welfare vs frugal

[kathryn d]

I came across this blog a few days ago.
It is written by an American in 2005, and I found it interesting.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1358150/posts


I don't agree with everything.

I don't think McDonald's would sell older burgers for 10c, instead of chucking them. It would more frugal to make everything a little bit slower, as needed.

When I was growing up, if something broke, like a tv, it was repaired. All the parts were generally worth replacing. The newer tvs are tossed out.
Everything is so disposable.

If everyone became frugal overnight, it would cause an economic disaster.
Overtime, it would improve the economy.Bankruptcies would be decreased, with their domino effect. Different types of businesses would be created to replace others.

What would happen if everyone lived within their means?
If more parents decided one of them should stay at home.
How would it change the need for rentals, or even the type of rentals?

What would happen if cheap oversea products were so heavily taxed, it became better to start producing the products here. So instead of sending all the raw materials for jam away, they made it here, for example.

The country has the population to fill these factory jobs.

What happened before welfare was introduced?
Families and neighbours helped each other. Charities for the needy.
Some people fell thru the cracks. Society isn't perfect.

I didn't start this thread as a welfare is needed because....
What if it was abolished for whatever reason.It could be that everything is slowly phased out, leaving the genuine needy.

If we were really serious about doing something about the drug addicts, alcoholics help could be given. A rehab center, giving councelling, could also allow them to work part time at a factory. Part of their wages would cover the therapy costs. When they no longer need rehab, they can continue onto to other factories.
Of course, the country would need to really crack down on drug trafficking, and not give slap on the hand sentences.

Single parents on welfare don't generally need a house. What if an apartment building (not a slum) was built. It would be close to where work is available (factories, and the spin off jobs).
Onsite daycare centers offering shift work hours, to accommodate workers.
Basic apts. Murphy beds in the loungeroom, for the parent to sleep.
Schools could be close. Maybe the parents could volunteer to work at the daycare and recieve a discount.


Imagine if your family had 2 adults and 2 kids. Your sister and her husband and their 3 kids came to stay with you. How long would you put up with them staying in your house, eating your food, and not looking for a job, before you gave them an ultimatum to get off their butt and start looking. ... or creating a job for themselves?

One of our properties has 6 apple trees on it. They are not store quality, because they were probably planted when the house was built in 1887.
Every year we put an ad on Kijiji (Gumtree equivalent) stating to come and get them for free. People take the apples for deer baiting, animal feed, and for their own personal use.
It's good for us, keeping the rotting fruit off the ground...and they get some benefit from it.

It would be nice if others would offer their unused fruit / vegetables for gleaning.

Without getting in the "this won't work because"...what other constructive solutions can you offer?

 

[china]

So are you saying that we should remove welfare systems and replace it with voluntary acts of kindness and charity?

Society in 2012 is more disconnected than ever before. Often we do not know our neighbours or only interact with close colleagues via email and facebook. I have seen two staff members sitting in a room having a meeting but one of them texted/SMSed the other as a response. When we walk down the streets, we try to avoid eye contact. I remember Australia in the 80s and generally, even in Chatswood, Sydney - we often said g'day to strangers. Now we are more concerned that the person wearing a hajib may attack us.

Clearly, the culture of the world has changed a lot and it is nowhere as warm and loving as it used to be. I think the dollar is worshipped much more and it is the dollar which can save most scenarios whether it be the homeless, the loveless or the foodless.

 

[geoffw]

So are you saying that we should remove welfare systems and replace it with voluntary acts of kindness and charity?

Where did that come from? That's not what Kathryn said. And that's not what the linked article said.

It's more like supplementing welfare.

 

[china]

Where did that come from? That's not what Kathryn said. And that's not what the linked article said.

It's more like supplementing welfare.

If we supplement enough, we can perhaps remove it or make it redundant?

 

[kathryn d]

I think we need to get people back to work, and providing for their own families.

When given the chance,I think most people want to be self sufficient.

What if a town was built with 4 factories, employing 300 in each.
What if they employed workers who are currently on welfare.

