Smoke Alarms, what is the go with these annual check ups

[RIC84]

assuming one has just purchased a IP, what are their obligations and what is the best way to service these obligations around smoke alarms?

I just got a letter from my PM asking to approve $99 per year per house plus $25-$50 for supply and install of each additional smoke alarm but not sure if I should be questioning the cost as I am a little worried that $100 turns in $3-400 pretty quickly with the inspector choosing to replace multiples each time.


what is the norm?

I am based in SA if that helps

 

[cmason]

Mandatory to have and maintain smoke alarms in most states SA Smoke Alarm regulations

Annual service cost looks right, although the supply and install looks very cheap mine was $80 for a photoelectric smoke alarm (240 mains powered with battery backup or 10 year sealed lithium battery). Obviously that cost will only be once every 10 years so after the first year should only be the service fee and don't feel pressured going with the one the PM suggested do your research and pick your own servicing company

 

[Lil Skater]

The company I deal with offers two packages - annual service for $79, but charge for compliance alarms (ie. they need to relocate alarms first time around) or $99 annual service which includes all compliance alarms, hard wired replacement alarms etc.

Their website says they operate in SA and they have a $1,000 guarantee that all urgent works are carried out within 3 hours.

If you want their details, please send me a PM.

 

[fernfurn]

I just send a letter every year to the tenant/re saying they must send me an email saying they have checked it works and replaced the battery. If they dont reply I email saying make an appointment for someone to come in and check it, if they dont reply, another email saying we are coming in on such and such a date to check. They always reply

 

[DavidMc]

I just send a letter every year to the tenant/re saying they must send me an email saying they have checked it works and replaced the battery. If they dont reply I email saying make an appointment for someone to come in and check it, if they dont reply, another email saying we are coming in on such and such a date to check. They always reply

I love it!!! In fact, this is something I should get my PM to do. I will even supply the battery!

I hate this Smoke Alarm scam.

Same same with CO detectors - much more effective jsut to service your units every 2 years.

Same same with garage door companies that write in capitals ' DOOR CANNOT BE CLOSED - SECURITY HAZARD' on their quotes when really its just the auto close function that doesn't work, manual close/lock still works and they want to pressure a junior PM into taking up their high quote before they can get in touch with the landlord.

 

[Jody in Darwin]

Smoke Alarms

We check smoke alarms at least once a year while we are doing an inspection.
It's a pretty simple check.

 

[Damien Cox]

The price looks about right but note that annual servicing is not mandatory.

Like fernfurn, we request written confirmation from our tenants every year confirming that they have tested the smoke alarms and changed the batteries. We also test ourselves as part of our ingoing and outgoing inspections.

 

[jenni_nextplace]

I love it!!! In fact, this is something I should get my PM to do. I will even supply the battery!

I hate this Smoke Alarm scam.

Same same with CO detectors - much more effective jsut to service your units every 2 years.

Same same with garage door companies that write in capitals ' DOOR CANNOT BE CLOSED - SECURITY HAZARD' on their quotes when really its just the auto close function that doesn't work, manual close/lock still works and they want to pressure a junior PM into taking up their high quote before they can get in touch with the landlord.

Hi David

I certainly don't see it as a scam. Rather than another legislation debacle, forcing owners to protect their personal assets.

Even I , someone who is in the industry will always pay to get smoke alarms managed by a registered tech on my IP. They provide a certificate of compliance. There is too much more involved in the legislation and its not a matter of just changing the battery. Most PM'S won't do it these days, due to legal liability. I personally don't want the risk myself if they get it wrong.

Just some of the things they do.
1. battery replacement
2. Alarm functionality
3. Date of expiry on alarm
4. Type of alarm
5. Position of alarm
6. Yearly fee generally includes, unlimited number of visits per year as required and this includes and QLD legislation says they must attend on lease renewals. They also attend to repairs, many times as a pm the smoke alarms had batteries removed by tenants.

 

[DavidMc]

They provide a certificate of compliance.

This is IMO part of the 'scam'. There is no such legal document, they are deliberately using terminology similar to a certificate of electrical safey (et al) to give the impression people into thinking you LEGALLY NEED something like this. I think it's misleading.

Note - I would not expect a PM to think any other way on the matter, it's a great way to shift potential liablity away from you at someone elses expense (nothing personal, this is just human nature ).

Just some of the things they do.
1. battery replacement
2. Alarm functionality
3. Date of expiry on alarm
4. Type of alarm
5. Position of alarm
6. Yearly fee generally includes, unlimited number of visits per year as required and this includes and QLD legislation says they must attend on lease renewals. They also attend to repairs, many times as a pm the smoke alarms had batteries removed by tenants.

