Landmark courses
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WW, can I suggest that your responses in the last few pages of this thread (which I have just read) contain waay more evidence of emotional investment than anything ozperp has said. IMO the only ''overt[ly] derisive stance" is exhibited in your own posts. Perhaps if you come back and read this in 4-6 weeks you will see who, in fact, was wedded to their position regardless of contrary evidence. I accept that you know people who didn't seem to get any benefit from the program. Fair enough; I'm sure there are many who haven't. But it seems to me that you have discounted the legitimacy of someone else's first hand experience as an 'expert' observer with no first hand experience of your own.
if you don't understand what i'm saying then cool, i'l try to explain a little more, but if you do, and disagree, then i'll accept that we don't see eye to eye and am happy to move on.
In Perp's words Jade, You're right!!!!
I am the more emotive one for not accepting that Landmark is beyond criticism because it is a flawless mechanical system to manipulate the psyche and emotions, based on a perfect understanding of the human condition in all its variations.
The course is flawless and will without reservation, help all who pay the $600 educational fee. Any attendee who's life doesn't change as per the advertising, must not have taken notes or has some pre-existing psychoemotional issue and should be medicated post haste.
Further, my double major in psych and post grad diploma in counseling psych render me so biased and professionally jealous of Landmark, that I am unable to objectively evaluate the significant reams of literature I have read re the history of Landmark and its current incarnation, nor am I objective enough to have correctly interpreted Landmark's effects on the attendees I mentioned earlier.
I should leave this thread immediately and stop disturbing other people's perception of reality, because frankly, no one likes a kill joy, and after all, life is all about having fun and not rocking the boat.
I am the more emotive one for not accepting that Landmark is beyond criticism because it is a flawless mechanical system to manipulate the psyche and emotions, based on a perfect understanding of the human condition in all its variations.
The course is flawless and will without reservation, help all who pay the $600 educational fee. Any attendee who's life doesn't change as per the advertising, must not have taken notes or has some pre-existing psychoemotional issue and should be medicated post haste.
Further, my double major in psych and post grad diploma in counseling psych render me so biased and professionally jealous of Landmark, that I am unable to objectively evaluate the significant reams of literature I have read re the history of Landmark and its current incarnation, nor am I objective enough to have correctly interpreted Landmark's effects on the attendees I mentioned earlier.
I should leave this thread immediately and stop disturbing other people's perception of reality, because frankly, no one likes a kill joy, and after all, life is all about having fun and not rocking the boat.
Absolutely spot on !!!!
man if you're gonna chuck in the towel like a spat dummy then fine, take your double psych major, along with your bat and ball, and go home.
i'm just putting another viewpoint out there, WW. you don't like the course - fine! you don't have to. but it's obvious it works for a great many people, so who are we to criticise it?
if you do truly believe there are flaws, maybe you should try and fix any shortcomings you see by getting involved with it and change their screening process (or introduce one) instead of having a whinge on the innanet.
i'm just putting another viewpoint out there, WW. you don't like the course - fine! you don't have to. but it's obvious it works for a great many people, so who are we to criticise it?
if you do truly believe there are flaws, maybe you should try and fix any shortcomings you see by getting involved with it and change their screening process (or introduce one) instead of having a whinge on the innanet.
I hadn't realized how much stuff is on the net about Landmark until this afternoon as I had no interest. Considering the direction this thread has taken, I decided to have a look. It confirmed my views and the thoughts I've had about the organization's structure and executive.
Here's an investigative journalism video of a 2002 French Landmark 3 day course. Many of the techniques are identical to those used in the early 80s at the Forum course I attended. Interestingly, one of the psychiatrists interviewed in the French video commented that Landmark has constantly needed to reinvent itself due to bad press, in an effort to re-legitimize itself, which I agree with.
The people behind Landmark and its structure are anathema to me, and to the governments of France, Belgium, and Sweden, which banned it.
Anyone reading this thread should keep in mind the Landmark recruitment process in the French video, when reading the pro Landmark posts in this thread.
