No wonder SOME real estate agents give the whole industry a bad name!!!!!

[wylie]

Just wanted to have a rant about an attempted shady deal.

My 88 year old ex-neighbour is legally blind, but can see enough to live alone. She is nobody's fool and very sharp, but has had a few instances of collapsing over the last few months, so is reluctantly looking at retirement villages.

I have offered to come over and organise a few appraisals. However, her step daughter has already had one agent through and they are waiting for the appraisal. He step daughter is wonderful, so no issues about family wanting to rip her off.

Before any agents were aware of the possibility of the house being sold at some time, out of the blue about a month ago, a "lovely young chap" knocked on her door and offered her "between $550K and $600K" for her house. He told her he was a local real estate agent but that this would be a private transaction, with no commission. It seemed very cheap to me and I told her so. He came back a few days later with his wife and young toddler and asked if he could show them the house, to which she agreed.

I told her to be very careful. I think her "lovely young man" is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Today she told me that he called again a few days ago and offered $700K.

I am really fuming about this. The "lovely young man" is trying to cheat an elderley, blind lady out of a few hundred thousand dollars.

It would be bad anyhow, but if he is a local agent, is it illegal, or just highly unethical and disgusting? Could he get into trouble. In the paper last weekend there was a similar story about an agent buying a house cheaply, but I think the house was listed with his agency.

I feel sure there will be an "eight" or "nine" at the front of her selling price so to me it is just ripping off an old lady.

But he was such a "nice young chap". Makes me want to throttle him.

I have told her not to sign anything, to call me any time and I will read anything given to her. Her step daughter has her best interests at heart, but works full time, so someone bothering her when she is not available is a real possibility. While she is sharp as a tack, this is a stressful time for her and she is quite vulnerable right now.

Wylie

 

[Pushka]

I have another story like that! My father died a few years ago leaving my mum alone. A couple of weeks later this 'nice' REA knocked at her door thinking she would now need to sell! My mother thought about this, and against all our advice, she decided to sell, but did it through this REA! But at least he did put it on the market I guess! nice commission though with only 1 open needed for the sale!

 

[kingchevy]

there's some asshats around

 

[geoffw]

He was probably not even a real estate agent, just posing as one.

I suspect that a real real estate agent could get blown out of the water for a practice like that.

 

[Harris]

Just wanted to have a rant about an attempted shady deal.

My 88 year old ex-neighbour is legally blind, but can see enough to live alone. She is nobody's fool and very sharp, but has had a few instances of collapsing over the last few months, so is reluctantly looking at retirement villages.

I have offered to come over and organise a few appraisals. However, her step daughter has already had one agent through and they are waiting for the appraisal. He step daughter is wonderful, so no issues about family wanting to rip her off.

Before any agents were aware of the possibility of the house being sold at some time, out of the blue about a month ago, a "lovely young chap" knocked on her door and offered her "between $550K and $600K" for her house. He told her he was a local real estate agent but that this would be a private transaction, with no commission. It seemed very cheap to me and I told her so. He came back a few days later with his wife and young toddler and asked if he could show them the house, to which she agreed.

I told her to be very careful. I think her "lovely young man" is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Today she told me that he called again a few days ago and offered $700K.

I am really fuming about this. The "lovely young man" is trying to cheat an elderley, blind lady out of a few hundred thousand dollars.

It would be bad anyhow, but if he is a local agent, is it illegal, or just highly unethical and disgusting? Could he get into trouble. In the paper last weekend there was a similar story about an agent buying a house cheaply, but I think the house was listed with his agency.

I feel sure there will be an "eight" or "nine" at the front of her selling price so to me it is just ripping off an old lady.

But he was such a "nice young chap". Makes me want to throttle him.

I have told her not to sign anything, to call me any time and I will read anything given to her. Her step daughter has her best interests at heart, but works full time, so someone bothering her when she is not available is a real possibility. While she is sharp as a tack, this is a stressful time for her and she is quite vulnerable right now.

Wylie

Hi Wylie,

I dont find anything wrong with what you have mentioned so far. That "lovely young man" might have thought that the house is worth what he is offering or that he might have wanted to bulldoze the property and build something new for himself or one of his clients and hence only looked at the land content value.

I can understand your sentiment (for your elderly neighbour) however someone offering a low price for a property doesnt make one an evil person. He did not bring a contract for her to sign immediately, nor did he pressurise her into giving him an answer immediately (with what you have mentioned).

If I asked a real estate agent to do door knocking for my behalf in a street, I would love for him to get me below market value properties. I have also used agents to offer neighbours of my property (atleast 15% below) and see if they want to sell.

