Landmark courses

[Perp]

I have been a bit cynical of these things in the past. But as i'm maturing and had some life issues ive become a bit more open minded to them. If someone of your intelligence and with your obvious healthy skepticism can benefit from it then it cant be too bad.

Thanks, evand. I've also become more open-minded as I "mature" . Like you, it was precisely because of people that I know and respect having recommended Landmark, that I decided to give it a go.

What was the name of the course you did as i see there are different ones on their website.

I did "The Landmark Forum", which is the first course in the "curriculum for life" series.

Tonight I'm "graduating", and there's a 3-hour session on which is open to everybody, if anybody in Brisbane is interested in going to get an idea what the course is about, and hear about what others have achieved over the past 5 days. The session is at Eight Mile Plains (southern Brisbane). PM me for details if you'd like to come. (There's no network marketing aspect, I get no benefit from you coming, registering for a course, etc.) I'll be there with at least one friend, and possibly hubby.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

So instead of getting insight into yourself, you're going to try and figure out somebody else? I don't understand your point. Yes, there are people who are losing, or have lost, themselves, and that's tragic. But how does you avoiding getting to know yourself help them? (If that's what you're suggesting.) Or is it either/or thinking, suggesting that there's no time and space for people to "indulge" in getting to know themselves when the world's so full of suffering? (Like that self-absorbed Gandhi, perhaps...)

Before I spend $600 for someone to straighten me out on the human condition and life meaning, I'd prefer their paradigm accounts for all permutations of the human condition. If it cannot do that, then it is an incomplete model, more likely an artefact of the limited 'for profit' rational mind.

Besides, if I start getting more forgetful, I'd start worrying that I was getting alzheimers and losing the real me. Then I'd worry about who was in my head if not the real me. And who says I might not have a dissecting aneurysm of the basilar artery tomorrow?

That would be what many refer to as the soul, and what happens to it - if you accept that it exists - would depend on your religion/spirituality.

Landmark just talks about a "real you" which is your soul, or personality, or character, or innermost self; there's no discussion of where it exists. For me, it resides in the brain, yes.

In my spiritual search, I wrestled with a related question a lot: where/what is God? What is God made of? etc, based on an unshakeable conviction that science and rationality can explain everything. (I'm still pretty wedded to that position, actually.)

OK, I'll presume Landmark believe their paradigm is not a spiritual teaching, but their intention is to bring to market strategies that can be accommodated by those with spiritual or atheistic beliefs..... Strategies based solely on either would reduce their potential market (and profit) significantly. For atheists however, their 'real you' will be susceptible to the brain's degenerative processes of aging or brain injury. Damage the brain and no more real atheist.

Similarly, whilst I can't point to where "the soul" or "God" are, it doesn't really matter. If they reside entirely in the brain, that makes them no less "real".

Obviously, my issue with weekend courses that challenge people's preconceptions and identity, and believe they have a better path to the real you, is that they are trying to do what religions do. There's no proof Landmark's view of the real you is any more real than Christianity's or Islam's. Students have to take Landmark's paradigm on an act of faith....

Nevertheless, I can accept for those who have done little questing for life meaning previously, and are not in touch already with a locus of love and wisdom within, then Landmark might help them more quickly discover some of that.

My view is the 'transformational psych without religious belief' phenomenon is all part of a secular society's process to replace religious belief with something more acceptable/convenient to the secular and uncommitted mind.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Dazz]

.....but does it increase the rent level received ??


Winston - you're way too intelligent to be a property investor.


My head hurts.

 

[Bird Dog]

Thanks, Bird Dog. You sound like a graduate. In the spirit of sharing, would you like to share your experiences with Landmark, or add/correct anything?

Guilty on that point Perp.
Happy to admit that I've completed the full curriculum along with a number of other workshops over the past 5 years.
I’m not actively completing any courses at the moment but who knows what may come up in the future.

Like you I love to analyse things and made all sorts of reason why Landmark was wrong. Most notably was the language they used. “Why can’t they just say it’s wrong rather than making me learn a whole new dialect”
But as you have learnt, it’s so we don’t fall into the trap of dealing with same old problems in the same old way. A new set of tools (in you will) for addressing the same old challenges in life.

To quote some old dude with ze crazy hair…
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"…
How often are we frustrated with the results our life produces but can honestly say we approached every challenge with a clean slate, unhindered with prior beliefs and misconceptions.