Some things never change, which you don't find out without historical perspective.
*SIGH* if you're gonna agree with the French govt on anything, then i end my participation.
AFAIK, the French govt forced it to close down because it broke French laws relating to 'for profit' private enterprise engaging in the widespread and systematic exploitation of unpaid labor. I believe the Belgium Govt banned it similarly to the French. Landmark have also had trouble with the German govt.
The Swedish govt had similar labor laws to the French, and only banned Landmark from continuing to exploit unpaid labor. Landmark chose to close down operations. Why? Due to Landmark's pyramid structure and siphoning of most revenue to the senior executive, Landmark's 'for profit' business model cannot function without exploiting unpaid labor.
What an ethical and professional group of people to take advice about human potential from.
Systematic and widespread exploitation of unpaid labor is also an issue in the USA. Landmark are extremely aggressive and litigious in suppressing this information.
From Wikileaks, Release Date : April 15, 2009
US Department of Labor investigation into Landmark Education, 2006
"Thousands of reports from journalists and "participants", stretching back three decades, have established some basic facts about a standard Landmark experience. Landmark puts groups of people in a room for three days and subjects them to various psychological brainwashing techniques that make them feel great about themselves and Landmark. Landmark then manipulates these victims into signing up for more expensive courses and volunteering for Landmark's for-profit business. Landmark's intent is to keep people "hooked" and constantly involved. Landmark victims will then forgo and forsake their own best interests in order to continue participating with and volunteering for Landmark, which often results in permanent, lasting damage to the victim's personal life.
Landmark's continued operation depends on their ability to find and recruit new victims. To ensure this, they have developed a highly effective censorship and propaganda program that suppresses negative information through lawsuits and threats, while issuing false or manipulated positive propaganda about the organization."
...............
"(6) Landmark's ongoing censorship and propaganda efforts include a campaign against Wikipedia, where Landmark is removing critical information and replacing it with propaganda. Wikipedia editors are meeting to consider the Landmark Education entry, and we need this document published so we can cite and refer to it in our efforts to restore the truth about Landmark to Wikipedia. Landmark also appears to be preparing to change its name again in response to accumulated negative publicity, so this should be published promptly."
From Wikileaks, Release Date : April 15, 2009
US Department of Labor investigation into Landmark Education, 2006
"Thousands of reports from journalists and "participants", stretching back three decades, have established some basic facts about a standard Landmark experience. Landmark puts groups of people in a room for three days and subjects them to various psychological brainwashing techniques that make them feel great about themselves and Landmark. Landmark then manipulates these victims into signing up for more expensive courses and volunteering for Landmark's for-profit business. Landmark's intent is to keep people "hooked" and constantly involved. Landmark victims will then forgo and forsake their own best interests in order to continue participating with and volunteering for Landmark, which often results in permanent, lasting damage to the victim's personal life.
Landmark's continued operation depends on their ability to find and recruit new victims. To ensure this, they have developed a highly effective censorship and propaganda program that suppresses negative information through lawsuits and threats, while issuing false or manipulated positive propaganda about the organization."
...............
"(6) Landmark's ongoing censorship and propaganda efforts include a campaign against Wikipedia, where Landmark is removing critical information and replacing it with propaganda. Wikipedia editors are meeting to consider the Landmark Education entry, and we need this document published so we can cite and refer to it in our efforts to restore the truth about Landmark to Wikipedia. Landmark also appears to be preparing to change its name again in response to accumulated negative publicity, so this should be published promptly."
LOL. Very good!
Physio isn't a major meconium. It is a bachelors or masters.
One of the advantages of being 'old' is that you've had time to broaden your knowledge with further study. In fact, ongoing post grad study is compulsory for health professionals. The other advantage of being old and having studied a bit, is that you have insight into things that you wouldn't have otherwise, like whether Landmark's business model, marketing, and product is kosher.
It's second nature to me (psych background and a ton of human behaviour experience here too) to not take these types of courses at face value.
They're a business whichever way you look at it and use well tried and successful techniques to send their message across.