Harris

 

[Alanna]

It is not illegal for a REA to organise private deals, they are allowed to buy property also. However (big however) it is a requirement that vendors be informed (in writing upon the contract) that they are a REA and that the vendor is aware of this. It does not sound like the house is listed, so knocking on doors seeking a private deal is not against the code of conduct.

Trying to buy privately when the property is already listed though, would be distinctly dodgy and this would fall into the bounds of unethical behaviour. Looks like he is showing initiative in the purchase method, but showing definite poor form in the price, whether he is a salesman or not.
BTW, a Real Estate Agent is NOT the same as a salesman, a REA is a license holder, a salesman works for a REA. They are different things.

 

[urban cowboy]

if he is an agent, ask to see his licence and then report him to the office of fair trading - there is a lot of grey area as to the legality of his actions if he is dealing as a private person (worst case scenario is they stir him up a bit...) - the trouble is proving the legitimacy of his actions...and that really won't happen unless he turns around and sells the property for a big profit soon after etc.

if he's lying and is not an agent - or won't supply his licence, report him anyway. Both are an offence against the Property Agents and Motor Dealers Act.

In qld an agent is not required to mention they are an agent or salesperson during a private transaction - it's more a matter of profiteering, and that's not necessarily hard to prove under QLD law.

outside of all else, taking advantage like that is a disgusting practice and he should be hung drawn and quartered - people like him make me really mad!!!!!!! and as you said gives us all a bad name.

Its the wrong side of town for me, but if you like PM me some details and i'll TRY and give you a rough idea of where the agents should be coming in, both in terms of what the market will probably pay for it and what the agents will try and promise!!

cheers
UC

 

[Harris]

outside of all else, taking advantage like that is a disgusting practice and he should be hung drawn and quartered - people like him make me really mad!!!!!!! and as you said gives us all a bad name.

talk about an over reaction

Why would a person (agent or otherwise) be hung drawn and quartered because he is making an offer which is lower than the market.

Why accuse him of a sin when he might have all good intentions at heart and just trying to negotiate a good deal for himself or his client.

Like I said before, I would love to find deals and instruct agents to do door knocking on my behalf and put lower offers to see if I can pick a bargain.

I have bought prop 15% below market value (mortgagee sale) and happy to find more of those.

There are multiple neighbourhoods where most houses have elderly people living there... does that mean that agents shouldn't door knock in those areas at all for the fear of committing an offence..?

Harris

 

[wylie]

I suppose you wouldn't mind someone ripping off you old blind granny to the tune of possibly $300K Harris?

Wylie

 

[Harris]

I suppose you wouldn't mind someone ripping off you old blind granny to the tune of possibly $300K Harris?

Wylie

too direct wylie

Why are you assuming that he has the rip off intentions, when all he is doing is to find a better deal for himself or his client..!

If you bought a property below what you think what it is worth, would you then find out the personal circumstances of the vendor or would you be happy to get the contract signed and deposit paid asap..? If you then found out that property belonged to an 85 year old person, would you then enquire about if the seller is legally blind, has cancer or selling the property to pay for a kidney transplant in a third world country...?

Its easy to understand your sentiment because she is your neighbour however I still dont find anything wrong with what he has done unless he uses pressure tactics to get a quick deal (which he has not).

Harris

 

[urban cowboy]

talk about an over reaction

Why would a person (agent or otherwise) be hung drawn and quartered because he is making an offer which is lower than the market.

Why accuse him of a sin when he might have all good intentions at heart and just trying to negotiate a good deal for himself or his client.

Harris

Not an over reaction at all - just agreeing with Wylie and calling it as i see it based on the information provided. If you as a private person can get yourself a good deal like that then well done - though the ethical question remains over whether you're taking advantage of an elderly lady who wouldn't know better re the value of her home.

But he as an agent has some other issues to face. If one is to assume that he is buying the property for himself as a private party (which is the way it reads) then why is he telling her he is an agent???????? he is not acting as an agent otherwise he would be representing her and required by law to obtain the highest possible price and get paid commission etc. The only reason I can think of to mention that you are an agent in that situation is to try and give some credibility to your offer - even though its so low..."oh he's an agent, he must know what its worth."

The only circumstance where he should be telling her he is an agent if he is not representing her is if he is acting as a buyers agent...but then he wouldn't be taking his wife through would he!!??

the fact that he returned a few days later with an offer that was 100-150k higher is fair indication of his intentions. If he is representing himself as an agent in this regard, then i am sure that the OFT would be most interested in his behaviour with regards to the code of conduct.

Again, if you save that much on a deal well done, i applaud you...but with those given circumstances there is very few assumptions that can be made other than him trying to take advantage of the situation.


