thoughts? are you a christian or a catholic? only asking because a lot of christians i know haven't studied the old testament in the same detail as the new testament as part of bible study.
The Big Bad Question.
- Thread starter Aaron Sice
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thoughts? are you a christian or a catholic? only asking because a lot of christians i know haven't studied the old testament in the same detail as the new testament as part of bible study.
and there we have it - faith by choice, not instilled dogma.
can i be so blunt as to ask why you need to feel there is something higher than thou? do you fel life is out of your control and require that constant parental figure? do you need reward incentive to make you do good? i don't mean to sound condescending either, but these are the most common answers i get, so i'm assuming here.
it's okay to admit to any of the above, there's no ridicule here and this has been an awesome thread because of it - a lot of the world believe the same so remember it's ME who's the odd one out here.
i'm by no means attacking you or being sarcastic, but sometimes just asking can reveal a lot about a person's position with this all - maybe it wil help me understand someone's position like yours a little better.
and it's okay to say i don't want to answer as well, because sometimes it makes people uncomfortable to question their own faith. just let me know
blue card, why do you choose to invest, be a role model for your children, their rock (nice biblical reference there mate!).
Is it because you have faith that doing that will be the best for them? You can't PROVE it will be the best path as noone knows what the future holds. You just do it hoping that you have made the best choices you can. That is faith.
If I told you that you could be the most involved, switched on parent on the planet, but in 20 years your kid will be a drug fiend knocking over 7-11s to get a fix, would you still parent the way you do? Would you still build your empire? Be their rock? Love them unconditionally? Of course you would.
That is faith.
Mate you already have it. you just haven't recognised it as you are looking for it in a religious context and it isn't there for you. It is where-ever YOU find it.
Is it because you have faith that doing that will be the best for them? You can't PROVE it will be the best path as noone knows what the future holds. You just do it hoping that you have made the best choices you can. That is faith.
If I told you that you could be the most involved, switched on parent on the planet, but in 20 years your kid will be a drug fiend knocking over 7-11s to get a fix, would you still parent the way you do? Would you still build your empire? Be their rock? Love them unconditionally? Of course you would.
That is faith.
Mate you already have it. you just haven't recognised it as you are looking for it in a religious context and it isn't there for you. It is where-ever YOU find it.
As George Bernard Shaw once said, the fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.
Reality is pretty amazing. It's worth engaging with it.
I tend not to discuss religion much these days, but for the sake of being represented in the numbers, I am religious (Catholic). I am not currently active in a church because we have recently moved and not found the right parish for us, and just how active we are depends a bit on the priest and community where we happen to be. I have had period of activity and inactivity, and varying levels of commitment in my life. (Most people who are genuinely engaged with their faith do IMO). But the spiritual engagement is always there, one way or another.
i choose to invest because it will make me more money and provide the ability to open up more avenues for me. i can't draw a line between that and spiritual faith, sorry
a CF+ investor by this definition would be atheistic, because it doesn't matter if they believe markets go up or down....!
you completely missed my point . But that is ok. If you can't see it I suggest maybe you stop looking? Maybe it isn't for you? ( I mean this nicely and I am not being sarcastic or anything like that.) I think it is a bit like the argument "why doesn't everyone invest?" answer is everyone is different.
because one can see the benefits of investing and improving their lifestyle financially it is nearly impossible to comprehend why others don't do the same instead of whinging about being broke etc... (mant thread on that subject!)
So because YOU can't see (or get) the faith thing it is easier to dismiss it or argue against it as being inferior, lacking in intelligence, needy etc. That doesn't make it so. It just makes it YOUR reality.
I think this has been a great thread and it is very interesting to see all the different views that everyone has. Well done.
because one can see the benefits of investing and improving their lifestyle financially it is nearly impossible to comprehend why others don't do the same instead of whinging about being broke etc... (mant thread on that subject!)
So because YOU can't see (or get) the faith thing it is easier to dismiss it or argue against it as being inferior, lacking in intelligence, needy etc. That doesn't make it so. It just makes it YOUR reality.
I think this has been a great thread and it is very interesting to see all the different views that everyone has. Well done.
Token Funder:
Hmmm, while we all can possibly have fun in our own realities, maybe there are some considerations there too:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
~Albert Einstein
There is an objective reality out there, but we view it through the spectacles of our beliefs, attitudes, and values.
~David G. Myers, Social Psychology
There's something beautifully soothing about a fact - even (or perhaps especially) if we're not sure what it means.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Somethings are not necessarily as they seem ~Our Obsession
Faith, spirituality have been with us since we began, it means so much to some and they draw great peace, happiness and strength from it.
The puritanical choices, behaviour, fanatical aspects, dogmatism within religion are what people have added onto. We can be quite good at that....personal life, reality or faith, take your pick.
People: The unpredictable predictability. Or, better still, the predictable unpredictability.
Hmmm, while we all can possibly have fun in our own realities, maybe there are some considerations there too:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
~Albert Einstein
There is an objective reality out there, but we view it through the spectacles of our beliefs, attitudes, and values.
~David G. Myers, Social Psychology
There's something beautifully soothing about a fact - even (or perhaps especially) if we're not sure what it means.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Somethings are not necessarily as they seem ~Our Obsession
Faith, spirituality have been with us since we began, it means so much to some and they draw great peace, happiness and strength from it.
The puritanical choices, behaviour, fanatical aspects, dogmatism within religion are what people have added onto. We can be quite good at that....personal life, reality or faith, take your pick.
People: The unpredictable predictability. Or, better still, the predictable unpredictability.
