Marcia Langton - A leading aboriginal scholar

[Sheryn]

On ABC Breakfast this morning I heard Marcia speak about her observations that the current welfare system encourages a sense of entitlement among some aboriginals and that the same section think the state should look after them.

Some feel they don't need to compete or send their kids to school as there is no job for them an yet we hear from employer supervisors the aboriginal employees just need to turn up to work each day and learn the job as they do it.

As we travel around Oz I see many examples similar to Marcia's observations. Change has to start from within IMHO And I wish her well as there is a long hard road to go to change some people's thinking.


Regards
Sheryn

 

[BayView]

On ABC Breakfast this morning I heard Marcia speak about her observations that the current welfare system encourages a sense of entitlement among some aboriginals and that the same section think the state should look after them.

Some feel they don't need to compete or send their kids to school as there is no job for them an yet we hear from employer supervisors the aboriginal employees just need to turn up to work each day and learn the job as they do it.

As we travel around Oz I see many examples similar to Marcia's observations. Change has to start from within IMHO And I wish her well as there is a long hard road to go to change some people's thinking.


Regards
Sheryn

Agree totally.

What I have observed from years of living in the same town as them as a young'un is there just doesn't seem to be any sort of vibe of pride;

Lots of resentment though towards whitey, though.

 

[Sunfish]

On ABC630 they gave Gracelyn Smallwood the right of reply. It was a classic "don't touch our benefits" rant in which she slammed Langdon and Pearson as turncoats and something like "silver-tail academics".

Sadly in this age of pc I must refrain from any comment on Ms Smallwood.

Bayview, I have lived with them all my life and many have a pathological hatred of whites. I just tried to go further, but I can't say more.

 

[BayView]

Bayview, I have lived with them all my life and many have a pathological hatred of whites. I just tried to go further, but I can't say more.

Yeah, look; it's sad, because there is so much talent and potential, and people do give em' a go if they show aptitude and the right attitude.

But then; that applies to all, too.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

I don't the problem is Aboriginality. I think the problem is poverty.

 

[Aaron Sice]

I don't the problem is Aboriginality. I think the problem is poverty.

you would be surprised how much one entangles the other - you've presented a chicken/egg argument.

plenty of poor white folk making a sweet pain-in-the-**** of themselves to everyone in society too, yet they're not viewed with the same disdain and hopelessness as those of aboriginal descent.

when you see 45yo men limping barefoot down the road at 11am on a Thursday with seven school age kids tailing him in various states of repair and dress, and he's got a black painted coke bottle jammed under one nostril....you have to wonder why the cops did nothing about it when they drove past 90 seconds ago....

....yet thay'll happily fine me $800 for allowing my 5 yo to "ride up front with dad" on his birthday.....

 

[FormerLurker]

you would be surprised how much one entangles the other - you've presented a chicken/egg argument.

plenty of poor white folk making a sweet pain-in-the-**** of themselves to everyone in society too, yet they're not viewed with the same disdain and hopelessness as those of aboriginal descent.

when you see 45yo men limping barefoot down the road at 11am on a Thursday with seven school age kids tailing him in various states of repair and dress, and he's got a black painted coke bottle jammed under one nostril....you have to wonder why the cops did nothing about it when they drove past 90 seconds ago....

....yet thay'll happily fine me $800 for allowing my 5 yo to "ride up front with dad" on his birthday.....

Path of least resistance mate - You'll pay the fine without fuss because to contest is a pain in the **** and they'll avoid him and his situation because it's a mountain of paperwork with small chance of making a difference. Not sure if police have a fine quota like parking inspectors but they may also be practicing in case one is brought in.

 

[Risky Business]

Bayview, I have lived with them all my life and many have a pathological hatred of whites. I just tried to go further, but I can't say more.

By any chance did you live in the vicinity of Yarrabah? It sounds familiar.

 

[Sunfish]

By any chance did you live in the vicinity of Yarrabah? It sounds familiar.

No. Palm Is. As it is an island with strict alcohol laws [the Mayor has just been caught bootlegging booze] the drunks and socially irresponsible stay on the mainland 'till their money runs out, living in the city parks. The community can, and does, ban trouble makers without a thought about their welfare. That's whities' problem.

Spend a couple of weeks in Cooktown. Being a smaller community your education will be quick and easy.

 

[BayView]

when you see 45yo men limping barefoot down the road at 11am on a Thursday with seven school age kids tailing him in various states of repair and dress, and he's got a black painted coke bottle jammed under one nostril....you have to wonder why the cops did nothing about it when they drove past 90 seconds ago....

Because it'd just get slammed with the "R" tag, or the "D" tag, or both..

Thought I'd get my post in before this thread gets closed in about 3 more posts, I reckon.