How long these changes to minset last probably varies alot but as long as you remain openminded on this and don't mind paying this money then go for it.
I doubt they'd make any inroads with me.
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But coursework is coursework, wouldn't you say? It's amazing just how many grads these days are incapable of thinking critically or stringing a sentence together.
BTW when was Physio first introduced as a formal degree? Will Osteopathy and Naturopathy follow? How bout Basket Weaving? *wink*
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/sandwich-making-offered-as-diploma/story-e6frfku0-1225895824805
Put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig with lipstick.
And what's the difference when uneducated illiterates are not any better either.
But no, coursework is NOT coursework.
And this mob is propaganda more than coursework.
Geezus, you for real or what...
Totally real - I have a lot of time for Physios, if you must know. And unlike most of my MBBS colleagues, I actually have gone out and met Chiropracters, Osteopaths, Acupuncturists and people from like professions. No harm in a bit of diversity, even if WW disagrees.
Naturopathy - Check out Endeavour College, Perth.
World Recognised Course.
World Recognised Course.
meconium, my greatest mentor was an American osteopath.
Getting back to Landmark.
Perp has relayed what she has apparently read or been told by Landmark paid or volunteer workers....that the course was re-written last year. Perp has been made to believe Werner Erhard has nothing to do with the company or writing its material. However, with the ongoing marketing deception and unethical behavior Landmark has engaged in more recently, which resulted in their offices being shut down in Belgium, France, and Sweden, who do you believe?
If today's course is so different to previous courses, then using historical endorsements to substantiate and market the new course is deceptive and misleading.
Landmark's website still refers to a 1999 Harvard Business School case study, that Landmark deceptively referred to as a positive endorsement....which it was not. Harvard insisted Landmark cease and desist from referring to it as such, and publish a correction. Landmark is a very savvy (I'd say sly) marketing machine and know most will still interpret the Harvard mention positively.
The website's first listed 'independent study' about the effectiveness of Landmark, The Yankelovich Study is not dated, nor is it available in the scientific literature or elsewhere. It's methodology is undisclosed.
Interestingly, if Werner Erhard has nothing to do with Landmark anymore, and the course has had a major re-write since he 'sold' the business, why does wernererhard.com feature the same Yankelovich Study in his biography? He sold out 19 years ago, apparently. Why is Landmark continuing to use a 19 year old study to validate a course that they tell new attendees has been so extensively re-written?
Werner Erhard only made an arrangement to sell the business (and took off sans family to the Cayman Islands) after his children and several key staff did an American 60 Minutes interview in March 1991, telling about the violent abusive power freak Werner they knew. Incest and having one of his key staff physically strangle his wife until she was blue in front of his children are mentioned in the 60 Minute interview by family and the ex employee who did the strangling. The 60 Minute interview is available for download here (80MB). There were also tax evasion charges hanging over Erhard (which explains the Cayman Islands). All this from the guy who writes courses to get people to have more successful and fulfilling personal relationships and business success.
Since Werner Erhard apparently 'sold' the company to his 'employees', his natural brother Harry Rosenburg has been the CEO, Werner's sister remains on the Board of Directors; and Werner's long time friend and current lawyer, Art Schreiber, is the Chairman of Landmark Education's board and their general consul.
Further, Wikipedia on Werner Erhard states:
"From time to time Erhard consults with Landmark Education.[64]"
Interestingly, the accompanying reference to Landmark's website has been blocked.
I don't doubt some people benefit from Landmark courses. I also don't doubt that well intentioned noble people do the courses. However, my view and that of many others, is that Landmark is a sausage machine, that feeds people along a conveyor of expensive courses, each promising to get attendees in touch with some part of themselves they are not in touch with now.
I'd encourage people interested in the courses to scroll through the current course offerings. I stopped counting at 50. Ask yourself what you specifically want to get out of the initial 3 day course.....Then ask yourself if the first course is so effective and all encompassing, why are another 50 odd courses offered, all with similar marketing spin.