Do I now have a full grasp on life and "who I am" and why I was put here.... of course not, but that’s not really the point! I’m here to enjoy the journey and get as much juice out of life as I can possibly squeeze.

I’m not going to go on defending Landmark as quite frankly, I don’t need to and neither should you.
If anyone wants to do Landmark……just do it!
If not, don’t do it because that’s fine too.

Good luck to you all. I'm off to fine another Orange tree...

B.D.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

.....but does it increase the rent level received ??

Winston - you're way too intelligent to be a property investor.

My head hurts.

That can't be your real head then.....

Maybe it'd be better if I was way too 'loving' to be a property investor. Basing one's existence on cognitive constructs alone is poor preparation for the humbling challenges of life locked into an inherently decaying human brain and body.

I wonder, if I made poorer but more loving property investments, would the Law of Attraction work better for me?

 

[WinstonWolfe]

I’m not going to go on defending Landmark as quite frankly, I don’t need to and neither should you.
If anyone wants to do Landmark……just do it!
If not, don’t do it because that’s fine too.

Yes, any criticism about Landmark should be in the Landmark Critique thread.

This is the "My life is missing something, like a couple of mill and a bit of deeper meaning, and I wouldn't mind doing the Landmark Course but need that extra bit of reinforcement from of a group of like mindeds, before independently making my own mind up that it is right for me' thread.

(sorry, I shall now turn off my overly analytical and somewhat cynical mind, and go engage my real me to study gold and palladium fundamentals, update presentations for the 2010 Macquarie Bank corporate health workshops, and arrange travel plans to buy into a Pennsylvanian medical centre Obama desperately wants to increase the revenues of)

 

[Dazz]

I wonder, if I made poorer but more loving property investments, would the Law of Attraction work better for me?

I could go out tomorrow and buy 10 different apartments, and attract all sorts of hangers on who would love to live in them for about half of what it costs to hold them.

• They'd all bump my property held count way up.
• They'd all be loving caring investments.
• They'd all attract tens of applications.

...but so what ?? None of those things are the point of investing.


Sorry - I'll stop being practical. Back to the existential head thingo.

 

[evand]

Maybe you should go and make a cup of tea and have a lie down instead Winston.

(sorry, I shall now turn off my overly analytical and somewhat cynical mind, and go engage my real me to study gold and palladium fundamentals, update presentations for the 2010 Macquarie Bank corporate health workshops, and arrange travel plans to buy into a Pennsylvanian medical centre Obama desperately wants to increase the revenues of)

 

[WinstonWolfe]

...but so what ?? None of those things are the point of investing.

Which underscores acts of charity often stunt people's opportunity to realize their full potential, by sheltering them from the harsh light of day and the journey their real them might prefer.

Maybe you should go and make a cup of tea and have a lie down instead Winston.

Evan, could you try it first, then get back to the thread on whether it worked. I'm feeling kind of inadequate and reliant on the group confirmation thing.

Besides, it'd have to be cheaper than a Landmark course.

 

[Aaron Sice]

how people go about finding themselves is their own business.

understanding yourself better may or may not help you move on with your life, end a rut or grow personally.

i think everyone just need to back the f_k up a bit.

 

[tegosands]

Was surprised so see this post and enjoyed reading the thread.
I participated in the old EST & Forum seminars back in the 70's and the 80's.
I know some of the people involved back then are still working with Landmark these days. And I understand it has changed some what from those times.

For me it was probably the most powerful thing I ever participated in.
I was fortunate to have other family & friends also do some of their courses and seminars.
It changed the way I looked at things and gave me many more tools with which to work with. It opened me up to opportunities and choices in life.

It is not a cult....though I agree with Bird Dog and others that many fresh graduates tend to be a bit over the top with enthusiasim.

I reflect sometimes on how life would have been if I had not had had this opportunity back so long ago.

Go do it, if you feel so inclined...the water is fine!

 

[WinstonWolfe]

how people go about finding themselves is their own business.

and Landmark's business....

 

[WinstonWolfe]

I participated in the old EST & Forum seminars back in the 70's and the 80's.

Do you still say "this is it"

 

[Aaron Sice]

and Landmark's business....

....what's your point....?

 

[WinstonWolfe]

....what's your point....?

1. it's a for profit business marketing a 'product' that impacts on people's beliefs about life meaning......it therefore is not immune from being analysed critically like any investment or product.

2. the OP asked for views and expressed concerns about it being cult like in effect. I've read a fair whack of the literature Landmark state the course is based on, and watched several people go through the program. I still see several of these people years later.

