Please compare these 2 - display home quality vs quality given to me

[Perp]

yup im an architect and work mainly in the commercial sector , mainly do bigger industrial warehouses, commercial offices with glass and concrete panel facade these days.

I believe you, just wondered. Apologies!

I was surprised that an architect would build a project home! I'm guessing it's a pragmatic decision because it's an investment, but I still don't know if I could bring myself to do it (and I'm not an architect).

Good luck sorting it out.

 

[woohoo]

Aha rodimus

you are trapped in the seemingly never ending scenario of Architect's opnion vs Builder's opinion.

I do not know why, but Builders and Architects very rarely agree or 'get along well'. I guess the Builder is always there to cut costs, cheapen the design, while Architects want it to look high class etc. I guess the architect is the client's friend, while the builder can be seen as the big bad wolf usually.

But anyway, this project home is not your design, so in this case Mr Builder is thinking this is "just another mum and dad customer, let's see if we can cut corners"!

The thing is, even with written contracts, there are still lots of things left to judgments. Aesthetics and "Quality" are very hard to things to judge, where do we draw the line what quality or look is acceptable? All subjective. In the end, probably let the majority view decide, or the court decide.

I agree with you that the brick in the picture looks sloppy.

 

[Glenn]

I guess the Builder is always there to cut costs, cheapen the design, while Architects want it to look high class etc. I guess the architect is the client's friend, while the builder can be seen as the big bad wolf usually.

Builders build houses to make a profit...simple as that. If they don't make a profit they can't feed their family.

Builders who are presented with an Architects drawings usually provide the customer with an estimate to build the house based on the size and complexity of the job, availability and cost of materials and labour, site access, profit required and time cost. The price that the builder is willing to take the job on at is usually higher than what the potential client expects, and the client has 3 options.

1. Accept the estimate
2. Get more estimates done
3. Ask the builder why is costs more than expected and what things could be done to reduce the cost

It is the response to item 3 that makes you think that the builder is there to "cut costs and cheapen the design". In my mind, the builder is the person who is responding to the customers needs versus his own needs. Builders are happy to take on grand plans...with grand estimates! It is when the cost of building the house is outside the budget of the client that investigation of things that can reduce the overall cost of the building takes place.

Unfortunately, many people have homes designed by architects that are more interested in providing an ongoing showcase of their wonderful design skills rather than something that their client actually asks for and requires.

Glenn

 

[rodimus]

Hi Glenn,

I do think although where the prices are fixed as lump sum contract, the builder can still cut corners by providing low quality or low workmanship. The word 'quality' is very subjective. Hence as Project Architects administrating the contract, we have to act impartial and always ask for high quality, if not the payments are not approved. I have done lots of Inspection of the Works for my own projects at work, and a lot of times they just try to cut corners or give you defective work, or bill you for incomplete work.

Eg, when allocated a $9000 for landscaping, the builder gave the client tiny little withered new plants. I told them the client doesn't even want them if they were for free and asked him to replant new plants.

Another time, a builder billed the client for roof frames that is only 70% complete,he was billing 100%, just so he can quickly get some cash to cover himself somewhere else.

Eg if an architect designed your home and administers the contract, the architect will represent you to do site inspections, making sure the building is built according to the documented drawings and specifications. Even if work is done, we still have to make a judgment on "quality". A lot of times architects have arguments with builders about what quality is acceptable. (not pointing fingers to all builders here. There are a lot of good builders who provide very good quality as well, sometimes give you more. We're talking about those dodgy builders here). So if its not acceptable quality or incomplete works, the architect as Contract Administrator just don't approve the progress payment and tell the Client to withhold payment or only pay a % of it if it is incomplete. So the architect is on the Client's side, representing the client as an impartial 'judge'.

 

[Glenn]

Hi Rodimus,

I guess we are talking about 2 different issues - builders taking shortcuts versus builders being asked how to make a given house more cost effective to build.

You could go on all day about certain builders doing things that are contracturally or morally wrong, just as you could go on about doctors, lawyers, school teachers, car salesmen, real estate agents, mortgage brokers....but it isn't going to fix your perceived problem.

As others here have already discussed, you require a legal opinion, documentation and clear and steady communication....having a winge about the building industry in general is not fixing your problem.

