like a normal competitive market and we would expect that to continue to happen over the coming years," he says.

However, the biggest profit source for foreign companies in China is often overlooked because it is difficult to record, says Wang. The financial gains generated by cheap sourcing in China are impossible to document because they show up in the profits of multinationals in their traditional markets in the United States and Europe.

The export businesses of foreign firms similarly often show little or no profit. This is less a reflection of reality than of transfer pricing as foreign firms attempt to avoid capital controls and taxes in China. For instance, Wal-Mart buys more than US$12 billion worth of goods in China every year - and more than 50 per cent of China's total exports are produced in foreign-invested factories.
 
hi gigigoodyear
interest post I have as you can understand done alot of work on this project and I also see that the shopping market malls are a big market,
and would I like to see thousands of people going down each Isle
well for me yes
as that is what a mall is supposed to do
it' is designed to draw in as many people to a confined space and sell product to them.
it's is all well and good to have an idea and I'm all for idea's as they are the most important item for an investor but an idea must also be sellable otherwise it not an idea its a dream.
the main part or problem with investing in china is not the number of opportunities its the security of your moneys while gaining access to those opportunities.
I and my group have decided on this route as we see it as for us the safest path and give me these oppertunities
can you tell me how you can
A get your money in to invest
B get your money out after investing.
C get your profit out of the country
D minimis possible loss by people with there hands out to get access to your money.
E get the loans required to invests in any of the projects you have posted.

To do a deal you must have a few things in any business
1. an idea.
2. cash flow to start and sustain that idea or product, and loans, cash or cash flow to see the project thru to the end.
3. a customer to sell that product or item to.
4. an excite stratigy for any problems that may occur.
5. a reinvestment stratigy to move the product or item forward to the next level
I have two level with regard to investing yes or no and morals don't come into either level I invest in what I feel comfortable in and that takes in alot of different medium.
you are right china is changing and over the next 10 to 15 years is going to go thru huge changes,changes that for me I have never seen before in the world and hope it doesn't happen but I can see it will.
with china one child policy and india similar with there male dominated families, we will for the first time since the romans
find that there will be a huge unbalance between male and female in not countries but continents, couple to that the fact that these are very fast moving markets thats a huge social problem for both.
one bedroom units start buying in these markets as its abit hard to have a family without a wife.
but thats another story and the roosters will come home to roost similar to our baby boomers just on the size of a two generations.
I like solution so if you can give me idea's and I am always open for them.
on not what to invest IN in china but how?
 
alexlee said:
Fair enough, but the fact is cigarette, mining, oil, chocolate, coffee companies, etc that are associated with human rights violations can still make good investments. Just the fact that a company is involved in immoral practices is not reason enough not to invest in it.
Alex


According to the English philosopher Edmund Burke ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

To invest in companies that you know to practice unethical practices , is condoing it . Where else do they get the money to continue ?

Alexlee , are you a good person , or just a moral vacuum :confused:

See Change
 
hi sea change
you can also use the
give a man a fish and he can eat for a day
give a man a rod and teach him to fish and he can eat for weeks.
the idea is not a moral vaccum the way to change is thru education and training
if you educate the masses and you train the middle class
then the chances of these companies being found out is increased.
and you quote is correct but to look at it from a different view by not investing in a under developed market, you are the one doing nothing and by doing so you are allowing evil or groups that have that agenda to prosper.
example if the same level of funding that went into japan was given to africa then the tutsi's would be a very happy little community but its not at the moment.
I don't generally use these quotes because there is always two side to a coin.
anyones morals is subjective to them and if you sat mother teresa, the late pope, adolf and a hari chrishna in a room they would all have a very different view of morals.

where do they get money from superfunds not mums and dads.
 
Gross real

I agree with what you say . Change is needed and by ignoring it and not engaging with countries like China the problem is not going to go away.

My comment was purely aimed at Alexlee, who is an educated , well off , intelligent person who seems to think that their actions have no impact further down the food chain. He / She seems to think that there is no place for morals in investing. That is what annoyed me.

See Change
 
hi sea change
not sure about the education level or the financial stus of any member on any board and not sure if I want to know for that matter.
As for morals I deal with lots of different groups and they all have different morals and one persons morals shouldn't and doesn't for me change my morals nor my views they can adjust as I get differing views but the fundamentals are the same
and that is also a very good saying
judge others as you would want them to judge you.
I have posted a post for people to give me what there view of china is.
 
see_change said:
According to the English philosopher Edmund Burke ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

To invest in companies that you know to practice unethical practices , is condoing it . Where else do they get the money to continue ?

Alexlee , are you a good person , or just a moral vacuum
See Change

Under my own definition, I'm ok. Under yours, I'm a moral black hole. I recognise why you think I'm unethical, and I respect your point of view, but I don't feel any better or worse because of your opinion. That's the fun in discussing different points of view.

I just don't feel much sympathy for those other than those I know and love (family, friends, etc). I applaud people when they succeed, but I have little sympathy for those who aren't as well off (whether it's their fault or not). I believe that we take responsibility for everything that we do, and there are no excuses in life.

I make no excuses for what I am. I know that I'm able to be the way I am because most people are NOT like me (more power to them). I admire charitable people but have no desire to join them. In my case a lot of the evil (gap between rich and poor, cheap production in China leading to cheaper goods, etc) benefits me since I'm on the winning side.
Alex
 
I can relate to where you are coming from Alex.

At least you are blunt and honest about it.

And my sentiments reflect yours..

kp
 
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