Landmark courses

[pully]

i have to plead ignorance of this organisation however there are many mentions on line, mixed.
what do they charge?
would a qualified life coach help you achieve the same insight/enlightenment?
or a qualified psychotherapist?

some do better with individual sessions than group meetings, but we are all different.
look forward to feedback from those who attend.

years ago some personal growth educational groups were pushing the ideas and practises of encounter groups from america. but i think they were later found to be questionable.
i think it all depends on where and how you see yourself at the time. it could be beneficial but it could be more of a problem if you are vulnerable.
providing they are an ethical organisation all should be ok.
regards

 

[House_Keeper]

Yes, I have seen it make major difference in some peoples lives. However Landmark still contains large parts of watered-down EST training. I would recommend that anyone thinking about Landmark should google EST and google Landmark. Look at both sides of the story before you make a decision.

Thanks for that input.

I did a google search on Landmark.

I came to the conclusion that it was a dangerous organisation to get involved with. Many consider it a cult.

They seem to specialise in mind manipulation techniques, for their benefits more than yours.

Their founder (Werner Erhard) definitely seems far from ethical.

Cheers,

 

[Ms Jade]

...I came to the conclusion that it was a dangerous organisation to get involved with. Many consider it a cult.

OMG! I was involved with a cult for years and didn't even know it?! How dumb am I? LMAO; Thank god for the internet!

 

[Perp]

I'm embarking on this course tomorrow. I'll be sure to report back!

Five of my friends have done the course over the past few months - none of who I'd consider the types likely to fall victims to cults, and none of them sharing my religion - and all have raved about it.

 

[Bigtone]

I'm embarking on this course tomorrow. I'll be sure to report back!

Five of my friends have done the course over the past few months - none of who I'd consider the types likely to fall victims to cults, and none of them sharing my religion - and all have raved about it.

no no no no, Perp u r way to smart for this, run and don't look back, please i beg u run!

 

[Piston Broke]

Nothing wrong with self development but from what I'm reading these types of orgs depend on the emotionally weak with low confidence and self esteem.
They don't want people taking antidepressants, as they want to be the providers of the solution.
Many Amway groups do the same, as does the marketing of "the secret" and a lot of other Oprah promoted stuff.

which is reknowned for pumping out multi-millionaires..

This is a load of croc.
I looked at their past graduates and I see nothing spectacular, and all usa ppl.
There are many other organisations I'd join if past member's achievements was the criteria starting with skull & bones, cfr and the freemasons, many of which proclaim to do the same type of thing in terms of good for society.

 

[INVSTOR]

Looking forward to your updates Perpey!

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Be interested to know what you pay Perpy, and how many physically disabled people are there being put in touch with their full potential......

BTW, following on from earlier posts, I had a long conversation with Werner Erhard and his no.1 Sydney 'helper' (very attractive young female) in 1981 at an EST info night. His intuition and insight underwhelmed me. I'd peg him as a Myers Briggs sensate. His self importance and ego stood out though, as did his preoccupation with his helper.

Interestingly, John Denver got involved with EST in the 80s. I met him on several occasions when I was spending time with a US osteopath mentor then. John was going through a difficult patch of cognitive dissonance post EST, and was flying out to Pennsylvania regularly for long talks with my mentor.

 

[Perp]

Be interested to know what you pay Perpy, and how many physically disabled people are there being put in touch with their full potential......

The course costs $575 for 3 days and an evening (42 hours, 35 hours' tuition excluding breaks). Interestingly, one of the first people I saw yesterday was a young lady in a wheelchair.

There are 235 people in my course, and the coach made heaps of jokes about people doing the sums and wondering how much he's earning instead of concentrating on the course material. (LOL - guilty! )

I don't really care about what kind of person Werner Erhard was or is, to be honest; I only care about what I can get out of this course, which was re-written in Sep 2009. And even if he were still involved or had written this course (neither of which is the case), there are plenty of therapists who are great with clients and hopeless themselves, hence the saying "physician, heal thyself!". So Werner Erhard's credibility or lack thereof is not really relevant to me.