Accommodation required to house 1200 people would be needed.
Thats a lot of apts. What if they used people currently on welfare to help build these apartments. If there isn't enough skilled workers, they could train some of them. (that's a whole other topic..easily handled)

These 1200 apts each have a single parent, who used to be on welfare. Now they work for scale wage, instead of being on welfare.They pay taxes. They live within their means. They may pay a lower rent, because they work in the factory which owns ( or co-owns) the apt building.

Some factory jobs can use disabled people. If the job can be done sitting down, being in a wheelchair wouldn't be an issue.
They could work on the floor, or in the company cafeteria as cashier or prep work in the kitchen.

What if this was replicated everywhere. Welfare was no longer seen as a way "to do nothing", but a requirement to work and live in certain areas.
In some ways socialism?
Voluntarily of course. If you had family or friends willing to take care of you until a conventional job was found, that is your choice. You just wouldn't get any welfare payments.

With so many people working for scale wages, it could naturally slow down the increase in wages for other companies.Not always a bad thing.

 

[china]

These are good thoughts kathryn. I think society needs to move in the spirit of your suggestions, although, in practice, I am not sure how employers would like employing people on welfare or in wheelchairs.

I think the kiva microloan program which is sponsored by some members of this forum is a good example of how the average person can help others avoid requiring state sponsored welfare.

 

[sanj]

Unfortunately while your post does have some interesting thoughts a lot of the ideas are totally outdated and have been proven to be so. Major ptotectionist policies like high taxes on all imports and ideas like entire buildings only housing those on welfare and have been tried and failed miserably. Think of the slums you mentioned, once upon a time they were new and full of hope.

An entire town built just for those on welfare to work in would be a disaster. Who would run the businesses and ancilliary services?

 

[kathryn d]

I think if companies could get workers for basic wage, and know they are willing to work, they would be beating a line to grab them.

For example, lets use a jam factory:
Factory A-
utilises former welfare recipients, and provides them with accommodation (apt buildings).
They are paid basic wage. For example $13 hr.
Jam sells for $1.79 bottle

Factory B-
employs general workers, but they demand $15.60 hr, because that is what all the other factories are paying in the area.
Their jam sells for $2.15 bottle.

Which factory (taste being equal) is probably going to sell more bottles?


The government can make changes to the tenancy act. When it is part of a company perk, when you lose your job, you lose the accommodation.
Incentive to show up at work. Any accrued vacation pay, can be used to to repair any damage to the apt unit.The employers will need to be able to fire lazy workers. People here at the Roadhouse are fired one day, and gone the next.(acommodation & meals provided in their employment)

Factory A would be required (or encouraged) to accept disabled workers, as there is always something they can do. Whether it be job share, and apt share, that is an option.

If factory B wants to stay competive, they are going to need to streamline their operation. Be more conscious of waste. Reduce, reuse, recyle etc.

Regular businesses would be running them. I'm talking about the factory workers, not management.
I worked in a factory (as a laborer) for 20 years. I do have some practical experience in what i am speaking if.


Sanj,
These would not be welfare buildings. These would be working people buildings.
Slums seem to be where no one is actually working.
Idealist...yes.
Would it happen overnight.....no
It may take a generation.
Australia has a habit of releasing land and building neighbourhoods.
I can't see how it would be much different...except it would be more factory oriented, to supply the country with the products with what they want.

I certainly know I don't have all the answers, but I think I do have some great ideas of how to make the country/world a bit better.

 

[sanj]

I think if companies could get workers for basic wage, and know they are willing to work, they would be beating a line to grab them.

For example, lets use a jam factory:
Factory A-
utilises former welfare recipients, and provides them with accommodation (apt buildings).
They are paid basic wage. For example $13 hr.
Jam sells for $1.79 bottle

Factory B-
employs general workers, but they demand $15.60 hr, because that is what all the other factories are paying in the area.
Their jam sells for $2.15 bottle.

Which factory (taste being equal) is probably going to sell more bottles?