Nothing in this list any normal person could do IMO. Just over cautious @ss covering, maybe a bit of laziness and the LL pays. I'm sure people will say 'my tenant doesn't have a ladder' / 'dont' want them to risk falling off a chair' etc. It's just gone too far, where is it going to end? Are we going to have to ensure the newly cut keys we supply tenants don't have sharp edges so they don't cut their hands? (far fetched, but I think people get my point).

How many OO's pay to have theirs done in their PPORs? Surely their own life is more important to them than the tenants?

I reckon it should just be a condition report item.

I don't know all the ins and outs of that one freak case but I bet someone would need evidence of some serious negiligence before anything could be done (i.e. no alarms fitted at all).

 

[S.T]

.

Just some of the things they do.
1. battery replacement
2. Alarm functionality
3. Date of expiry on alarm
4. Type of alarm
5. Position of alarm

Weird, my smoke alarm manufacturers instructions have all this information, no additional or ongoing costs either.

 

[Peterw]

I am not certain about other states, however in Qld, the Landlord firstly must be sure that the smoke alarms are in the correct positions. Secondly they then must keep a record of the date the of expiry of the service life, and replace before they reach expiry. Finally they must also test and clean within 30 days of the start or renewal of a tenancy. It the battery is "nearly" flat, then the landlord must replace at the time of the "test and clean".

The tenant must test and clean every 12 months, as well as replace the battery if it goes flat.

Now if you read the tenants obligations, against the landlords obligations, then they only occur if on a periodic tenancy. As renewal of tenancies, switches the obligations to the landlord. Under the Act, a renewal is considered a "start" of a tenancy.

Now I have read, that some PIMs take a stick with them, and push the test button. Ok the test is done, however that does not cover the clean, or check of the state of the battery requirement. The Act does not specify, how long after a test, a battery should last, to be deemed not to be about to fail. To do that here, we need to be carrying ladders. OK, what sort of ladder would be suitable. We have ceiling heights from 2.4 to 4 metres.

As we know, having a good relationship with a tenant, can allow you to "ask" the tenant to do things, and if they think it reasonable they will oblige, however if you are taken to QCAT, the bleeding hearts will not be as obliging.

So all said and done, we recommend to our landlords not taking on the liability, for under $100per year, (which includes I believe free replacement of faulty units) unless you are certain that your records of what you have done will stand scrutiny.

I am not saying I agree with the legislation, however it is in place and we risk paying a heavy price ignoring it.

 

[DavidMc]

Does anyone have details of the commonly cited case where the LL was sued because a tenant died in a fire?

Did the property have any smoke alarms at all?

 

[TMNT]

I can't stand it when these agents send out letters with fancy words like legislation in their recommended alarm companies

I just send my Tradie around yo check them for 70

And hell if the agent wants to charge me 90 to look at them , I'll send my tradie for 50 per hour and $9 smoke alarm for Bunnings to replace it

Rip off! It's a smoke alarm ffs
As long as the battery is fine and it's not 50 yrs old
It will do the job
They sell them for 8$ at Bunning and any idiot can install in 5 mins
Just people scaring average Joe's into thibking it's rocket science by using fancy terms and scaring tactics

 

[Lil Skater]

In Victoria they need to be hard wired, with battery back up. (In most cases)

Which is why it can cost more to replace when you need an electrician to do the work.

Having them checked annually is not a part of the legislation here, but they need to be in working condition at the commencement of a tenancy.

I do not accept the responsibility of checking smoke alarms, which is why I offer the service for those who want someone else to take the responsibility, or cannot attend to them themselves.

 

[Spades]

Far out,i'm in the wrong job...

 

[wylie]

I certainly don't see it as a scam. Rather than another legislation debacle, forcing owners to protect their personal assets.

Even I , someone who is in the industry will always pay to get smoke alarms managed by a registered tech on my IP. They provide a certificate of compliance. There is too much more involved in the legislation and its not a matter of just changing the battery. Most PM'S won't do it these days, due to legal liability. I personally don't want the risk myself if they get it wrong.

Just some of the things they do.
1. battery replacement
2. Alarm functionality
3. Date of expiry on alarm
4. Type of alarm
5. Position of alarm
6. Yearly fee generally includes, unlimited number of visits per year as required and this includes and QLD legislation says they must attend on lease renewals. They also attend to repairs, many times as a pm the smoke alarms had batteries removed by tenants.

It was this liability issue that caused me to buckle and agree to pay $69 per property. We've always done the new battery and check at the start of each tenancy, and scratched the date on the battery and noted it on entry condition report and lease. However, when we decided to give the company a try, we found a few issues in a couple of houses -

. expired alarms (we never noticed this, but should have been looking)
. wrong position of detectors
. required more detectors

This is IMO part of the 'scam'. There is no such legal document, they are deliberately using terminology similar to a certificate of electrical safey (et al) to give the impression people into thinking you LEGALLY NEED something like this. I think it's misleading.