Glenn

 

[rodimus]

I didnt say it would fix anything.
You were saying the builder instead of the architect is taking care of the client's interest, I had to explain to you a different point of view by giving a different scenario. Thats all.

 

[Minx]

I believe you, just wondered. Apologies!

I was surprised that an architect would build a project home! I'm guessing it's a pragmatic decision because it's an investment, but I still don't know if I could bring myself to do it (and I'm not an architect).

Good luck sorting it out.

LOL. I swear i was just about to type the same thing.

 

[Minx]

Hi Glenn,

I do think although where the prices are fixed as lump sum contract, the builder can still cut corners by providing low quality or low workmanship. The word 'quality' is very subjective. Hence as Project Architects administrating the contract, we have to act impartial and always ask for high quality, if not the payments are not approved. I have done lots of Inspection of the Works for my own projects at work, and a lot of times they just try to cut corners or give you defective work, or bill you for incomplete work.

Eg, when allocated a $9000 for landscaping, the builder gave the client tiny little withered new plants. I told them the client doesn't even want them if they were for free and asked him to replant new plants.

Another time, a builder billed the client for roof frames that is only 70% complete,he was billing 100%, just so he can quickly get some cash to cover himself somewhere else.

Eg if an architect designed your home and administers the contract, the architect will represent you to do site inspections, making sure the building is built according to the documented drawings and specifications. Even if work is done, we still have to make a judgment on "quality". A lot of times architects have arguments with builders about what quality is acceptable. (not pointing fingers to all builders here. There are a lot of good builders who provide very good quality as well, sometimes give you more. We're talking about those dodgy builders here). So if its not acceptable quality or incomplete works, the architect as Contract Administrator just don't approve the progress payment and tell the Client to withhold payment or only pay a % of it if it is incomplete. So the architect is on the Client's side, representing the client as an impartial 'judge'.

In my personal and professional opinion if you want quality, I wouldn't be going to a project builder to build my house. I wonder if their display homes are poor quality in order to cover their butts.

Truth is, not everyone can afford to build with a custom builder. Well they can, however they are often not willing to build a smaller home to afford it.

 

[rodimus]

LOL. I swear i was just about to type the same thing.

Guess I m a money saving architect!

Anyway, project homes are cheaper because the builder only put in what is necessary, less articulation, and also they specify tiles and materials that they have ordered in bulk or have specials deals with suppliers. Also it's a standard home that they repeat over and over again on many sites, thereby saving time and cost.

if architect designed home, the client would pick all sorts of high class fittings and materials, of course that would make it more expensive.

 

[Minx]

Guess I m a money saving architect!

Anyway, project homes are cheaper because the builder only put in what is necessary, less articulation, and also they specify tiles and materials that they have ordered in bulk or have specials deals with suppliers. Also it's a standard home that they repeat over and over again on many sites, thereby saving time and cost.

if architect designed home, the client would pick all sorts of high class fittings and materials, of course that would make it more expensive.

I disagree. My house is architect designed. I wish i used a drafty and am glad i didn't go down the project builder road.

Generally the people who pick high class fittings have the money to pay for it.

Yes project builders do get materials in bulk. Not the best materials. Custom builder will use better studs. I have seen.
Project builders pay their tradies 1/2 the going rate. There is where they save alot of their cost. Why would my partner work as a chippy for a project builder for $25 an hour when he can work for the builders/developers that he does for $50 a hour. I can guarantee that those who work for a project builder have trouble finding work for a custom builder or developer. Quality plays a large part in this.

I know as my partner has worked for both. The stories I have heard about project builders blew me for six.

 

[rodimus]

Thats why a project home is cheaper to build, and if its not your own home (ie for investment), it is suitable.

 

[Aaron Sice]

check your contract and the plans you signed off on.

it doesn;t matter what the display looks like, if you have signed plans with no header course and different bricks then that's what will be built.

sorry to be so blunt but as the potential owner you need to be aware of these things up front.

if you have signed plans akin to the display and they have built something different i would be breathing fire.