So what is he doing wrong???

he is using is professional knowledge to obtain benefit by solicitation...also known as profiteering.
He is using that knowledge to the detriment of another person who cannot reasonably be expected to know better.

sounds a bit like a confidence trickster to me...

am i still over reacting??

 

[Dazz]

Not an over reaction at all - just agreeing with Wylie and calling it as i see it based on the information provided.

I agree with Harris, I think at this stage, based on what wylie has written, both you and her are over-reacting. Apparently the Vendor hasn't signed or accepted any offer, so no harm done to her nest egg just yet.

If you as a private person can get yourself a good deal like that then well done - though the ethical question remains over whether you're taking advantage of an elderly lady who wouldn't know better re the value of her home.

Exactly, pat yourself on the back if you can purchase property under true market value. Ethics don't come into it when buying property. Law comes into it. Leave ethics for the priests and civil libertarians.

code of conduct.

What - this is a legally non-enforceable feather duster. This code is a complete joke and at the heart of why the REA's have so little community respect.

So what is he doing wrong??? He is using knowledge to the detriment of another person who cannot reasonably be expected to know better.

Hang on, wylie said she was no-one's fool. Just elderly. Why wouldn't it be reasonable for a home owner to know the price of their home ?? Even if they don't want to know, pay 1K and have it valued. As a mature Vendor, she must take some responsibility. She's not a 5 yr old girl.

am i still over reacting??

Yes. Calm down and wait for some more facts.

 

[wylie]

How enlightening to see the reactions here.

No my friend is not a five year old girl. She is a very vulnerable, legally blind 88 year old lady who has collapsed a few times and has now had to make the totally unwanted step of going into a care facility.

And she has not really got an idea of what her house is worth right now. A couple of years ago, she would have, but the Brisbane market is pretty hot. Her property is on one of the most sought after streets in the suburb, raise it up for 360 degree views, including full city views, surrounded by million dollar houses. I would hazard a guess that even the local REAs would not know what they could command for it in this market.

She is vulnerable, feeling like her decisions are being made for her (by extremely caring family members - but still hard to hand over the decisions and independence).

And no, no contract was shoved under her nose, but what a low-life, particularly given he would have a fair grasp of what he would be buying at such a fire sale price.

Some may pat themselves on the back for shafting someone so vulnerable, but not this little black duck. I like to sleep at night.

I ask again, would your answers be different if this was YOUR blind 88 year old granny.

Wylie

 

[Dazz]

I ask again, would your answers be different if this was YOUR blind 88 year old granny.

Wylie,

I'll answer again. She should pay the fee, and order a sworn written valuation done on her property. Not by a REA, 'cos they aren't qualified to legally write or speak to her about values. Don't sign any offer to purchase until she is professionally advised of the value. It's not difficult. Take all of the hystrionics out of it.

How often she has fallen down, or whether she is blind or not doesn't come into it the equation. Whether you are her friend or not also doesn't come into it. You're trying to turn the property deal into some emotional song and dance.

If you want to help your neighbour, recommend to her or her good family members to organise to have it valued so she knows what she's dealing with. Simple.

 

[Firsthomelooker]

Well im going to go against the grain and say it is unethical.

It is one thing to buy property undervalue at a mortgagee sale where the vendor knows they must sell the property regardless of market value, it is altogether another thing to buy undervalue as a result of tricking an elderly lady by telling her you are a real estate agent, leading to the assumption that is all the property is worth.

Despite popular opinion I wouldn't be so quick to seperate the law and ethics. There is a comprehensive body of law called equity which is primarily moral based. Do a google search for unconscionable conduct or dealings if your interested.

 

[Harris]

Well im going to go against the grain and say it is unethical.

It is one thing to buy property undervalue at a mortgagee sale where the vendor knows they must sell the property regardless of market value, it is altogether another thing to buy undervalue as a result of tricking an elderly lady by telling her you are a real estate agent, leading to the assumption that is all the property is worth.

Despite popular opinion I wouldn't be so quick to seperate the law and ethics. There is a comprehensive body of law called equity which is primarily moral based. Do a google search for unconscionable conduct or dealings if your interested.

My issue is based on labelling a person as being dodgy, rip off merchant and unethical without knowing all the facts or without knowing his real intentions.

He might be fishing around for an under valued property however since he has just made a simple offer and not done anything else that can be construed as unethical tactics/ pressure tactics, there is really no point harping on about it. Turning up with his wife and child isnt dodgy either.

It reminds me of those hero/ villan today tonight/ a current affair shows, where no story can be put together unless an evil villain and a vulnerable victim can be cobbled together for the sake of a story.