The government can make changes to the tenancy act. When it is part of a company perk, when you lose your job, you lose the accommodation.
Incentive to show up at work. Any accrued vacation pay, can be used to to repair any damage to the apt unit.The employers will need to be able to fire lazy workers. People here at the Roadhouse are fired one day, and gone the next.(acommodation & meals provided in their employment)

Factory A would be required (or encouraged) to accept disabled workers, as there is always something they can do. Whether it be job share, and apt share, that is an option.

If factory B wants to stay competive, they are going to need to streamline their operation. Be more conscious of waste. Reduce, reuse, recyle etc.

Regular businesses would be running them. I'm talking about the factory workers, not management.
I worked in a factory (as a laborer) for 20 years. I do have some practical experience in what i am speaking if.


Sanj,
These would not be welfare buildings. These would be working people buildings.
Slums seem to be where no one is actually working.
Idealist...yes.
Would it happen overnight.....no
It may take a generation.
Australia has a habit of releasing land and building neighbourhoods.
I can't see how it would be much different...except it would be more factory oriented, to supply the country with the products with what they want.

I certainly know I don't have all the answers, but I think I do have some great ideas of how to make the country/world a bit better.

you arent making sense. are they current welfare recipients or past welfare recipients?

how would the companies "know" they are willing to work? now you're saying company would also provide them with accommodation, in a town that has to be purpose built for this.

1)initially i assume the govt would havre to build the town, put in the services etc.

2)then, the govt would have to set up all the ancilliary services and mnake it attractive enough for people to live there to provide those services

3) go out to tender for companies to build a factory in this currently barren town, advertising access to current welfare recipients in this country for staff

4) as part of this process, companies would have to also build accommodation for 300 staff in this town, an extremely expensive proposition in australia, even if land is given free

5) companies would want some sort of guarantee about reliability of staff, after all they are committing tens of millions of dollars to this idea at a minimum

6)again, the company would have issues getting experienced staff to oversee this entirely untrained an inexperienced group, you are going to need your experienced managers, QA and QC, logistics (especially since this is a currently unserviced town that would have to bring in absloutely everything for production)

7) these experienced staff would demand accommodation (especially since everyone else is getting it) as well as higher wages to make up for living in the middle of nowhere

8) all of a sudden what was meant to be a cheaper and enticing opportunity for these companies is looking like a bit of a nightmare.

9) we havent even come to the commercial side, often with projects like these a business will try to get some kind of precommitments from customers or at least LOI, especially in order to get finance for the construction of not only the factory but 300 apartments. put yourself in the shoes of a prospective customer here, there are so many loose ends, i would certainly not be committing to buying anything here until i see progress and proof of the company's ability to deliver


sorry but your idea will not work, not in a million years imo. you may have experience of working in a factory but you are not looking at the commercial realities imo, let alone the social ones.

imagine a company going to a bank to get finance to build 300 apartments in a town with (at the moment) absolutely nothing, to take a punt on a manufacturing operation with largely inexperienced staff. unless you are talking an absolutely massive company or the govt is going to underwrite this (i dont see that happening) then there is no way it will happen.

 

[joanmc]

There are a lot of great ideas there Kathryn.
the only thing the blogger forgets about is unfortunately the most important: Human Nature. He premise only works where everyone thinks the same way he does.
It would be great if everyone wanted to work and get ahead but sadly many do not. Apathy is rife and I think the biggest hiccup for these types of plans.

 

[The Y-man]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-waste-8bn-of-food-yearly-20121223-2btby.html

The Y-man

 

[kathryn d]

you arent making sense. are they current welfare recipients or past welfare recipients?These would be welfare recipients looking for work, because they have no choice. The welfare is slowly being changed, and no more free rides. As soon as they move into their apt and start work at the factory, they are no longer a burden on the taxpayer.They are actually now productive taxpayers.

how would the companies "know" they are willing to work? now you're saying company would also provide them with accommodation, in a town that has to be purpose built for this.If they don't work, they are fired, and they move out of the apt building

1)initially i assume the govt would havre to build the town, put in the services etc. the government can offer incentives, but not own the factory or apts.