Others have talked of how Landmark has been a positive experience for them.....Here's the story of two I know well.

-------------------------------------

I've known X for 8 years. She attended Landmark in 2007 hoping to improve her small business and family relationships. I knew her issues well, and suggested before she did Landmark she might alternatively consider spending the money on a specialist accountant, lawyer, and business consultant specializing in her industry, in the view of elucidating her business's potential. It was obvious to me the business would not improve its revenue or profit, or reduce manhour requirements.

X didn't have the free cash flow that justified risking ~$500 on an investment in Landmark. She has 3 kids, one with special needs, and another with behavioral issues. Her husband was at serious risk of being made redundant and his health was suffering due to high stress at work.

Landmark staff convinced her the course could only help improve her business and family dynamics. I felt this was unjustified as they had little to no insight into either. X did the course and was immediately an enthusiastic convert, so much so that she convinced me to go along to an info night, where I spoke at length with two of the staff. X had been identified by Landmark staff as an asset, and was fast tracked into the marketing machine, and follow up courses. For around 12 mths she was investing time and energy in marketing the course to others, including several staff in one of the clinics I worked at.

To cut a long story short, family issues worsened, and were compounded by X running herself into the ground after investing another 15k and 60 hours a week into the business. Her health issues escalated (takeaway meals for the family, very unhealthy weight gain by X and her children, X required thyroid medication). The youngest still had special needs that were going unmet due to financial lack.

As a health professional and friend of both her and her GP, my view on her life issues was more privileged than the Landmark staff concerned themselves with. Nevertheless, X was desperate to hold to the 'glass half full and soon to be overflowing' mindset...and she would grasp at anything that propped that up. X's GP and I felt Landmark exacerbated in X an irrational and unconstructive approach to her issues.

In my view, in addition to X spending her money on the above business professionals, she would have been better investing that time and money with a highly trained and experienced psychologist who cared enough to become familiar with X's life and mindset.....and more skillfully and effectively help X re-prioritize and deal effectively with her issues.

----------------------------------------------

I've known Y since the mid 90s. X recruited him into a Landmark course soon after she did hers. Lots of people think he hasn't tapped his full potential. Handsome 30 something single guy, smart, sensitive, personable, though stuck in a middle management job that seems to leave him a little flat and easily tired. He did the course, found it interesting, and the group dynamic effect was to encourage him to get more out of life, aim higher, take some risks, etc etc. Several months later, Y had some issues with his balance which he saw me for. I did some tests and wrote a letter to his GP. A brain scan revealed a non malignant tumor putting pressure on surrounding nerve tracts.

Y's case demonstrates that often there are legitimate physiological signals people get from their bodies, that inhibit them from more actively pursuing what others' value.

 

[Perp]

I’m not going to go on defending Landmark as quite frankly, I don’t need to and neither should you.

True.

I just would be disappointed if anybody is put off by statements in this thread which I perceive as misguided or simply incorrect. So for the record, I'd like to simply state that:

1) Landmark doesn't give answers; it simply guides you as to which questions it might be helpful for you to answer for yourself. It's stressed again and again that there are no right or wrong answers (in the domain of life's meaning and your identity).

2) It is not about spirituality; it's about psychology. I don't believe there is anything in the course that is contrary to religious beliefs, except if you believe that life has a particular meaning. Even if you believe this, I think you'd still get a lot out of the course, in terms of tools for aligning your life with your existing beliefs about life's meaning.

3) It's definitely not a substitute for therapy for people with mental/emotional problems, but does improve emotional intelligence.

4) Landmark Education has nothing to do with NLP, "abundance" mindset, "Law of Attraction", etc. In fact, many of its principles are in direct opposition, focusing on personal responsibility rather than just mindlessly "wanting" and "believing enough". There is very little talk about material success; it focuses almost entirely on happiness and relationships.

5) It's true that doing Landmark won't prevent you from falling ill, going senile, or free you from a wheelchair. (Though I'm not sure why anybody would think that it did. )

6) Some people who do Landmark get extremely enthusiastic and are too aggressive in pushing others to do it. Australians don't generally respond well to that approach - myself included! (I would have done the course sooner if not for this. But that's OK!) It's not a cult and there's no unwanted intrusion into your life, or need to reveal any personal information that you're not willing to share. Some people voluntarily immerse themselves in Landmark, and good for them. Personally, I think Landmark is about tools for making a meaningful and happy life, and to get overly immersed in Landmark would be to focus on the tools rather than using the tools in your life, but each to their own; perhaps what some people need is to immerse themselves in "Landmark world" for a while.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

I just would be disappointed if anybody is put off by statements in this thread which I perceive as misguided or simply incorrect.