As Daz has pointed out, there is a very easy solution for it.. get a valuer and get over with it. Everyone is happy

Harris

 

[urban cowboy]

I agree with Harris, I think at this stage, based on what wylie has written, both you and her are over-reacting. Apparently the Vendor hasn't signed or accepted any offer, so no harm done to her nest egg just yet.

agree all you like mate, that's the beauty of a democracy - you can feel free to disagree with me anytime. But last time i checked, intent can also be an element to an offence, not just the offence itself. regardless of no harm done to the nest egg, the intent of the bloke is quite clear in using his position for gain and it has obviously upset the owner and co.

Exactly, pat yourself on the back if you can purchase property under true market value. Ethics don't come into it when buying property. Law comes into it. Leave ethics for the priests and civil libertarians.

again disagree all you like, but ethics are the responsibility of all of us, lose your ethics on one issue and you might as well throw them all out. Ethics do come into it when your using your profession to advance your position privately, especially in a situation like this.

In this game, you not only have to do right, you have to be seen to be doing right - and i'm sure A Current Affair would have a field day with him over this.

What - this is a legally non-enforceable feather duster. This code is a complete joke and at the heart of why the REA's have so little community respect.

I invite you to read section 154,155 and 497/7 of the Property Agents and motor Dealers Act 2000 - i think the tribunal is known as the Commercial and Consumer Tribunal and they have the power to issue some massive fines to REA's and disqualify them an refer them for criminal investigation...still largely toothless i know - but its a start. Recent fines and sentences are published here:-

http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/O...609987A74A256B4200129D41?OpenDocument&L1=News

there are some interesting ones from the past few years...

Hang on, wylie said she was no-one's fool. Just elderly. Why wouldn't it be reasonable for a home owner to know the price of their home ?? Even if they don't want to know, pay 1K and have it valued. As a mature Vendor, she must take some responsibility. She's not a 5 yr old girl.

just elderly, and blind...so not in a position to research the value of her home like you are able both in person and via the internet etc. none of us called her a 5yo girl...

no argument re the valuer - brilliant suggestion even - though i am afraid that will even more so show up the agents attempts to undercut her. Again, just my opinion.

my main issue is that this bloke identified himself as an agent as though it was to gain him some credibility with the price he offered. this is backed up by his massive jump in price the second time around. there is no reason why he should've told her he's an agent if buying privately. In fact given his profession he should know the true market value of the property and is probably misrepresenting the value to her by his agent comment.

each to their own opinion - but i agree with wylie that this blokes actions do not reflect well on the rest of us. I don't work the area in question, but i know the area pretty well and even i know its a ridiculously low price.

Yes. Calm down and wait for some more facts.

perfectly calm mate, have some more facts, my original statements stand - once again feel free to disagree all you like...i won't agree with you on this one, but i completely respect your right to have an opinion nonetheless!!

cheers
UC

 

[Pushka]

And this kind of tactic is no different from David Tweed who sends letters to shareholders saying he will buy their shares at a certain price which is well below market rate (although probably not after the last few days!) OK, people should probably know the value of their shares, but his behaviour is constantly being reviewed by ASIC. So, illegal - probably not, unethical - YES! And if one has such low ethics, well, I would rather have integrity and ethics than make money. Ill gotten gains I say!

Wiley, there was a similar thread about tricking vulnerable people may 12 months ago, and I was presenting exactly the same arguments as you have been. Very similar scenario.

 

[wylie]

Afraid it is not so simple. She is worried about offending the very people who will be finding her a home and looking after her. Remember the one about "be good to your children, they choose your nursing home".

And being 88, physically frail and blind has EVERYTHING to do with it. Every call she makes is a memorised number because she is blind. I have offered to come over for more appraisals, and do anything I can to help, but she is more worried about her family thinking she is not trusting them, than she is about what she will get for her house.

I suppose we all have to imagine with just how we would deal with this situation if we were blind, frail and worried and had just had our lives turned upside down, and lost our independence, all in a short space. "Just get in a valuer" doesn't help in this situation as she feels her family will question her questioning of them. I understand what she is worried about, and I totally respect her decision to leave the dealings in the hands of the family, but I would also like her to get the best price for her house, and I hate to see someone ripped off (even an attempt).

I don't plan to argue the point any more. Thank you Urban Cowboy. I think you are more way more ethical than probably most of the folk who complain about your industry.

Wylie

 

[urban cowboy]

Thank you Urban Cowboy. I think you are more way more ethical than probably most of the folk who complain about your industry.

Wylie

thanks Wylie, your very kind

cheers
UC