Note - I would not expect a PM to think any other way on the matter, it's a great way to shift potential liablity away from you at someone elses expense (nothing personal, this is just human nature ).

Nothing in this list any normal person could do IMO. Just over cautious @ss covering, maybe a bit of laziness and the LL pays.

How many OO's pay to have theirs done in their PPORs? Surely their own life is more important to them than the tenants?

Not more important... but just as important. We have just had the reminder call that our own PPOR is due and we have booked in the annual check for next week.

I reckon it should just be a condition report item.

I don't know all the ins and outs of that one freak case but I bet someone would need evidence of some serious negiligence before anything could be done (i.e. no alarms fitted at all).

We are currently "experiencing" the legal system. Nothing is as it seems, nothing seems sensible. Common sense doesn't come into it when you are working with "the law", or so it seems. I would not want to take a chance on having a fire in a house and the insurer discovering the alarm was expired. This was a fact in at least one house we had checked when we signed on with the company. We did have a small fire recently in an IP.

Weird, my smoke alarm manufacturers instructions have all this information, no additional or ongoing costs either.

I was all for us doing this ourselves, and we did for years, but was surprised that there were issues we hadn't noticed (expired detectors, wrong positioning, not enough detectors).

I can't stand it when these agents send out letters with fancy words like legislation in their recommended alarm companies

I just send my Tradie around yo check them for 70

We are paying $69 per property per year. The first year, this meant at least two calls, one initial check, and then when the tenancy was renewed, a second call. Some houses it meant three calls. It will settle down now, and should only be one call. You are paying your tradie about the same and still shouldering the risk yourself.

And hell if the agent wants to charge me 90 to look at them , I'll send my tradie for 50 per hour and $9 smoke alarm for Bunnings to replace it

Rip off! It's a smoke alarm ffs
As long as the battery is fine and it's not 50 yrs old
It will do the job
They sell them for 8$ at Bunning and any idiot can install in 5 mins
Just people scaring average Joe's into thibking it's rocket science by using fancy terms and scaring tactics

I used to think the same way, but I now look at this as a potential lawsuit, different to many other risks we shoulder... especially knowing that however careful we were, we still got it wrong in several houses.

I believe the $69 we are paying per property (tax deductible) is value for money. I would have not thought that even one year ago.

 

[DavidMc]

I do not accept the responsibility of checking smoke alarms, which is why I offer the service for those who want someone else to take the responsibility, or cannot attend to them themselves.

Hi Skater. Where do you think the middle ground is?

What if a LL asked you to check the smoke alarms to the best of your ability, i.e. something that a reasonable, average person would be able to do - namely, press the button and hear it beep and change battery at the start of each tenancy, and provided you with some form of liablity wavier?

Something to the effect of 'I, the LL, accept full responsiblity for the smoke alarms in this property'.

Would you be able to work with this?

 

[Lil Skater]

Hmm, I think I'd have to speak to my insurance company and a solicitor first. Maybe TerryW can answer whether a waiver would be enough.

In saying this however, I don't personally feel comfortable saying that yes it does work - especially as I don't know if the placement is right etc.

 

[wylie]

Hi Skater. Where do you think the middle ground is?

What if a LL asked you to check the smoke alarms to the best of your ability, i.e. something that a reasonable, average person would be able to do - namely, press the button and hear it beep and change battery at the start of each tenancy, and provided you with some form of liablity wavier?

Something to the effect of 'I, the LL, accept full responsiblity for the smoke alarms in this property'.

Would you be able to work with this?

I wouldn't trust any sort of legal "waiver". We have discovered over the past six months that such things mean nothing in the hands of a "clever" barrister.

What we are experiencing makes me rethink a lot of things, wills, EPAs, safety of trusts etc.

I certainly wouldn't trust a "waiver" signed the an owner if I was a PM.

 

[S.T]

In Victoria they need to be hard wired, with battery back up. (In most cases)

Which is why it can cost more to replace when you need an electrician to do the work.

Having them checked annually is not a part of the legislation here, but they need to be in working condition at the commencement of a tenancy.

I do not accept the responsibility of checking smoke alarms, which is why I offer the service for those who want someone else to take the responsibility, or cannot attend to them themselves.

Could you point out to us where they need to be hard wired in Victoria? I thought this depended on the age of the building and came in with building requirements in the late 90's. So any building older is quite fine to have a standard battery powered smoke alarm fitted.

Could you also show me where it states in Victoria that they need to be tested at the start of a tenancy? I thought yearly is fine. I know QLD clearly states start of tenancy, just cant find anything specific to Victoria.

We really need Victoria to publish a comprehensive smoke alarm policy that we can all follow and is clear cut, this would save all the miss-information that is out there.