Not at all. But simplistic arguments about people who kill people being always wrong was not my argument.
RIP Nelson Mandela
- Thread starter Ed Barton
- Start date
Not at all. But simplistic arguments about people who kill people being always wrong was not my argument.
All living former US presidents have pledged to attend Mandela's funeral. That includes the two conservative ones, Bush Snr and Jnr, the former elderly and in ill health......that should be an indication of how highly Mandela was regarded. I wonder if Honest Johnny will do the right thing and represent us all.
RIP.
I doubt that any of them could find South Africa on a map. While they are there they should go for a walkabout and see how much life has improved for the average black person under the ANC. This will give them an insight to the fate of the USA under Obama.
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I don't agree with Kathryn's comments, but for quite a while in history, the ANC was considered a terrorist organization by many governments. Whilst Mandela was one of the leaders of the ANC during this period, he can also be credited with turning it into a positive organization.
In many ways there are parallels between Mandela and Yasser Arafat of the PLO. Today generally considered a positive influence for change but also considered a terrorist by many.
Another leader in the region is Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. I think Mandela deserves a lot of credit as he could have easily (and would have had a lot of pressure to) lead South Africa down a similar path as their neighbor, instead turning it into a far better place. South Africa was not simply a black vs white problem, there has been significant tribal ancestry issues to consider which Mandela should be credited with handling to the countries overall benefit.
RIP Nelson Mandela, truly a man amongst men.
In many ways there are parallels between Mandela and Yasser Arafat of the PLO. Today generally considered a positive influence for change but also considered a terrorist by many.
Another leader in the region is Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. I think Mandela deserves a lot of credit as he could have easily (and would have had a lot of pressure to) lead South Africa down a similar path as their neighbor, instead turning it into a far better place. South Africa was not simply a black vs white problem, there has been significant tribal ancestry issues to consider which Mandela should be credited with handling to the countries overall benefit.
RIP Nelson Mandela, truly a man amongst men.
Well it's true that Mandela was a communist terrorist plotting to violently overthrow the white minority Government of the Republic of South Africa and replace it with a provisional revolutionary government to take over administration of the state.
I remember as a young child visiting South Africa in the 1960's and seeing the apartheid system up close for myself. I can fully understand why they would resort to violence to overthrow the system as it was an obvious crime against humanity.
Seeing the way the black population were treated made me ashamed to be white.
I remember as a young child visiting South Africa in the 1960's and seeing the apartheid system up close for myself. I can fully understand why they would resort to violence to overthrow the system as it was an obvious crime against humanity.
Seeing the way the black population were treated made me ashamed to be white.
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A couple of things.
Mandela was a man who achieved some great things. He also did things wrong, and made mistakes. He was just a man. Like so many of the people who achieved a lot, he also did things that many people didn't like.
What he did do was to unite a nation that many people thought could not possibly be united. It was very possible that the apartheid South Africa had so much pent up hate that it would explode into a bloodbath.
Yet it's not just white vs black. When I talked with black people, they would tell me that there was no more hatred towards white. However, as for their Zulu/Xhosa compatriot, that was another story. There was similar feeling of English towards Boers. And then there were the people of Asian or mixed race sitting somewhere in between. One only has to look at Rwanda to see the strength of tribal loyalty and the trouble it can do. Or at Zimbabwe to see what damage the continued hate toward the former white rulers did to the country. It was impossible to have a country where the complex mix of race and feeling wouldn't continue to fester.
Considering the mix, Mandela's strong emphasis on reconciliation did a great deal towards healing the wounds. His ability to produce a government which, despite its faults, still managed to work together with people of all races, was a great achievement.
Was he tried for murder has been stated in this thread? As far as I can find out, he wasn't. His wife Winnie was tried for murder. Nelson Mandela divorced her shortly after the verdict finding her guilty, but one can't imagine that a marriage which lasted for 27 years apart was a strong one to begin with.
