Outsourcing Architectural, Drafting and Research Work.

[karenjones]

Blue Card:- Thanks again for your comments. I appreciate the points you make and find them very valid. I also understand you have an industry to protect for your own livelihood. Fair enough!

“”there's a reason that to become a draftie you need 3 year's TAFE trainign full time now. maybe you should have a look at the size of the BCA.””

With all due respect to you as a draftsman, it’s not rocket science as they say. I did many years of mechanical drafting some 25 years ago. It’s the drawing programs that I have trouble with. Now they’re rocket science!!

“”don't forget the relevant australian standards cross referenced on your drawings, an engineer certification, energy efficiency forms.....””

You’re starting to scare me!! No, just joking, I’m looking forward the learning curve. I’ve been stale for too long.

“”you might be - because you admitted yourself that you're not a professional.””

I found this to be a very interesting , yet possibly a snide comment and I guess it reflects your total distain for my approach.

OK, firstly because I commented in an earlier post that I was not an architect or draftsman you immediately ASSUMED that I am not a professional. Could I not be one of the other 10 million categories of professions out there!!
This is really a case in point here. I believe that to be successful in outsourcing, one needs to cross every eye and dot every tee. Sorry, just my little slant on this common truism. Assumptions will soon bring conflicts.

The second part is even more absurd. What you’re really saying here is that to appreciate if a translation from Japanese to English is accurate, then you need to be a professional (of what ever kind). Boy, give me a break.
Again, I know you have an industry to protect, but attempting to make my posts demeaning will be transparent to most here I’m sure.
I’m happy post regular updates on the progress of this project if people are interested.
Who knows, they may be good, bad, or even ugly.

 

[bradje]

I’m happy post regular updates on the progress of this project if people are interested.
Who knows, they may be good, bad, or even ugly.

I for one am very interested.....It would be great to see this unfold.
It would be helpful if the number of hours spent could be kept abreast of also.....
thx,
JB

 

[Aaron Sice]

but gosh, all that negativity and skepticism.

I’m not an architect by any means, or even a draftsman, but I have drawn up a couple of fairly large houses many years ago. The first one being our owner built family home, and the other being for friends of ours several years later. This was all pre computer days and they were done long hand on the drawing board. ....I haven’t done another one since!! And that was probably 20 years ago. I even went to the block with the dumpy to shoot levels for the topographicals!

i assumed nothing - i just read your post as quoted above.

it's not about protecting my industry - i believe i said not to even use someone outside your state - which would include me.

you can't take levels on a block and provide a useable plan now, unless you're a qualified surveyor and can provide your registration number oin the drawings.

a certified energy efficiency assessor must sign your certificate.

a qualified draftie is worth their weight in gold - even though architects seem to have a little "lordship" mentality over their drafties - i can tell you, pay them what they're worth.

like i said, welcome to 2010. it's not all "gun-ho" like it was back in the days of renovating your clinker brick home in the late 80s over a weekend, a few slabs'o'beer and some nicked timber from down the road - and then getting a retrospective building license only because you got caught.

you need to understand that many a building company - australia wide - have tried outsourcing to Singapore and Thailand and a SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY of ventures have failed. you need to do more research as to WHY they failed - if a large building company with procedure and process and contacts can't make it work - then honestly, unless you speak mandarin or cantonese - i wouldn't recommend you try and pull it together from your end.

now i'm not saying it CAN'T be done - but for the effort and the money YOUR time is worth - it's probably more economical to hire a local. hell - my fee for what you propose would be about $2500. so shop around some more.

outsourcing because "everyone else is" or "it's the way of the world now" is just ludicrous. i'm yet to find a valid argument in your reasoning as to why you think it will succeed.

you may get drawings - they MAY even be good quality. you have a real can-do attitude about it - so far be it from me to talk you out of it - but i feel you're not assessing your possible CONSIDERABLE waste of time and effort for something that may not be ALLOWED to come to fruition from the local powers that be.....savvy?

time, to me, is more valuable than money. you may see it differently. my disdain lies with your apparent lack of research into the differences in skillsets and drawing requirements....

 

[karenjones]

Blue Card:-
“”i assumed nothing - i just read your post as quoted above.””
Yes I see your point in re reading that post of mine. It did make me sound like somewhat of a pleb.
What I was saying there, is that I have no qualifications in the building related area what so ever. My expertise is totally outside this area, and I freely admit my short comings in the building game. I think from memory 20 years ago all I needed was a copy of “The Victorian Building Regulations” and a book of span tables and I was away!!
You are certainly correct when you say things have changed. I really had no idea of the amount, and I appreciate you listing some here.