For me, Landmark Education was and remains a soft touch.
I have read enough to believe Werner Erhard (aka John Paul Rosenberg), the Rosenberg family, and several of Werner's close friends like Art Schreiber, remain the primary profiteers of the business. Landmark should stop with the furtive and deceptive corporate behavior if they want to convince me otherwise.
Anyone who seriously thinks Landmark product can deliver what it says it can, should start with the guys at the top. Find out as much as you can about the guys who create the courses. Demand proof of who they are and why their lives are not show cased as benefiting from the supreme insights and methods of the courses they create.
Getting back to Landmark.
Perp has relayed what she has apparently read or been told by Landmark paid or volunteer workers....that the course was re-written last year. Perp has been made to believe Werner Erhard has nothing to do with the company or writing its material. However, with the ongoing marketing deception and unethical behavior Landmark has engaged in more recently, which resulted in their offices being shut down in Belgium, France, and Sweden, who do you believe?
If today's course is so different to previous courses, then using historical endorsements to substantiate and market the new course is deceptive and misleading.
Landmark's website still refers to a 1999 Harvard Business School case study, that Landmark deceptively referred to as a positive endorsement....which it was not. Harvard insisted Landmark cease and desist from referring to it as such, and publish a correction. Landmark is a very savvy (I'd say sly) marketing machine and know most will still interpret the Harvard mention positively.
The website's first listed 'independent study' about the effectiveness of Landmark, The Yankelovich Study is not dated, nor is it available in the scientific literature or elsewhere. It's methodology is undisclosed.
Interestingly, if Werner Erhard has nothing to do with Landmark anymore, and the course has had a major re-write since he 'sold' the business, why does wernererhard.com feature the same Yankelovich Study in his biography? He sold out 19 years ago, apparently. Why is Landmark continuing to use a 19 year old study to validate a course that they tell new attendees has been so extensively re-written?
Werner Erhard only made an arrangement to sell the business (and took off sans family to the Cayman Islands) after his children and several key staff did an American 60 Minutes interview in March 1991, telling about the violent abusive power freak Werner they knew. Incest and having one of his key staff physically strangle his wife until she was blue in front of his children are mentioned in the 60 Minute interview by family and the ex employee who did the strangling. The 60 Minute interview is available for download here (80MB). There were also tax evasion charges hanging over Erhard (which explains the Cayman Islands). All this from the guy who writes courses to get people to have more successful and fulfilling personal relationships and business success.
Since Werner Erhard apparently 'sold' the company to his 'employees', his natural brother Harry Rosenburg has been the CEO, Werner's sister remains on the Board of Directors; and Werner's long time friend and current lawyer, Art Schreiber, is the Chairman of Landmark Education's board and their general consul.
Further, Wikipedia on Werner Erhard states:
"From time to time Erhard consults with Landmark Education.[64]"
Interestingly, the accompanying reference to Landmark's website has been blocked.
I don't doubt some people benefit from Landmark courses. I also don't doubt that well intentioned noble people do the courses. However, my view and that of many others, is that Landmark is a sausage machine, that feeds people along a conveyor of expensive courses, each promising to get attendees in touch with some part of themselves they are not in touch with now.
I'd encourage people interested in the courses to scroll through the current course offerings. I stopped counting at 50. Ask yourself what you specifically want to get out of the initial 3 day course.....Then ask yourself if the first course is so effective and all encompassing, why are another 50 odd courses offered, all with similar marketing spin.
For me, Landmark Education was and remains a soft touch.
I have read enough to believe Werner Erhard (aka John Paul Rosenberg), the Rosenberg family, and several of Werner's close friends like Art Schreiber, remain the primary profiteers of the business. Landmark should stop with the furtive and deceptive corporate behavior if they want to convince me otherwise.
Anyone who seriously thinks Landmark product can deliver what it says it can, should start with the guys at the top. Find out as much as you can about the guys who create the courses. Demand proof of who they are and why their lives are not show cased as benefiting from the supreme insights and methods of the courses they create.
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