My top 10 reasons as to why a world depression will not occur

1. The inevitable and unstoppable industrialisation of China


2. The inevitable and unstoppable industrialisation of India


China and India together - 2 Billion new capitalists!


3. Perfect Capital Mobility
The capacity, that did not exist in the 1930's, for very large amounts of money to move rapidly around the world


4. International institutions
The UN, IMF, World Bank, etc. These are all forums for international discussion that did not exist in the 1930's.


5. International communications / travel
Greatly improved since the 1930's


6. Lessons learnt from the past


7. Lender of Last Resort
To prevent a financial meltdown, the RBA, ECB, Bank of England, and US Federal Reserve (not to mention other central banks) could very well step in.


8. The nature of western societies
Now, more than ever we are consumer driven. We love to spend money and that is great for economic activity.


9. The public sector
Possible expansion of / or massive capital works (roads, hospitals, dams, etc) - which it could be argued are needed anyway.


10. The military
Possible expansion / possible use of martial law


If anyone wants to add to the list, be my guest....

M
 
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The Secret

If we start thinking more of abundance in place of recession/depression, amazing changes can occur.

How very true Sailor

When all is said and done, economics is the study of human behaviour.

But, alas, it is a two-edged sword. If enough people keep sprouting the kooky notion of a world depression - then it could very well become a reality.

Altered mindsets do lead to altered actions.

To all those catastrophisers out there (and I know there is a few of you) - familiarise yourself with a concept known as the Paradox of Thrift.

* * *

The paradox is the inconsistency between the apparently virtuous nature of household saving and the potentially undesirable consequences of such saving.

If most households decide to save a larger proportion of their incomes then they will consume less and this reduce expenditure will lower aggregate demand and so lead to lower levels of output and employment. Thus an increase in savings will reduce the level of national income (so yes, it is a slowdown in the economy).

However, thriftiness, or saving, is beneficial to the economy as it releases resources from the production of consumer goods to be used for producing "investment goods" (which for an economist, means "productive capacity").

However, if households (as a whole) save more than businesses plan to invest at a given level of national income, then this will cause the equilibrium level of national income to decline, therefore reducing also the actual amounts saved and invested.

* * *​


And there's your depression.

Well done catastrophisers.

M
 
Typo

Thought you started saying depression , not recession ...:)

See Change

Ta

I've edited it.

What can I say? Other than that depression is a foreign word in the modern economics vocabulary.

And while people still talk of recessions (since the last one was only 15 yrs ago), depressions are like monsters in the ocean.

In the western world they exist only on old maps and in fiction.

M
 
Another reason: Establishment of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation in USA. All balances under $100,000 are guaranteed. Banks are required to keep 8% of deposits on call. Result - vastly reduced risk of runs on banks.

- Dave99
 
Ultimately a depression is based on two things: economic collapse, and lack of confidence by employers, consumers, etc in economic institutions.

The fact is our economy is based on confidence.As others have said, modern laws and institutions (the FDIC, etc) mean that public confidence in our monetary systems is higher than before.

While I also believe in the industrialisation of India and China, there WILL be setbacks. That just means the normal cycle of recession and boom. There might even be bad ones resulting in double digit unemployment, flat property prices for years like we saw in the 90's, BUT I doubt it'll get to the 'bread lines' and widespread multiple families shoehorned into houses like we saw in the Depression.

Recessions CAN still happen. Witness Japan, though it also illustrates how important government intervention is. The US Fed has stated that they will throw money into the economy (helicopter drops) to reinflate the economy if it falters. In the same way as the 2001 recession in the US was less harsh than it could have been (because Greenspan took the lesson from prior crashes and dropped rates). Though one wonders what will happen to property prices if a recession hit and the central banks dropped rates again.....

In short, business as usual. Booms, busts and sometimes years of flat in between.
Alex
 
A counter view, mainly because I don't like words like 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable':

1. The inevitable and unstoppable industrialisation of China


2. The inevitable and unstoppable industrialisation of India

Even rapidly-growing newly industrialising countries can have recessions. For instance Singapore for a year or two in the late 1980s. However recessions in China or India may well have a global effect similar to how the poor health of the US economy retarded our growth in the early '80s.

Also note Japan's situation; after faster than average growth for about 4 decades and a bubble in the late 80s they stagnated for years afterwards.

Though I don't think it's very likely for China, countries can and do go backwards, eg some South American nations were very advanced for a while.

