Plumber's work or DIY

[Bolero]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all)))
We bought a 2x2 unit built back in ’72 and never renovated since in Melbourne. Reno is ahead and before I start to ask for the quotes want to clarify what we can do ourselves. My husband is a very handy guy and we never had any tradies at houses and apartments we lived in. But it was in Europe. In Oz some works MUST be done by plumbers and electricians. I made a list of works we need to do to upgrade the property:
- replace the toilet (existing, connections are OK);
- replace two vanities (existing, connections are OK);
- install a new toilet in ensuit (no connections for it at the stage);
- replace all the taps and maybe slightly re-work connecting pipes for them;
- replace the shower heads;
- install the dishwasher in the kitchen (no connection for it now);
- install the new cooktop (gas) and oven (electrical) instead of electrical stone age stove we have now;
- replace powerpoints and switchers all over the place (not touching the main electr system).
Hubby is sure he can do all the stuff excluding gas connections. But we are not sure what is legal and what isn’t. So all the comments are welcome and thanks in advance

 

[PrimeCommercial]

I'm not a tradie but as far as I know its only the gas and electrical (except 12v) work that will need to be done by a qualified tradsman. The rest you should be able to do yourself, if you can that is.

 

[handyandy]

In theory all electrical and plumbing (down to changing washer) is to carried out those who have authorised license.

You could do this work and tell no one or conversely find some tame tradies who are prepared to look over your shoulder.

Personally we carry out all these modification/repairs ourselves (except the gas). One of our sons is an apprentice plumber and I have a good friend who is a plumber who I employed in the past and who taught me the various aspects of 'home-reno' plumbing. Now, if we have any situation, he will simply wonder over and advice or advice on the phone. It is as a consequence of this type involvement that my son decided to go into plumbing. (he hasn't had to clear a sewer block yet)

With the electricals I have an electrician who simply comes along and checks our work (for which I pay him). He's never yet found a problem and he is very particular.

Cheers

 

[James Allen]

I would be cautious about doing DIY plumbing in a unit as you not only have the potential to damage your own property but others as-well. Say for example you do the DW connection and in 3 months in fails and floods your place and all the units below and to the side of you. What do you think the first thing your insurance assessor is going to ask about the plumbing... What's the name and licence number of the plumber that did it.

In my opinion it's not worth it, I know plumbers charge like wounded bulls but at least take responsibility for the work.

Same goes for electrical work, there was a case a while back where a landlord changed a stove him self and did something like put the active on the earth bar in at the switch board, a 3 year old girl touched a outside tap that was being used as the earth and was either killed or seriously hurt ( can't remember which), landlord was taken to court and fined a massive amount.

I don't mind doing stuff to my PPOR where my actions are only going to affect me, but I wouldn't put other people at risk by doing stuff on a IP.

 

[Gee Cee]

Unlicensed Work

I worked in emergency section of Integral Energy for many years. And also as a Fireman with the NSW Fire Brigade.
Calls to electrocutions causing death, electrical accidents eg contact with underground mains or overhead wires , same results, fires etc, etc. Not nice.
You would also not believe some of the DoGGGGY work I have seen done by people in homes and commercial properties.
Usually people that have absolutely NO idea of electrical systems.

They think if it works it is OK

Common problems;

Using tiny cables to run large appliances. = Fire starter
Not using correct protection at switchboard = ditto
Not earthing equipment. FATAL. See below
Crossing active / neutral and earths .
One Incorrect wire can liven up your taps and the streets taps, sinks, shower, downpipes, metal fences and even pool areas. DEADLY

And of course they are not putting in a test certificate to the supply authority.
The ramifications are HUGE.

Say you do a heap of changes yourself. Something happens and it has not been legally done.
Eg place burns down or worse someone is electrocuted.
When these things happen sites are locked down as a crime scene.
Everyone from Police, Work Cover, Electrical & Gas supply, Fire Brigades and Insurance Companies go through everything with a fine tooth comb.
People think fire destroys everything. Even after a huge fire a lot of evidence is left. Wiring cable cover may melt but basic copper remains in tact right back to the switchboard. Switchboards never burn down to nothing.

Authorities will check for test certificates.
As will Insurance companies.
Insurance may be Null & Void.
You could have everything sued out from you.
Worse. You could be charged with Manslaughter if there is a case of negligence

Same basically goes with playing with gas mains. Gas piping and connections etc.