 

[buster]

I don't the problem is Aboriginality. I think the problem is poverty.

nothing to do with poverty, it is atitude, known some who have won large amounts with lotto,enough to set themselves for life , blow the lot in 12 months, walk into a car yard and say I will have that one, that one, and that one, buy cars for all the relies and any-one else he wanted to. By world standards their income is in the top quartile.

 

[Macca]

On ABC Breakfast this morning I heard Marcia speak about her observations that the current welfare system encourages a sense of entitlement among some aboriginals and that the same section think the state should look after them.

Some feel they don't need to compete or send their kids to school as there is no job for them an yet we hear from employer supervisors the aboriginal employees just need to turn up to work each day and learn the job as they do it.

As we travel around Oz I see many examples similar to Marcia's observations. Change has to start from within IMHO And I wish her well as there is a long hard road to go to change some people's thinking.


Regards
Sheryn

I attach a link to a group of Aboriginals that we met when on our last tour through Cape York. I found them quite inspiring as they have started this tour company without any assistance from ATSIC. Their motivation is to provide employment for their extended family now and for the future generations.

In their words, "if we can do it then there are heaps of others who can do the same if they want to get out of bed"

http://www.bamaway.com.au/Walker.aspx

 

[cimbom]

nothing to do with poverty, it is atitude, known some who have won large amounts with lotto,enough to set themselves for life , blow the lot in 12 months, walk into a car yard and say I will have that one, that one, and that one, buy cars for all the relies and any-one else he wanted to. By world standards their income is in the top quartile.

Is this meant to be a joke? You know that many people of the same ethnic background who have all won the lottery and spent it in the same way that you can make a generalised statement? Keeping in mind that the odds of winning are like 1 in 3 million or something crazy like that and also that "white"
people are equally likely to spend money in such a way.

I get really disappointed when I read these kind of statements from people who I would assume would be above such petty divisive comments.

Also, basic general knowledge/common sense would tell you that income is irrelevant - it's the cost of living that matters. A single person on Centrelink payments (for example) could potentially live like a king for that money in many third world countries. They would be in a lot of trouble in cities with a high cost of living though.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

The problem for many people (including a lot of Aboriginals) is that poverty is a symptom of the underlying problem: that they aren't equipped to function within Australian society as it currently stands. This is a cyclic thing, if your parents (and other role models) didn't expect you to attend school, didn't care if you stole, vandalised and got into fights, beat the snot out of you, abused alcohol and other substances, never worked and blamed others, then that's all you know. If you can't function in society, you will be marginalised (regardless of your colour or background).

There's no point expecting such people to magically stand up, get jobs and become smart, law abiding citizens.

I grew up with quite a few such people. From what I saw, there were several factors in common:
1) They genuinely believed that their lives were crap, and that people who were perceived to have the power were to blame. For Aboriginals, that was white people. For white people, that was rich people.
2) They had little or no life skills. They couldn't open a bank account or pay a bill without help. They saw money as a means to an immediate end, and were completely used to being broke most of the time. They didn't understand the value of education, or think about the future.
3) They frequently abused substances - tobacco, alcohol, other stuff too. For them it was simply a method to feel good.
4) They engaged in criminal behaviours much more frequently, and had little care for consequences. When caught, they simply blamed others.

The problem is that to ACTUALLY FIX THE PROBLEM, a lot of time and resources needs to be spent in breaking through the cycle of poverty. People need to be taught life skills, and given help in developing the mental capacity needed to function socially. There are many groups that try to do this, but it's a losing battle.

 

[BayView]

The problem for many people (including a lot of Aboriginals) is that poverty is a symptom of the underlying problem: that they aren't equipped to function within Australian society as it currently stands. This is a cyclic thing, if your parents (and other role models) didn't expect you to attend school, didn't care if you stole, vandalised and got into fights, beat the snot out of you, abused alcohol and other substances, never worked and blamed others, then that's all you know.

I agree, but there are programs all over the Country to help.

Help can be offered, but also has to be accepted and implemented by the helpees.

Think back to the last time you offered any of your closer not-so-well-off family and/or acquaintances some financial advice and what the outcome was/has been.

There is now an absolute saturation of indigenous everything on the airwaves and the teev, the news etc.

You would have to have been living under a rock for the last 30 years not to see the level of awareness and concern and support now.

Sorry, but it's time to stand up, be proud, and get on with it.

Some have of course, but not enough.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

BayView - you're absolutely correct.

The reason so many programs don't work well is because people don't want to be told what to do.

The only way the problem could be conclusively solved would be to remove children and place them in more stable families. This is difficult and stressful for the children and families involved, and is unlikely to happen.

 

[weg]

Good post VYB.