 

[Glenn]

I think the best way to build an investment property is to have a project home builder build the home and have the owner:

1. Buy a copy of the latest Building Code of Australia handbook (BCA)

2. Buy a copy of the following Australian Standards:

1684.2 (Timber Framing Code)
3600 (Concrete)
2870 (Slabs & Footings)
3740 (Waterproofing and Wet Areas)
3700 (Residential Masonry)

3. Buy a digital camera, take heaps of photos of the house with it.

4. Upon signing the contract with the project builder, make them aware that you expect that the building will be constructed in accordance with all BCA and Australian Standards requirements.

5. Inspect the site at a minimum of once weekly, taking photographs of all construction that has taken place and all materials on site.

6. Buy a big diary and keep notes of what has happened on a particular day and all conversations between yourself and the builder...anecdotes from individual tradesmen may also be usefull.

7. If the building is not in accordance with the BCA or relevant standard, be prepared to face the building supervisor with the hard copy of the standard or BCA with the view of rectifying any work that does not comply with these documents.

8. Let the building supervisor know that you are not going to go away quietly...winge, moan, call them direct, call the office direct, drop into the office and winge, take unruly kids to their office, speak loudly about your discontent in front of their other customers....in short, make their life hell until they give you a house that is built in accordance with the LAW!

All of the above may take about $2000 of your own money and time, but will deliver you a house of above average quality compared to most that are built by a project builder....and remember, the less variations...the cheaper.

Glenn

 

[Peter 14.7]

Glenn is right. His advice is sound.

The lesson is document, document and then document. If the header course on on the elevations is should be shown. Get smaples of brick, tiles, carpet etc...to sign off.

However on the mortar, if after drying it does not match then they have used a different batch of cement, sand or both and that is not acceptable practise.

The sad fact is the change around 1995 to private certifiers over council building inspectors was one of the most stupid decisions ever made by gov. Blind freddie could see if the builder is paying the certifier to ok his work the certifier is going to agree to anything. Talk about conflict of interest 101.

I would be more worried about what is going wrong that you cannot see!!!

Peter

 

[rodimus]

Update!

This is what it looks like after facade washed.

Looks ok from far, but at close up....

Brick still looks a bit pale colour to me, and not enough black brick mix. Also the black bricks looks like greyish charcoal or cigarette ash colour. At some areas it looks like that area had been burned.

They will add the windowhead detail, take out the odd charcoal looking bricks from the front facade. Can't do much about the side facade....

 

[rodimus]

more pics..............................

 

[rodimus]

some more .................

 

[rodimus]

this is the display home. Slightly different (mine is a mirror image of this, and smaller house). But same facade style.

Note their black bricks are darker black (mine is greyish ash colour), and they have a good mix of 50%, while mine is like maybe just 20% of black bricks

 

[Aaron Sice]

okay. i see your prob. the batches of bricks are different.

because bricks are made of a natural material and are kiln fired, no two batches will ever be the same.

if you REALLY want the bricks to match the display you HAVE TO go into the brickyard and SELECT the batch you want and have the batch number incorporated as part of the contract.

also the builder appears to have used white mortar which will bring out the darker colours more, whereas your house has grey mortar which will mute the darker tones a little.

also the display home has a completely different front facade to the house you have chosen. if you signed contracts for your home, but is a different model of home than the display, then i would imagine you won't get the same window brick header course treatment.

all hindsight now, but i can see where the communication has fallen through. I used to design these homes all the time for project builders here in Perth (still do on contract basis) with "selldown" or cheaper versions of the display on pin-up boards in the display home.

pull people in with the flash house and when they realise they can't afford it we have a house with the same layout but all the fruit taken out for $50k less. they're already sold on the first impression of the flash house so they generally sign if they're interested in that particular house.

while i'm not saying this has definitely happened here, it seesm you have seen the display and signed up with the same builder but with a different home.

 

[Rob Williams]

I'd be real unhappy with all that you have highlighted.
They can't be the same brick. Even allowing for batch differences, they look totally different. I'd be contacting the brick company and getting a rep to come onsite and give you an independent opinion on what the story is with the bricks.
I've seen mortar change colours due to different weather conditions during the building process, but yours looks like poor workmanship or they have changed something at that higher level. I wouln't put up with that. It will never go away and you will never get used to it.
Someone clearly didn't read or decided not to follow the instructions relating to the brickwork on the facade.
You need to convene an emergency meeting of all parties and maybe get a lawyer involved just so they don't try to hoodwink you. Show them you mean business!