Even if India and China fuel a boom (much like Japan did for the US in the 1950s and 60s) this cannot continue for more than 30 years or so, so what happens then? It could be Africa and South America's turn, though it's probably only Brazil that is populous enough to become a major power.

3. Perfect Capital Mobility
The capacity, that did not exist in the 1930's, for very large amounts of money to move rapidly around the world


4. International institutions
The UN, IMF, World Bank, etc. These are all forums for international discussion that did not exist in the 1930's.


5. International communications / travel
Greatly improved since the 1930's

There is this view around that we are becoming/have become a more internationalised economy and before that we were a self-contained backwater with nothing to do with the rest of the world.

But this is exagerated; colonisation 200 - 300 years ago was an act of globalisation. As was convict transportation, exploration, spices and gold mining.

And for most of the 1800s, the Australian-born proportion of the population was less than it is now, and our annual immigration intake as a percentage of our population peaked in Calwell and Menzies' time and has never since been higher.

Meanwhile, though Whitlam, Fraser and Keating are thought today as formers and champions of multiculturalism, and Howard an opponent (or at least lukewarm), the facts show that Whitlam, Fraser and Keating were 'low migration' governments while Howard has presided over high migration (though proportionately still much lower, is more diverse, than during Calwell/Menzies).

I don't have the figures in front of me, but I suspect that Australia's export:GDP ratio has been higher in the past than it is now. Since 1788, Australia was built on foreign capital while we exported raw materials to the world.

And the fact that there was a World War I and soon after a World War II indicate that much of the elements of globalisation were in place by the early 1900s (eg fast ships, telegraph and world-girdling empires).

Another evidence of early globalisation is the 1930s Great Depression itself; if every country was a self-contained autarky then the downturn would not have rippled around the globe.

Though it's been around for centuries, globalisation just feels more powerful now as the communication revolution and jet travel has extended it to ordinary people, rather than just big business (late 1800s), music or the movies (1920s -).

8. The nature of western societies
Now, more than ever we are consumer driven. We love to spend money and that is great for economic activity.

You haven't mentioned global resources and energy. Even ignoring grim greenie predictions, scarce resources will go up in price. If substitutes are not found then prices will rise, which may be inflationary yet retard growth.

9. The public sector
Possible expansion of / or massive capital works (roads, hospitals, dams, etc) - which it could be argued are needed anyway.

I think you're thinking of Rooseveltian 'New Deal' capital works projects to get the jobless working.

But in a global economy governments feel that they are under more constraints. For instance they might not wish to put up taxes to fund big projects due to wanting to be seen as a low-tax business-friendly administration and to prevent fragile depressed businesses from closing and laying people off. And if they don't put up taxes then they must borrow, which means higher future taxes.

The whole 'globalisation prevents depression' thesis relies on a global economy that is largely seawater with each country being a little fish hardly able to cause a ripple. But fish seem to watch other fish and once one gets shaking then a big wave might develop. So a big (internationalised) pond could be a stabilising influence (as you suggest), but it might not, as in the 1930s.

On the other hand a more isolationist view could see each countries being in their own watertight compartments, unable to influence the ocean. This could well protect them from depression caused by external causes. But on the other hand, protected backwaters unable to trade do tend to become poorer because of an inability to exploit comparative advantages.

Peter
 
Lessons learnt in the past???

Try history repeats.

There will always be Booms and Busts.

Add onto that all of our jobs going to China and India.

Cheers
mono
 
Advances in technology.

The technological age has impacted on every aspect of daily life for individuals, businesses and nations as a whole. The West may be powering ahead, but as already mentioned our most populated nations are playing catch up.

Development of new technology (except weapons) has the potential to influence future directions of the world in a positive manner.

Cheers,
AnneDe
 
Mark

I know and respect your economic knowledge.

But I hear other people whose knowledge I also respect who have a different view.

My view is that, I will not plan for the certainty of an event such as a recession or depression happening or not happening. I should try to plan in a way that I can come out ahead whatever happens.
 
The first few lnes of Wiki's entry sounds too familiar for me to write off a depression...