It doesn't matter what colour/race you are. The issues and the race/colour should remain separate wherever possible, or you compound the problems and end up focusing on the wrong things, creating even more problems.

Where Aboriginal health and social problems are DIRE, intervention is a responsibility of the governments (you just can't continue to give out welfare to have it misused, as a 'head in the sand' approach), just as it is with any other group.

If it means converting welfare benefits into vouchers, incentive programs, well so be it.

Once you have health and wellbeing improve, pride and purpose return.

What I think is insulting is the lip service given, from not only governments but by Aboriginal academics as well, all the while little 'real' action is taken (for fear of offending anyone).

I say give some of the power of decision making to Aboriginals who demonstrate they really do want to make a difference.

 

[BayView]

The only way the problem could be conclusively solved would be to remove children and place them in more stable families. This is difficult and stressful for the children and families involved, and is unlikely to happen.

"Stolen" generation x 2?

 

[cimbom]

1) They genuinely believed that their lives were crap, and that people who were perceived to have the power were to blame. For Aboriginals, that was white people. For white people, that was rich people.

I'm not sure that I'm interpreting this property - are you saying that racism and classism don't exist in Australia and that everyone has the same access to "power"?

4) They engaged in criminal behaviours much more frequently, and had little care for consequences. When caught, they simply blamed others.

Some engage in criminal conduct, yes, as do people from all groups but they are also heavily overpoliced (and face more severe consequences for the same offence) compared to "white" people.

Remember the case where the young indigenous schoolboy got charged and held in custody for receiving a stolen Freddo chocolate? The case where a teenage boy was charged for taking a few coins from a public telephone that were left behind by someone else? The young man who was sent to jail for stealing a $3 packet of biscuits? I used to work in retail when I was at school and I can't remember anyone getting convicted because of petty shoplifting. The most they would get is a warning and that's it.

The problem is that to ACTUALLY FIX THE PROBLEM, a lot of time and resources needs to be spent in breaking through the cycle of poverty. People need to be taught life skills, and given help in developing the mental capacity needed to function socially. There are many groups that try to do this, but it's a losing battle.

They need autonomy and independence. They need to be able to control things at the local level. They don't need some white people who are divorced from the reality of their everyday lives to argue about what must be done to "help" them. Do you realise how condenscending that is? People are so quick to cry "nanny state!" when any initiatives, no matter how small, are introduced that would have some impact on their lives yet they don't bat an eyelid at applying this perspective to others.

The only way the problem could be conclusively solved would be to remove children and place them in more stable families. This is difficult and stressful for the children and families involved, and is unlikely to happen.

Yep, that's the only way. It was so successful in the past too.

We all know that white people don't mistreat or neglect their kids, they don't commit any offences, don't drink or smoke or gamble or partake in any other "ills" at all.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

I'm not sure that I'm interpreting this property - are you saying that racism and classism don't exist in Australia and that everyone has the same access to "power"?

No. Not all all, and I've no idea why you would think that.

What I am saying is that in my experience, people who live in difficult circumstances have a tendency to blame, rather than take responsibility.

Some engage in criminal conduct, yes, as do people from all groups but they are also heavily overpoliced (and face more severe consequences for the same offence) compared to "white" people.

Remember the case where the young indigenous schoolboy got charged and held in custody for receiving a stolen Freddo chocolate? The case where a teenage boy was charged for taking a few coins from a public telephone that were left behind by someone else? The young man who was sent to jail for stealing a $3 packet of biscuits? I used to work in retail when I was at school and I can't remember anyone getting convicted because of petty shoplifting. The most they would get is a warning and that's it.

I clearly remember the case of the stolen biscuits. The kid was sent down for 12 months because it was the third conviction in a relatively short time period, and he was known as a serial thief. This is not over-policing, other penalties and options had been tried and all had failed.

They need autonomy and independence. They need to be able to control things at the local level. They don't need some white people who are divorced from the reality of their everyday lives to argue about what must be done to "help" them. Do you realise how condenscending that is? People are so quick to cry "nanny state!" when any initiatives, no matter how small, are introduced that would have some impact on their lives yet they don't bat an eyelid at applying this perspective to others.

Autonomy and independence is what a lot of people in difficult circumstances have now, and it's not helping them one bit. Education, training and role modeling are what is required.

Yep, that's the only way. It was so successful in the past too.

In the past it was done for very different reasons. That said, do some googling about the education, health and wealth of Aboriginal children taken during the stolen generation and compare it to those who weren't taken.

We all know that white people don't mistreat or neglect their kids, they don't commit any offences, don't drink or smoke or gamble or partake in any other "ills" at all.

Not sure what you're on about. My whole point is that the problems aren't to do with race, they are to do with poverty and social marginalisation.

By suggesting these problems are race-related you are implying that people can't be helped. And that is simply not true.