Perp, earlier you affirmed your forum reputation as exceptionally rational, the inference being the majority are less rational than you. If you are able to recognize this, then why can't a supposedly nurturing and responsible corporation like Landmark? Why can't Landmark tune their marketing to a target market less rational than you, less likely to be seeking solutions to problems Landmark strategies cannot resolve as well as health professionals working one on one might?

Why does Landmark instead promote their product as a potential cure for the life complications of pretty much a random sample of 300 group event attendees? Why does their advertising hyperbole make such generalist, unqualified, and unlimited statements as:

"The Landmark Forum is specifically designed to bring about positive and permanent shifts in the quality of your life. These shifts are the direct cause for a new and unique kind of freedom and power—the freedom to be absolutely at ease no matter what the circumstance, the power to be in action effectively in those areas that are important to you."

"Experience a positive, permanent shift in the quality of your life.
Redefine the very nature of what's possible.
Create a future of your own design"

Anyone educated to a high level in the behavioral sciences has no excuse for not knowing the psychoemotional state of a random sample of people likely to respond to such hyperbole. I can only surmise Landmark's profit motive conflicts with the professional ethics of its management.

There's nothing 'misguided' or 'simply incorrect' in the anecdotes I have supplied. And I'd ask you to contemplate more mindfully and emotionally detached, your motive in this thread to present Landmark only in a positive light, and deride anything different. If that is part of the skill set Landmark teach, and is so fresh in your mind, then I feel vindicated.

That you have chosen not to rationally and impartially accept the very real life experiences of the two Landmark attendees I mention, speaks volumes. It says that, rather than accept Landmark causes a range of outcomes, that you have a pressing need to justify to yourself and others, your decision to spend $600 and the time and energy on the course was based on the most superior rationality. And now, via your overt derisive stance against my perspective, you are cognitively reinforcing that Landmark "needs" to be everything you perceived it would be, and nothing that you didn't.

Can I suggest that currently you are emotionally invested in the Landmark process more than you will be in 4-6 weeks.....and that you reconsider then, whether your response today was warranted.

 

[Perp]

You're right, WW.

 

[Aaron Sice]

while they're very touching stories WW - honestly - just because Landmark is linked to both does not mean it doesn't help people, or that landmark had anything to do with the inherent failure of an obviously proven system.

If i did landmark, i'd be in the same situation as Friend X. why? time poor. you can't generate time. Landmark isn't going to help you generate time. She needed to delegate her other responsibilities - if she could or not, is, again, not a Landmark fault.

Friend Y didn't get a tumour from Landmark - and you're not saying he did - but without the drive learned, he would not have been on the path that allowed him to find it....

I know you're a smart bloke, but it just seems like you've put 2 and 2 together and got 5 somehow.

I'm not affiliated with Landmark in any way. But your argument for NOT doing still doesn't stack up...and to be honest, probably never will.

But that's just as much heresay as what i'm protesting against.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Aaron, my issue with Landmark is the way it promotes itself as a universal escape vehicle from the discontent the majority of humanity suffer.

The company brands itself as a responsible corporation designed and run by health professionals. It leverages off the trust people put in the compassion and professional ethics of the health professions and science.

However, rather than behave as health professionals, it prioritizes profits by not screening potential clients and their personal issues.

Further, as intelligent educated health professionals, Landmark management have no excuse not to understand the significant opportunity cost of the course fee for an average income earner.

Regarding your interpretation of friend X and Y, Landmark didn't help them deal effectively with their issues. In fact it did the opposite, and therefore compounded the adversity. If you haven't done a large group course like this before Aaron, you may be surprised that most attendees carry similar heavy burdens. People don't part with $600 to be helped with trivial issues. Not every attendee has all their ducks lined up like Perp.

As I have stated earlier, yes Landmark may help some attendees by opening their minds to a previously unexplored realm of introspection. However, I uphold that it falls well short of what it promotes itself as.

It is easy to turn around and say X's and Y's problems aren't Landmark's problem, or couldn't be helped by Landmark. You are absolutely right, but Landmark didn't know what X and Y's problems were before signing them up. They just say, whatever's going on, we think our product will help you, and if it doesn't that was your fault for misinterpreting our promotional material, and what did you expect when you were one of 300 people sitting in a room for a weekend?