Was he responsible for a lot of deaths? Quite possibly. Anybody in a position like that will have to make decisions that result in deaths. He didn't openly support the struggle against AIDS until after his presidency, and that would undoubtedly have contributed to a great many deaths.
Was he a communist? He's been accused of being so for many years, and it's possible. There are very recent claims of proof that he was, but I don't know the strength of his claims. The ANC is in government in alliance with the South African Communist party, and the ANC regards itself as left wing, and this undoubtedly has contributed towards the opinion some have of him.
As far as what has been said in the forum.
Comments have been made which many disagree with. We don't remove messages based on an opinion unless they step over into the area of libel. We do however remove messages where people attack other people personally- otherwise it would just be a continual slanging match which is not helpful to anybody. If you do disagree with an opinion, please feel free to respectfully say why you disagree with that opinion. Please don't attack the person when it's the opinion which you don't like. Treat the other person with respect- if your opinion is worth holding then it's worth expressing in the same manner as you would towards a court room.
Mandela was a man who achieved some great things. He also did things wrong, and made mistakes. He was just a man. Like so many of the people who achieved a lot, he also did things that many people didn't like.
What he did do was to unite a nation that many people thought could not possibly be united. It was very possible that the apartheid South Africa had so much pent up hate that it would explode into a bloodbath.
Yet it's not just white vs black. When I talked with black people, they would tell me that there was no more hatred towards white. However, as for their Zulu/Xhosa compatriot, that was another story. There was similar feeling of English towards Boers. And then there were the people of Asian or mixed race sitting somewhere in between. One only has to look at Rwanda to see the strength of tribal loyalty and the trouble it can do. Or at Zimbabwe to see what damage the continued hate toward the former white rulers did to the country. It was impossible to have a country where the complex mix of race and feeling wouldn't continue to fester.
Considering the mix, Mandela's strong emphasis on reconciliation did a great deal towards healing the wounds. His ability to produce a government which, despite its faults, still managed to work together with people of all races, was a great achievement.
Was he tried for murder has been stated in this thread? As far as I can find out, he wasn't. His wife Winnie was tried for murder. Nelson Mandela divorced her shortly after the verdict finding her guilty, but one can't imagine that a marriage which lasted for 27 years apart was a strong one to begin with.
Was he responsible for a lot of deaths? Quite possibly. Anybody in a position like that will have to make decisions that result in deaths. He didn't openly support the struggle against AIDS until after his presidency, and that would undoubtedly have contributed to a great many deaths.
Was he a communist? He's been accused of being so for many years, and it's possible. There are very recent claims of proof that he was, but I don't know the strength of his claims. The ANC is in government in alliance with the South African Communist party, and the ANC regards itself as left wing, and this undoubtedly has contributed towards the opinion some have of him.
As far as what has been said in the forum.
Comments have been made which many disagree with. We don't remove messages based on an opinion unless they step over into the area of libel. We do however remove messages where people attack other people personally- otherwise it would just be a continual slanging match which is not helpful to anybody. If you do disagree with an opinion, please feel free to respectfully say why you disagree with that opinion. Please don't attack the person when it's the opinion which you don't like. Treat the other person with respect- if your opinion is worth holding then it's worth expressing in the same manner as you would towards a court room.
It could've turned into sheet in a Pot if not for the combined efforts of Mandela and DeKlerk
There was also the Coloureds
Yes, I mentioned the Asian and mixed race. Sorry, I didn't want to use that particular term.There was also the Coloureds
Wow - some disasterously poorly informed comments about this man being made here.
As Geoff said, he was just a man. Not perfect in any way, but achieved many great things. His power of forgiveness alone is something which should be remembered.
I know, and work with, many South Africans and this week, all of them, regardless of race/ethinicity group were greatly saddened by his passing.
RIP great man, you achieved the impossible.
As Geoff said, he was just a man. Not perfect in any way, but achieved many great things. His power of forgiveness alone is something which should be remembered.
I know, and work with, many South Africans and this week, all of them, regardless of race/ethinicity group were greatly saddened by his passing.