I am a licensed electrical contractor. Continually people ask me to sign a certificate for work they have done so it is legal.

I say "You think I am BRAIN DEAD."
I sign a job you have botched up.
Someone gets electrocuted or the place burns down.
Who The F--- do you think everyone will be suing
I am sure you are going to take the brunt in Court

And any trademan / contractor out there that does such is a bloody idiot.

Well that's my opinion.

You can paint, clean, mow, turf, concrete, put up curtains , shower screens, shower heads, carpet, do decking, etc, etc.
But Sometimes it just is not worth cutting costs.

Gee Cee

Greg

 

[handyandy]

Greg

What about the tradesmen who turn up and can't even do the job up to a professional level?

On a number of occasions I have checked jobs either during the work or after completion and been able to point out shortcomings.In two cases we had conditioners installed at our residence.

The first time the contractor failed to connect the earths on 2 units. basically he underestimated the time required to install 2 units. It was late by the time he had finished and either he or his apprentice failed to connect the earth. One reason is that the earth is an unmitigated soldered ball (courtesy of some previous tradie) and hard to join another cable too. As far as I am concerned this was an absolutely unforgiving excuse an only discovered because I went to look as operating the units caused power fluctuation (he had not load balanced between 2 actives) He then tried to give me a hard time for looking in the switchboard and discovering his stuff up. I swept the imbalance problem into my next contract electricians job when we installed offpeak.

Some time later we replaced one of the units, different company, and this guy just made an unholy mess of the whole job not using conduet runnings exposed cables ect, to the point where the aircon company had 2 other guys out the next day redoing the whole job taking longer than the first guy.

Another time I had and electrician in to install sub boards in each unit of a block, replacing the ceramics with din based switchboards including RCD's. The guy melted the casing of one of the switchboards? What the-----

I am not argueing the danger aspects because I have also seen some real amutuer botch jobs but I just don't think all tradies are equal.


Cheers

 

[Xenia]

In our agency anyone that does any type of work on a property needs their own public liability insurance, registered business and licensing if required. We never allow tenants to do any jobs, even cleaners need to have insurance.

DIY landlords??? Well, what do you do, we can only advise against it and keep a paper trail.

As an investor, we have done about 7 or 8 renovations to either flip (sell) or hold for capital appreciation. The heaviest thing I picked up for every single one of them was a mobile phone.

seriously, I would be hopeless at even the smallest job but still managed to make a profit from leveraging my time . Just something to think about

 

[Gee Cee]

Handy Andy
I know what you mean.
i have had the same problems with contractors working on my places that are interstate and to far away to visit for simple jobs.
In every trade there are duds.
I have been on dyalasis, had a kidney transplant and many other medical problems.
You would not believe some of the Doctors i have met that fit the same duds area.
At times i have had to explain the situation.
I had registrar that change my medication that has been OK for years and years. Next week I was in intensive care

My post was not saying that every trades person was perfect.
It was more to the fact that you better have all extremities covered if there is a problem down the track should you do your own unlicensed work

 

[James Allen]

You can paint, clean, mow, turf, concrete, put up curtains , shower screens, shower heads, carpet, do decking, etc, etc.
But Sometimes it just is not worth cutting costs.

Legally you can't change a shower head. Changing a washer in a tap, which I would consider more complicated than changing a shower head is one of the only DIY plumbing jobs you can do.

 

[RumpledElf]

All the plumbing on our house (except when I got hot water installed) is DIY, some by us, most by the previous owners. There's some pretty dodgy stuff happening - the two most annoying being a long horizontal run off the sink drain, the drain bows a little in the middle and water pools in it so it freezes in winter and you can't use the sink. They could have just installed the fsking thing with a downhill SLOPE .. geez.

The other is the pipe from the toilet. Because it is all above ground until quite close to where it hits the septic (which I presume isn't legal) and they forgot to glue one of the joins, when I got the house the join had opened right up from general movement and it was rather whiffy whenever you flushed the loo.

We redid all the cold water pipes because they had about 500 elbows in them and waved around in mid air a lot and kept freezing in winter. Now the run has one elbow and never freezes.