The Great Depression

Main article: Great Depression
Prior to the Great Depression, a huge wave of investing in the stock market had taken place, which created artificially high prices of stock. This process was driven by the fact that shares were being used as a collateral for loans in order to buy more stocks (ie. buying stocks on margins). When the economy showed signs of slowing and share prices plummeted, this caused an extensive domino effect. As investments lost their face value and the loans on them "went bad," many financial institutions collapsed, triggering a monetary crisis. This led to the the famous run on the banks, in which massive withdrawls of bank deposits led some banks to collapse, confirming investors' fears and inspiring more withdrawls.
When U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt entered office in 1933, he began an aggressive program of socialism called the New Deal with three goals, to provide immediate relief for the unemployed, to recover the economy to normal levels, and to reform the system so it would never happen again. Roosevelt got GNP moving upward again, with 11% annual growth 1933-36.
To date no repetitions of the Great Depression have happened in the industrial world. However, Many Latin American countries suffered a severe economic slump coupled with high inflation in the 1980s, Japan suffered from a depression during the 1990s, and the former Communist states of central and eastern Europe also fell into an economic depression during the first decade of their transition to capitalist economies. Additionally, the term "depression" may be used to describe the situation of many poorer countries in the Third World (although in many cases these countries never achieved sustained economic development in the first place).
 
To date no repetitions of the Great Depression have happened in the industrial world. However, Many Latin American countries suffered a severe economic slump coupled with high inflation in the 1980s, Japan suffered from a depression during the 1990s, and the former Communist states of central and eastern Europe also fell into an economic depression during the first decade of their transition to capitalist economies.

Interesting how Japan is listed as having had a depression in the 90's. By western standards, even with almost zero economic growth, zero inflation and almost zero interest rates, the effect on the general public has been limited. Mainly because the govt borrowed tons of money and didn't let companies fail by influencing banks. This kept unemployment low and there wasn't as much genuine suffering as people couldn't even feed themselves (though given the generally low salaries in Japan now and the price of food, it's not exactly easy either). In the US or Australia companies would be allowed to fail and people lose their jobs, though govt support (via the dole, etc) would exist in varying degrees.

Even if you believe a recession is coming, that's no reason not to invest. You might be wrong, and you might miss out. If you're right, then buy properties that would hold their value better in a recession: namely cheaper properties with lots of land. If you separate society into the very rich, rich, middle class, poor and really poor, then in a recession everyone shifts one or more levels downwards. (In a boom, they shift upwards).

So properties that cater for the rich (or worse, wannabe rich - such as slapdash high-rise units catering to wannabe rich yuppies) will suffer in a recession. While middle class and poor properties (I use those words academically will be more easily tenanted. 'Rich' properties will be worth buying in bad times, since they overshot in the boom and will overshoot to the downside in a bust.

Even the Great Depression didnt last forever. Those who bought during the depression, assuming they survived it, made the most money.
Alex
 
Why I think a depression will occur!!

You forgot about the big huge elephant sitting in our lounge room...the credit derivatives financial bubble.

This has to some extent already impacted global real estate and we can now see the bursting of this bubble in this area.

If you recall, Buffet called them "weapons of financial mass destruction" and he should know, he tried unwinding quite a few of them from some company he bought.

It is not a matter of if but WHEN it will implode taking the global banking and financial system with it!!! It just takes one hedge fund collapsing to get the ball rolling in the daisy chain and.....(can anyone spell depression???):D
 
And right beside Gigi's elephant sits the peak oil elephant. Even without peak oil there will be things, incl food, which will be in permanant short supply. Yesterday we heard the the oceans will be devoid of fish in 40yrs.

Climate change may increase the world's economic activity much as a cyclone does so I won't call that an elephant.

Teach a parrot to say "Supply and demand" and you will have an economist. LOL Besides, how could a formally trained Kaynesian economist dissagree with how his fellow desciples are running the world's economy? Ask one from the Austrian School and you would be painted a different pisture.
 
/note to self -

Must have books and/or seminars to promote before point of view taken as seriously as those that do

M

btw - I really resent the way the catastrophisers have taken over this thread. If you want to talk doom and gloom then do it one one of the countless other threads where that message is the prevailing one and where you can all wallow in your collective negativity.
 
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It is not a matter of if but WHEN it will implode taking the global banking and financial system with it!!! It just takes one hedge fund collapsing to get the ball rolling in the daisy chain and.....(can anyone spell depression???):D

Amaranth collapsed. The market barely blinked.
Alex
 
Alex - so why did US govt and banks bail out Long Term Capital Management and Savings and Loans with US taxpayers money if they weren't worried about an implosion in the financial markets?

BTW, Amaranth collapse triggered huge sell offs in natural gas, oil and gold. Guess who bought them out of their positions...- eh Goldman Sachs etc. who made a mint of money. They did not go down without a whimper.
 
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