Day 1 was gruelling for me; sitting 13 hours with limited breaks is almost as claustrophobic as flying to LA. I got through yesterday by the skin of my teeth, and I confess the thought of doing it twice more was totally overwhelming last night, but of course doesn't seem so bad this morning after a good night's sleep. Day 1 is where you learn the language and concepts and is heavily "receive mode"; you don't really do much in the way of "work", so it is apparently the least interesting and hardest day to get through. (Still interesting, just not "riveting".)

The remainder of this post is very much opinion rather than report, and I apologise in advance if I have it wrong.

Whilst I haven't yet done my work, I think I have a pretty strong flavour of what the course is about. As Landmark openly acknowledge, there's nothing new there, and there's no secret. It's based on the work of many famous psychologists and philosophers, such as Gestalt therapy and I saw a very heavy influence by Heidegger (regarding authenticity and figuring out who you really are).

What I do think is great about Landmark is that they package and deliver it in a way that's very effective for many people, and which has been honed and refined over many years. There were some things yesterday that ticked me off a bit and I found a bit odd. Interestingly, as I'd resolved to be open-minded, I just sat and waited, and a few hours later it became clear to me that even those incidents had been carefully crafted - and brilliantly executed - to generate some important insights about one's own reaction to those incidents. I'm now confident that every moment of the course has a point, and if I don't get it immediately, I will, or I should try and figure out what it is.

My only interest in telling you about my experience is to share. I think I've become known on Somersoft as fairly rational and "skeptical but not cynical", and so for what it's worth, I'm sharing my perceptions and experiences of Landmark in the hope that it's helpful to somebody else trying to decide whether or not Landmark is for them.

The course bears absolutely no relationship to the Anthony Robbins / neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) / "The Secret" / affirmations-type training. If anything, it's based on the opposite premises.

Landmark is much less about your thoughts, and more about who you really are. When you figure out who you really are - without all the false beliefs you've formed over the years about who you are - and then you naturally behave consistently with your new recognition of who you really are, you'll achieve things which previously you hadn't imagined were possible.

Anyway, time to go and get ready for another long day!

 

[Perp]

The course bears absolutely no relationship to the Anthony Robbins / neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) / "The Secret" / affirmations-type training. If anything, it's based on the opposite premises.

This was reinforced by a very interesting interaction last night between a participant, X, and the forum leader, L.

L was encouraging us to identify all the things about our life that weren't great, by asking us to throw in adjectives. Examples: tiring, boring, stressful, hard, unfair, etc. I immediately saw the point, even though I'm usually a "glass half full" kind of gal. If you have a glass half full, focusing entirely on the half that you have and going on about how wonderful it is to have half a glass rather than none, there's no opportunity to fill the other half. By shining a light on the empty half, you create the possibility to see and fill that void. It doesn't mean that you have to live with that perception every day; L just wanted us all to focus on the empty half for a while.

X has obviously been to a lot of "The Secret"-type programs, and kept resisting this thought experiment, insisting that life was exciting and abundant and X wasn't going to say anything negative about it. X seemed completely incapable of seeing that (s)he didn't have to permanently "buy in" to a belief that life sucked, L was just asking X to "try it on" for a short while as an experiment, in order to clearly identify those areas of life in which X isn't happy. L and X had a rather lengthy confrontation.

It became obvious to me that it's true that too much positive thinking is a bad thing; for X, there was no opportunity to identify anything in life which needed to be improved. X was so committed to wearing the "mask" that everything in life is brilliant, that there was no possibility of identifying opportunities for growth. I know this is not necessarily an outcome of this kind of thinking, but X was certainly a clear example of everything about that type of thinking which I reject as delusional and limiting , and certainly reinforced that Landmark bears no resemblance to NLP-type programs.

Anyway, another very long day yesterday, another 3 assignments to do between 10pm last night and 9am today... it's extremely hard work, mentally and emotionally!

 

[WinstonWolfe]

I don't really care about what kind of person Werner Erhard was or is, to be honest; I only care about what I can get out of this course, which was re-written in Sep 2009. And even if he were still involved or had written this course (neither of which is the case), there are plenty of therapists who are great with clients and hopeless themselves, hence the saying "physician, heal thyself!". So Werner Erhard's credibility or lack thereof is not really relevant to me.