2)then, the govt would have to set up all the ancilliary services and mnake it attractive enough for people to live there to provide those servicesI'm not talking of opening factories in the middle of no where. It may be an old abndoned factory refurbished, or bulldozed and built on the land. Apt buildings can be close by for walking, or have a train station/ bus services. Nothing is written in stone, and I'm sure smarter people than I can come up with the logistics

3) go out to tender for companies to build a factory in this currently barren town, advertising access to current welfare recipients in this country for staffThe starting process would be slow. I eluded to how cheaper labor could be used in my second post. With any construction, there are certain jobs you really need expertise. But there are also other jobs, that can be done with training. Maybe this is the first step.Train some welfare workers. They will be able to continue onto other properties after they finish up with one. A basic apt building style can be used repeatedly. The factory I worked at took up very little space, employed 400 people, and we have plenty of apt building located around the area. It is also within walking distance to the center of the town.


4) as part of this process, companies would have to also build accommodation for 300 staff in this town, an extremely expensive proposition in australia, even if land is given freenothing needs to be given for free.If a steady source of cheaper labor (former welfare recipients) is used, they will utilise this. The 300 regular staff can buy the houses or apts that former welfare recipients are no longer permitted to live in. There will be a balancing act, and I don't have all the answers.

5) companies would want some sort of guarantee about reliability of staff, after all they are committing tens of millions of dollars to this idea at a minimumWell, if they don't work, they is a steady supply available. It will take a while to go thru the welfare roll.

6)again, the company would have issues getting experienced staff to oversee this entirely untrained an inexperienced group, you are going to need your experienced managers, QA and QC, logistics (especially since this is a currently unserviced town that would have to bring in absloutely everything for production) This doesn't happen overnight. I'm sure there is plenty of university students who are interested in a job. You said it was an unserviced town, I didn't.

7) these experienced staff would demand accommodation (especially since everyone else is getting it) as well as higher wages to make up for living in the middle of nowhereagain, not in the middle of nowhere...

8) all of a sudden what was meant to be a cheaper and enticing opportunity for these companies is looking like a bit of a nightmare.start slow, work out the kinks. maybe each state can try their own version, and come up with better solutions

9) we havent even come to the commercial side, often with projects like these a business will try to get some kind of precommitments from customers or at least LOI, especially in order to get finance for the construction of not only the factory but 300 apartments. put yourself in the shoes of a prospective customer here, there are so many loose ends, i would certainly not be committing to buying anything here until i see progress and proof of the company's ability to deliver
government enticements work wonders.

sorry but your idea will not work, not in a million years imo. you may have experience of working in a factory but you are not looking at the commercial realities imo, let alone the social ones.maybe..but I have been a factory worker, and a rental home business person

imagine a company going to a bank to get finance to build 300 apartments in a town with (at the moment) absolutely nothing, to take a punt on a manufacturing operation with largely inexperienced staff. unless you are talking an absolutely massive company or the govt is going to underwrite this (i dont see that happening) then there is no way it will happen.

Hoepfully something useful can be seen in my ideas?

 

[mamie]

I've always wondered why people in government housing get equivalent housing to what low income workers would happily pay for.
Why not have gov housing set up as more of a communal thing - ie large kitchens, shared living areas, shared bathrooms etc. Since the waiting list is so long, they could even provide an option for those waiting for a house can say whether they would be happy to work in the kitchen or as a cleaner in the place. They would then get given a spot preferentially and paid for the work they do.
Of course you would need to fire them if they are not up to scratch, but this should help more people get a place to live in, should help them get work experience so that they can move onto something more productive and it should make the cost of government housing less expensive.
other jobs would be around maintaining the facility and government could even provide training to those who show promise.
you could reduce their welfare payments and take that money instead for their food. feeding them in the communal kitchens would allow food to be bought in bulk and also mean that their unfortunate kids will not go hungry.
and residents in this accommodation could earn rewards by behaving themselves - eg free small tv if you dont have any complaints against your name after 12 months of being a resident.