“”you can't take levels on a block and provide a useable plan now, unless you're a qualified surveyor and can provide your registration number oin the drawings.””
I was not aware of this. Thanks for sharing it. I wasn’t considering doing this myself this time around. Lucky hey!! I will be engaging a local surveying firm for this along with the subdivision. I’ve had a few phone conversations with them over the last 6 months regarding this and another project. They were so busy last year due to Black Saturday. Apparently farmers were screaming for their services to restore fencing alignments. Peter was telling me their company was virtually working for nothing to do some of this work. Almost a charity deal of a kind I suppose. Some of these farmers weren’t covered by insurance against fencing loss.

“”a certified energy efficiency assessor must sign your certificate.””
Yes I was aware of this one, but haven’t followed up with council on how it all works. Five star rating requirements on buildings I believe. So I imagine someone certified just plugs in all the building plan data and out pops a star rating. Too easy!! (for them anyway!!)

“”like i said, welcome to 2010. it's not all "gun-ho" like it was back in the days of renovating your clinker brick home in the late 80s over a weekend, a few slabs'o'beer and some nicked timber from down the road - and then getting a retrospective building license only because you got caught.””

Hey hang on a minute. I’m starting to feel a little insecure here. You’ve been reading my mail haven’t you!! Haha. Just joking.

“”hell - my fee for what you propose would be about $2500. so shop around some more.””

Thanks for sharing that with me. As mentioned previously, I wasn’t happy at all with my initial quotes.
I have no emotional attachment with this project, unlike a family home etc. I have very basic criteria for the outcome.
1. Cost effective design.
2. Attractive to tenants.
Now I would imagine that any draftsman that’s been around for a while would be able to pull something from their files, make some minor changes, and hey presto.
I guess in this scenario it’s money for jam, as they say.

“”outsourcing because "everyone else is" or "it's the way of the world now" is just ludicrous.””
Over the last 12 months or so I’ve had great success with outsourcing for non building related projects. It’s an obvious progression. Hey, come to think of it, if you weren’t stuck in the old school of thought, you could be farming out your work load and paying your contractors US$15.00 per hour or less. I say break the mould!!
Don’t become a dinosaur.
Think of how much easier it would be to expand your business! You do want to expand don’t you?
Just think of it, you post project details off shore just before leaving the office in the evening, and in the morning returning to your office, here is your inbox full of completed assignments. How sweet could that be?
Take the rest of the day off to play golf. Whetting the appetite isn’t it? Now come on, it would be nice wouldn’t it? Is this practical for your business operation?? Of course it is. Some simple training and you’re away.
My glass is always half full, you may see yours as the opposite.

“”but i feel you're not assessing your possible CONSIDERABLE waste of time and effort for something that may not be ALLOWED to come to fruition from the local powers that be.....savvy?””

I’m prepared to put the time in here. Gosh, this is more stimulating than watching the latest soapie on the mind numbing box.
If this were to be a one off unit development I would agree with you, but I’m looking further afield than this. Time spent now could pay good dividends in the future.
Thanks again for the comments.

 

[Aaron Sice]

see blue....

“”outsourcing because "everyone else is" or "it's the way of the world now" is just ludicrous.””

Over the last 12 months or so I’ve had great success with outsourcing for non building related projects. It’s an obvious progression. Hey, come to think of it, if you weren’t stuck in the old school of thought, you could be farming out your work load and paying your contractors US$15.00 per hour or less. I say break the mould!!

the people here who KNOW the rules still can't produce quality drawings - however - i'm thinking if they can't produce the drawings for a lot of money, the same quality might only be worth $15USD anyway.

i'm not "stuck" in any old school of thought. outsourcing manufacturing, book keeping, basic accounting is a whole different basket because it's not a regulation specific industry.

i don't have trust in anyone unless they come recommended - and even then 9/10 times i'm let down.

Don’t become a dinosaur.
Think of how much easier it would be to expand your business! You do want to expand don’t you?
Just think of it, you post project details off shore just before leaving the office in the evening, and in the morning returning to your office, here is your inbox full of completed assignments. How sweet could that be?
Take the rest of the day off to play golf. Whetting the appetite isn’t it? Now come on, it would be nice wouldn’t it? Is this practical for your business operation?? Of course it is. Some simple training and you’re away.

it'd be very sweet - but not practical. my drawings are quality and reknowned amongst builders for being quality - that's my point of difference - otherwise i'm just another one of the herd. I was part of the structuring program to send drawings to Singapore for J Corp - setting standards etc until the plug was pulled because it was easier to set up a face office in Singapore and do the drawings here!!!