From Wiki
"In 1991, Erhard retired from business, sold his intellectual properties to a group of his former employees (who formed Landmark Education) and moved abroad."

As Landmark openly acknowledge, there's nothing new there, and there's no secret. It's based on the work of many famous psychologists and philosophers, such as Gestalt therapy and I saw a very heavy influence by Heidegger (regarding authenticity and figuring out who you really are).

Perp, without exposure to Erhard's courses, it would be difficult to state emphatically which parts of Landmark's courses are NOT the intellectual property they paid Erhard for. And considering Landmark is a for profit business whose only? asset is intellectual property, I would expect there to be vigorous efforts to re-invent and re-package that property.

Is there congruity between your statements that :
"Landmark openly acknowledge there's nothing new there"
and
"this course was re-written in 2009"?

Anyway Perpy, I hope you get out of it the positive stuff you expected, or didn't expect, or both.

 

[Perp]

Perp, without exposure to Erhard's courses, it would be difficult to state emphatically which parts of Landmark's courses are NOT the intellectual property they paid Erhard for.

I agree. I have no idea.

Is there congruity between your statements that :
"Landmark openly acknowledge there's nothing new there"
and
"this course was re-written in 2009"?

I don't see any contradiction. There's a difference between the knowledge which underlies the course, and the course content, eg the way it's presented, the exercises, the analogies, etc. The body of knowledge on which the course is based, including the work of Heidegger, Gestalt therapy, Zen buddhism, etc, all existed before Werner Erhard and Landmark. Both Werner Erhard and Landmark have simply found a way to put it all together and provide exercises which allow participants to draw something valuable from it.

To use an analogy from your domain, the bones of the human body are all known; we don't discover new bones. (We probably will discover new things about the human experience, but bear with me...) You can't copyright, or have unique knowledge about, the bones in the human body. But somebody's anatomical drawings, slides, and method for teaching people anatomy could be innovative, and the way in which anatomy is taught differs between institutions. Some people probably teach it very effectively, and others leave students floundering in a sea of jargon.

I believe that Landmark has found an effective way to bring together a number of teachings about the nature of life, to help many people have an experience and insight which makes a profound difference in their lives. And for some, it doesn't. And that's OK. We're all different. I think that 15 years ago, I wouldn't have gotten much out of it, either; I was far too analytical and had to "get" things immediately. The more comfortable you are with uncertainty and being open to new possibilities, the more you're likely to get out of the course.

My main disappointment was not having a badly damaged relationship to clean up! I was amazed just how many people there are out there who aren't talking to a parent or sibling; loads of them! I thought that fewer than 1 in 1000 people would be in this situation, but now I'd say that 1 in 10 would be closer (or possibly even that's an underestimate). Over the weekend, I heard at least 10 stories of people who hadn't talked to their mother for 20 years, or hadn't spoken to their brother for 10 years, or whatever, who were able to make phone calls and begin to mend those relationships. I bawled my eyes out, and loved it.

Anyway Perpy, I hope you get out of it the positive stuff you expected, or didn't expect, or both.

I tried not to have too many expectations, and this served me well. You really have to be prepared to "run with it", even when you don't get the point, because everything does have a point. I think I got most of it, but there were a few things I'm going to "chew on".

I also discovered that the $575 tuition includes 10 x weekly 3-hour follow-up seminars, which are done in small groups (I think groups of 5-10?). You get a lot of "bang for your buck"; 65 hours' tuition for $575 is pretty reasonable. And I'd be surprised if, out of the 235 people who did the course, there were more than a handful who wouldn't think it was worth every cent.

 

[Bird Dog]

Well done Perp on keeping an open mind.

One of the biggest failures of any personal development is to close one's mind.

Great to hear you are doing so well and remember that you are exactly where you need to be....

I look forward to hearing about your Tuesday night session......

 

[Player]

One of the biggest failures of any personal development is to close one's mind................

Too true BD.

Our mind is like a parachute; it works best when it's open

** Edit ** I should caveat that whilst it's open, one should also have their own (mind) anti-virus running in the background. Be selective of what you let in. It needs to serve you for improvement not disempower you to the rut of the datasphere.