RIP great man, you achieved the impossible.
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Mandela ordered bombs in the car park of Ellis Park to kill and injure random rugby fans and some would call this terrorism and not freedom fighting but American presidents, British Prime ministers and many other leaders of states have ordered attacks that would kill civilians in times of war. What would you call someone that drops two atomic bombs on a people that offered to surrender?
Overall Mandela's contribution was hugely positive but I don't see any doubt he was responsible as part of core leadership of Umkhonto we Sizwe for random violence against innocent people who for no other reason and through no fault of their own, happened to be white. That makes him a terrorist just as much as people who kill others simply for being the wrong sort of Muslim but to manage to try and rebuild a country divided by apartheid without falling into civil war is an incredible accomplishment.
Overall Mandela's contribution was hugely positive but I don't see any doubt he was responsible as part of core leadership of Umkhonto we Sizwe for random violence against innocent people who for no other reason and through no fault of their own, happened to be white. That makes him a terrorist just as much as people who kill others simply for being the wrong sort of Muslim but to manage to try and rebuild a country divided by apartheid without falling into civil war is an incredible accomplishment.
People who are making negative statements...should look up the following:
1. Group Areas Act
2. Sharpeville Massacre
3. The 1976 uprising where police shot children..simply for protesting against being instructed in Afrikaans.
What I find disappointing is the lack of knowledge....and some of these people are immigrants. We do a much better check of letting these people come to Australia.......their views do not match a multi-cultural Australia.
1. Group Areas Act
2. Sharpeville Massacre
3. The 1976 uprising where police shot children..simply for protesting against being instructed in Afrikaans.
What I find disappointing is the lack of knowledge....and some of these people are immigrants. We do a much better check of letting these people come to Australia.......their views do not match a multi-cultural Australia.
???????????????????
Sash is your point that Mandela did not cause the deaths of innocents, or that the ends justifies the means?
Correct....he tried to stop bloodshed hwne he got out.....in the end he was awowed Pacifist..though in the early days he did take up the armed struggle.
What I find disappointing is a few people here are making comments without understanding the complex mix of people in SA or its history.
What I find disappointing is a few people here are making comments without understanding the complex mix of people in SA or its history.
Mandela was securely locked up in jail on Robben Island from 1964 to 1990. During this time he has little contact with the rest of the world. He was not even allowed to attend his son's funeral in 1969. When Malcolm Fraser managed to visit him in the 1980s, he noted that Mandela slept in a tiny cell with a worn, thin blanket. No phone, no TV or radio. Totally cut off from the world. Every letter he received was carefully scrutinized. His application to study externally, at a post grad level, turned down.
It's ludicrous to suggest that Mandela was in control of the ANC between 1964-1990, when he was imprisoned, or that he had anything to do with the violence that took place in SA during this time.
Ting Tong - you refer to the deaths of two uniformed SA Defence Force personnel in 1988. Some would call it collateral damage. Whatever you call it, Mandela had nothing to do with that event as he was locked up in jail at the time and incommunicado.
Mandela could easily have installed himself, like Mugabe et al, as President for Life. He did not. He was a hugely unifying force - a true peacemaker, never afraid to criticize some of his more corrupt successors.
I'm unhappy at some of the disinformation on this thread. It makes me wonder about some of my fellow investors.
It's ludicrous to suggest that Mandela was in control of the ANC between 1964-1990, when he was imprisoned, or that he had anything to do with the violence that took place in SA during this time.
Ting Tong - you refer to the deaths of two uniformed SA Defence Force personnel in 1988. Some would call it collateral damage. Whatever you call it, Mandela had nothing to do with that event as he was locked up in jail at the time and incommunicado.
Mandela could easily have installed himself, like Mugabe et al, as President for Life. He did not. He was a hugely unifying force - a true peacemaker, never afraid to criticize some of his more corrupt successors.
I'm unhappy at some of the disinformation on this thread. It makes me wonder about some of my fellow investors.