You could also expand this idea to 'upper classes' - as a society, it doesn't make sense why each house has a kitchen, each house has the same tools in the garage even though it only gets used once a year, etc. if society shares all these tools by making use of their community, we won't need to be so wasteful. kind of like an apartment block but have more shared spaces. you dont really need to be social about this either. you can still have private spaces, but allow them to be booked out for the times when you want to use them. (hmm maybe you can even make a business out of it. apartment block charging $50k-$100k units that just have bascially bedrooms. then pay a charge to use other shared rooms as needed??? though it would probably take society a while to get used to this idea. - how about start with just shared kitchens since this is not really considered a personal space and it isn't used for a long period of the day)

you could combine the above idea with Katheryn's working building and have anyone who cant find work elsewhere work in the building. if not at the same location, you can have them transported on a bus - very efficient form of transport.

as for the issue of employers not wanting these types of workers, it could be completely government owned and regulated.

 

[kathryn d]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-waste-8bn-of-food-yearly-20121223-2btby.html

The Y-man

Absolutley.
I can imagine Geoff W can share there is a lot of waste generated by food businesses.

Where I worked in a factory (not food) we were encouraged to give feedback on what improvements could be made to reduce, reuse and recycle.
A lot were integrated into the business.

There is not one business where improvements cannot be made.This can all save energy, resources, and unnecessary labor costs.

The same can be said in a home.
Without so much debt (living with your means) people can start spending money on wants.

In a business, these wants, could be called profits.

 

[sanj]

an idea with no practicality behind it is useful for a bit of debate and nothing else imo

 

[kathryn d]

an idea with no practicality behind it is useful for a bit of debate and nothing else imo

What do you suggest then...the status quo?
Eventually the system will break down.


Mamie,
Great ideas !
I think if you are going to be on welfare, and not work, you should expect to get a bit less than a worker.

My ideas are a more generous form of the "poor house" of the UK.
Yours have a bit of that built into it too, as you are providing meals, at a much reduced cost, because of bulk buying.

 

[MTR]

There are a lot of great ideas there Kathryn.
the only thing the blogger forgets about is unfortunately the most important: Human Nature. He premise only works where everyone thinks the same way he does.
It would be great if everyone wanted to work and get ahead but sadly many do not. Apathy is rife and I think the biggest hiccup for these types of plans.

Now what you said is spot on.

MTR

 

[kathryn d]

Here's a bit of a start..because the accommodation is already there.

At the moment backpackers do a lot of fruit / veggie picking.
Why backpackers?
Because the locals won't work.

If the requirement is that locals work when harvesting work is available, or welfare is cut off, what will happen?

They will either work, or move, or live with other family memebers...but benfits are cut off during this time.


If ablebodied people are living in an area with no job prospect, eventually they would be required to move to a "factory" area, or have benfits cut off.

I'm sure there are places where welfare recipients go to live, because there is a very little chance they will find work. Unless they become self sufficient, they would no longer have that choice but to move.

 

[china]

Absolutley.
I can imagine Geoff W can share there is a lot of waste generated by food businesses.

Where I worked in a factory (not food) we were encouraged to give feedback on what improvements could be made to reduce, reuse and recycle.
A lot were integrated into the business.

There is not one business where improvements cannot be made.This can all save energy, resources, and unnecessary labor costs.

The same can be said in a home.
Without so much debt (living with your means) people can start spending money on wants.

In a business, these wants, could be called profits.

As a single person, I am particularly guilty of food wastage. I have often purchased and fridged some vegetables with a view to cooking meals. However, often I feel too tired / lazy to cook or someone may ask me to eat out and then I have spoiled foodstuffs which I have to throw out. I don't like this wastage, and can see that when magnified across the entire population, the wastage can be used to feed whole third world countries.

 

[Truly Exotic]

As a single person, I am particularly guilty of food wastage. I have often purchased and fridged some vegetables with a view to cooking meals. However, often I feel too tired / lazy to cook or someone may ask me to eat out and then I have spoiled foodstuffs which I have to throw out. I don't like this wastage, and can see that when magnified across the entire population, the wastage can be used to feed whole third world countries.

It's also unfortunately an Australian cultural aspect, whether it be society, or a current generational thing,

Some of the reasons why people throw out perfectly good food at home or at a restaurant is absolutely disgusting,

If you really hated wastage , it would only very rarely happen. It's been months since I threw anything out, and it wasn't a good experience