My glass is always half full, you may see yours as the opposite

there's water in the glass. better 50% of something....

 

[karenjones]

OK, so now that we’re over the pro’s and con’s of such a project I guess it’s time for me to keep any interested parties updated.

I initially short listed four prospective contractors , but recently had another three interested applicants.

Here is a list of the current contenders:

Sajan from India quoting US$300.00
Fitsun from Ethiopia quoting US$400.00
Clarissa from the Philippines quoting US$200.00
Filip from Macedonia quoting US$300.00
Abir from India quoting US$100.00
Mayengbam from India quoting US$25.00 (this may be to get a leg in)

I sent them all a generic email asking them to confirm that they were happy to do the required research. I offered to send them a copy of the Australian Building Code.
I had four replies waiting for me this morning. They are as follows:

""Thank you for your message.Hope you had a nice holidays too.
yes, I am willing to do the research.please send me the standards,requirement list and other relevant data.
Thanks and regards
Sajan""



""Yes please send me the information that will be required to comply at the time of design. Please indicate the location of the authority from which we need to take approval also.
We wish you the best for the coming year too.
Regards,
M R Luwang"


""Happy new year. Thanks for your mail. Please send me Australian Building Code I want to see this. Also if you want you can send me your contact information like e-mail id and phone no.
Thanks
Abir""

""Thanks again for all your beautiful wishes. I wish you marry christmas and a happy new year too. Let there be love, peace and harmony in your family in 2010.
I am very interested to work on the design. Send me a copy of Australian Building Code and we will start with the work. Please give me all your needs about the design.I want to know all your requirements and needs about the project.
Regards,
Filip"



As you can see, these people are all very keen. Remember, I haven’t awarded this project to any of the above as yet.
I guess now I’ll have to get myself a copy of The Australian Building Code. I’ve never seen this document, let alone know what the content’s about!!
Seems I can buy an annual subscription for around $300.00.

The other alternative is the State Library. This is a great resource for virtually any kind of reference material. Many of you probably know this, but I’ll say it anyway. The State Library subscribes to heaps of reference type material that is available for free online. Mostly from within the library itself, but some can be accessed from the home PC.
The really big one is the Australian Standards. All AS can be viewed online from the Library. Of course these can also be downloaded to a USB key, but that would be copyright infringement wouldn’t it!! But, legally up to 10% of any document can if fact be copied and downloaded for any purpose. (disclaimer: my understanding only. Seek medical advice before consumption.)

 

[Minx]

First of all best of luck and please keep us updated.

Secondly, I have the BCA on my bookshelf and it is a rather thick book, just for your info.
Thirdly, you will also need to gather all the AS as well as they go hand in hand with the BCA.

Lastly I'm putting this opinion out there - those that want the job are from 3rd world countries, even the one from Europe, I have seen it myself. Yes $300US is a lot of money, but international phone calls are expensive and an internet connection is expensive also. Internet cafes are popular there and wouldn't surprise me if the drawings are done from one.
If by chance they don't pass council, I hope that the people do get paid as regardless they have spent time and no doubt money up front.

Best of luck and do keep us updated.

 

[karenjones]

Minx:- Thanks for the comments. I’m devoting this Sunday to the BCA. I’m assuming they list the relevant AS.

“”but international phone calls are expensive and an internet connection is expensive also.””

I would not expect any of these candidates to be making international phone calls at their expense. Email may be slower, but at least there is a paper trail that can possibly be referred back to me. There is no urgency with this project.

“”Internet cafes are popular there and wouldn't surprise me if the drawings are done from one.””
I wouldn’t know about that, but going by most of their response times I’d say they are on line 24 / 7.

“”If by chance they don't pass council, I hope that the people do get paid as regardless they have spent time and no doubt money up front.””

Yes I do agree. I don’t want to see these people go unrewarded. I’m not interested in exploiting these people by any means. And I’m certainly not that callous that I would with hold such a small payment on some council technicality. Everything can be worked out.
To be honest, I’m not that concerned with the money aspect of the whole deal. Gosh, look at their quotes. I guess I’m more interested in seeing what I get for their quoted figures and choosing someone that I can work with in the future.
Can you imagine how some of these people would feel if they were given a bonus equal to their original quote!!
Thanks again.