Probably a good idea to get a proper plumber in, you don't want to screw up the toilet and have it leaking ...

 

[Bolero]

Amusing how some people give lots of credit to themselves in doing smth)) If you can do it than smb else can as well. Thank you all anyway for the opinions although i asked what is legal and what's not.
From the answers comes next question: when you buy a house do you get every inch af wiring and piping checked for the insurance purposes? And how you do it as most if it is hidden in the walls? Because you can buy a house with faulty electric or water/gas systems and wouldnt have a clue about it until smth happens. What happens then? Do you need to prove that it was there before and you did not touch anything?

 

[handyandy]

Bolero

One way that they can determine when the work was done is by the hardware installed.

In your case your were suggesting that you update the light and power switched these in all likelyhood have a dating ability by the model type or even a batch number printed on the hardware.

Re the testing. An electrician can certainly check the soundness of the wiring - see whether the earths work and also that the active and neutral are correctly wired without having to open walls. In fact all wiring should be done in such a way that all connection are accessible. This is another problem I had with an electrician who embedded a connection in a gyprock wall (would have been once we had gyprocked).

I don't believe that many purchaser get any type of electrical test done. I have certainly never bothered.

As originally indicated we would carry out most of the jobs you listed but it is not legal as in Australia you are required to use a licensed sparky or plumber.

Just looking at your list of jobs I would suggest that you add installing a safety switch and at the same time changing over the old fuse box with the modern Din mounted circuit breakers. They have switches rather than the old fuse wire much safer for the tenant to reset a fuse. Mind you, just the fact that a fuse blows means that there is something amiss. Also, at the same time get a hardwired smoke alarm/s installed rather than a battery based one.

For this sort of work please do use a electrician (we always do)you may also find that he will change over your light switches and power points at a reasonable price. Normally I purchase all parts - populated switchboard and smoke alarm (light switches and power points) so that the electrician is not charging you for shopping.

Cheers

 

[RumpledElf]

Dodgy wiring can be very obvious. Our IP had melted and exposed wires all over the place, things not working, powerpoints and lights missing, the works. The entire house has been replumbed now (dreadful plumbing there) and will be finished being rewired next week as the wiring was quite lethally faulty pretty much everywhere. So yes, we did get it all tested. Expensive, but worth it.

 

[Bolero]

Thank you Handyandy)))
actually the new switchboard is in my list right after the new hot water system. And of course we will invite an electrician for it. Hubby will not touch any gas fitting as well. Yes, we can do some of work like reconnecting the vanities and taps ourselves but we are not crazy to touch gas or main electricity systems.
Does anyone know what is the reasonable quote to change light switchers, power points and power board in Melbourne?

 

[Ana]

You are only legally under obligation to use licenced trademan for renovations that have something to do with sewerage (toilets) and in order to satisfy warranty requirements for appliances, they would need to be installed by a qualified electrician.

Wishing you every success,

Ana

 

[Ana]

Also, wiring work should be performed by qualified electricians for insurance reasons.

Wishing you every success,

Ana

 

[turk]

You are only legally under obligation to use licenced trademan for renovations that have something to do with sewerage (toilets) and in order to satisfy warranty requirements for appliances, they would need to be installed by a qualified electrician.

Wishing you every success,

Ana[/QUOTE

Hi Ana

Are you actually trying to say that you don't need to use a licensed plumber
for hot and cold water, gas, wastewater, heating and cooling and roofing +
other classes of plumbing.

Perhaps you could debate this with your state licensing commission, e.g.
the Plumbing Industry Commission in Victoria and find out what a C.of C. is
and what the legalities surroundind these are.

I would certainly hope this is not advice you give your clients.

Hi Bolero

The above work has to be carried out by the appropriately licensed
person who then issues a Certificate of Compliance for this work, it is illegal
to do it any other way.

I would suggest that you ring the Plumbing Industry Commission
to confirm the correct information and ignore misleading advice here.

Cheers

Pete

 

[AlmostBob]

I did important work for the electricians and plumbers on our last reno
ie
made coffee (just the pot they had to pour their own I have some pride)
carried buckets
fetched
swept

what they found inside the walls from prior renovations,
was scary
too much chance of something going wrong
much of what they installed fits lock connectors
if it fails
click in a replacement, put the failed piece in the basement till the trade comes to check it out,