 

[Perp]

Great to hear you are doing so well and remember that you are exactly where you need to be....

I look forward to hearing about your Tuesday night session......

Thanks, Bird Dog. You sound like a graduate. In the spirit of sharing, would you like to share your experiences with Landmark, or add/correct anything?

 

[Piston Broke]

My main disappointment was not having a badly damaged relationship to clean up! I was amazed just how many people there are out there who aren't talking to a parent or sibling

Which is why I typed "from what I'm reading these types of orgs depend on the emotionally weak with low confidence and self esteem."
Anybody who is relatively stable is not their target market imo, though a few will always turn up.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Landmark is much less about your thoughts, and more about who you really are. When you figure out who you really are - without all the false beliefs you've formed over the years about who you are - and then you naturally behave consistently with your new recognition of who you really are, you'll achieve things which previously you hadn't imagined were possible.

God Speed finding out who you really are Perpy.

I'm going back to contemplate the 'real you' of someone with advanced dementia or terminal addiction to heroin. What has happened to the 'real them'? And what happens to the 'real you' after you die?

IMHO, the limitations of transformational psychology is that, the stuff of its paradigms is neural tissue - the brain - some parts very plastic and others not so. That is of course, unless the paradigm resorts to a belief in a 'real you' that is beyond the physical structure of the brain.......a metaphysical 'real you'.....

 

[Dazz]

I think I've become known on Somersoft as fairly rational and ..... I bawled my eyes out, and loved it.

Hey ?? Fairly rational ?? Turn it up - you're as mad as a cut snake me ol' chuffta...

 

[Perp]

Which is why I typed "from what I'm reading these types of orgs depend on the emotionally weak with low confidence and self esteem."
Anybody who is relatively stable is not their target market imo, though a few will always turn up.

I can see why you'd think that. I would assess that the participants were, overall, emotionally stronger than average, because they were willing to go, knowing they'd have to "confront their demons". The emotionally weak would continue to blame others and refuse to accept responsibility.

I'm going back to contemplate the 'real you' of someone with advanced dementia or terminal addiction to heroin.

So instead of getting insight into yourself, you're going to try and figure out somebody else? I don't understand your point. Yes, there are people who are losing, or have lost, themselves, and that's tragic. But how does you avoiding getting to know yourself help them? (If that's what you're suggesting.) Or is it either/or thinking, suggesting that there's no time and space for people to "indulge" in getting to know themselves when the world's so full of suffering? (Like that self-absorbed Gandhi, perhaps...)

What has happened to the 'real them'? And what happens to the 'real you' after you die?

That would be what many refer to as the soul, and what happens to it - if you accept that it exists - would depend on your religion/spirituality.

That is of course, unless the paradigm resorts to a belief in a 'real you' that is beyond the physical structure of the brain.......a metaphysical 'real you'.....

Landmark just talks about a "real you" which is your soul, or personality, or character, or innermost self; there's no discussion of where it exists. For me, it resides in the brain, yes.

In my spiritual search, I wrestled with a related question a lot: where/what is God? What is God made of? etc, based on an unshakeable conviction that science and rationality can explain everything. (I'm still pretty wedded to that position, actually.)

For me, the turning point was when I considered the analogy of love. Where does love reside? If it's in the brain, which portions of the brain does it reside in? Can you measure it? If it's just my thoughts, then why can't I just click my fingers and decide not to love somebody? If you're physically separated from the one you love, why do you feel angst? How does their physical presence affect your emotional state? Because rationally, there's absolutely no difference to the physical you, whether they're present or not.

Similarly, whilst I can't point to where "the soul" or "God" are, it doesn't really matter. If they reside entirely in the brain, that makes them no less "real".

Hey ?? Fairly rational ?? Turn it up - you're as mad as a cut snake me ol' chuffta...

And loving every minute of it!

 

[evand]

Hi Tracy

I have been a bit cynical of these things in the past. But as i'm maturing and had some life issues ive become a bit more open minded to them. If someone of your intelligence and with your obvious healthy skepticism can benefit from it then it cant be too bad.

What was the name of the course you did as i see there are different ones on their website.