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I am Christian - Baptist if you need a specific. I have done a lot of study on both old and new testaments - you can't read one without the other as they complement...one of my favourite authors/speakers has a line that goes something like "the new testament is in the old testament concealed and the old testament is in the new testament revealed" - i love that line, and when you study them together it reveals so much more that just a simple statement. Many people like to quote the bible to prove a point one way or another - but sooooo much is taken out of context because they haven't considered the wider statements and themes of that verse nor realised that it is often impacted by the OT.
the reason i mention that follows from your comment about Jesus and Ramses etc. yes Ramses predates Jesus by a couple of thousand years, but the old testament points to the coming of Jesus right the way through (remember that quote above?) which tells us that Jesus is first alluded to a couple of thousand years before Ramses - so who copied who??
As for Jesus mortality - no argument from me there - though not in the same context. The bible clearly states Jesus became man. But it also clearly shows his power as God - there is no evidence to suggest he wasn't the son of God and plenty to show he was - many people these days doubt his power and miracles, saying they are just stories - but as you pointed out there are hundreds/thousands of different accounts of those miracles that have nothing to do with the bible - historians of the time recorded a lot of them too. Historians also record Jesus at his death and afterwards showing his resurrection.
to try and answer your other questions - I don't FEEL the need to believe in something higher than myself...the evidence for me that there is a God is far to strong. I often think it is harder to believe there isn't a God - it just doesn't make any sense to me that we could believe everything we see is chance/fluke/evolved (yes I am also a staunch creationist). I don't feel that my life is out of control - I feel my life isn't mine to control, it is God's and I am here to do the very best I can with it until He calls me home. Nor do I see it as a reward incentive - it is because with all my brokenness and history, there is a loving God who cherishes me as His very own and he offers me a precious gift of life and I choose to accept it... do I stuff it up?? all the time, but there is that amazing concept of forgiveness that pulls me back up - that is the scandal of grace...there is nothing you could do to make God love you more, there is nothing you could do to make Him love you less.
i'll try and put it this way - what is love?? why does it exist??? realistically it doesn't make any sense - animals don't have it, they just mate and be done with it - why do humans love and yearn for another and are heartbroken at separation through death or breakup...
now if you take the concept of love coming from a God who created you, who loves you, who cares for you and wants to share eternity with you and gives you that opportunity - it gives love a meaning, a purpose. God is my purpose, my reason for being and I will worship him to the day I die knowing that I have an eternity to be with him. Does this open me up for ridicule - yep...Token Funder just proved that. Do I care, nup... because at the end of the day I know that there is a God who loves me far more than the world could hate me and that is all that matters to me. This is reality and I love it!!
sorry if this comes across preachy, but I am trying to articulate in writing what I know to be true - somewhat clumsily.
BC feel free to ask me anything any time and I will try to respond to it the best way I can - I am not uncomfortable with my faith at all and if my journey can help give you the perspective you seek then great! I certainly don't take any of your questions or points as attacks
I may have missed a couple of your questions of not answered them well - let me know if I have.cheers
UC
I think even those who don't have a religious faith believe there was a Jesus - just not an immortal Jesus, son of God, etc.
I also think that for those who dismiss religion it's because the bible is so contradictory, written by multiple authors, put together under specific instructions to form a certain picture, has been translated and transcribed numerous times which leaves room for error and so on. It's also politically biased. Around the time of the bible stories the people were under Roman rule which was oppressive & cruel. The general masses were in fear of their life constantly, weren't allowed to choose their faith, were punished or killed if found out, wrote in code so no-one could decipher their writings if they got caught, used symbols to identify each other and so on and this would surely influence their writings. Yet there's bugger all mention of the harsh Roman rule! There's just so much left out, and so much changed or camouflaged in the bible I don't see how anyone can put faith in it.
I think I'm a bit like Blue Card, it would be nice to know/feel there's an omnipresence who always watches over you and gives you warm fuzzies, and that there's something after death, but I have a hard time buying our current top religions and what they are based on.
I also think that for those who dismiss religion it's because the bible is so contradictory, written by multiple authors, put together under specific instructions to form a certain picture, has been translated and transcribed numerous times which leaves room for error and so on. It's also politically biased. Around the time of the bible stories the people were under Roman rule which was oppressive & cruel. The general masses were in fear of their life constantly, weren't allowed to choose their faith, were punished or killed if found out, wrote in code so no-one could decipher their writings if they got caught, used symbols to identify each other and so on and this would surely influence their writings. Yet there's bugger all mention of the harsh Roman rule! There's just so much left out, and so much changed or camouflaged in the bible I don't see how anyone can put faith in it.
I think I'm a bit like Blue Card, it would be nice to know/feel there's an omnipresence who always watches over you and gives you warm fuzzies, and that there's something after death, but I have a hard time buying our current top religions and what they are based on.
Religion
"Deity, you are omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient, you have a plan for everything, , , , , , but I want to change the plan, just a little, just this bit referring to me, you forgot this and got that wrong"
Evolution
Where is last epoch's monkey that this epoch is a neanderthal
Where is minus 2 epoch's monkey that last epoch was a neanderthal, that this epoch has hit the bronze age
"Deity, you are omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient, you have a plan for everything, , , , , , but I want to change the plan, just a little, just this bit referring to me, you forgot this and got that wrong"
Evolution
Where is last epoch's monkey that this epoch is a neanderthal
Where is minus 2 epoch's monkey that last epoch was a neanderthal, that this epoch has hit the bronze age
but i don't dismiss it - in fact, i'm a little jealous of it.
Don't forget, the Christian Church was started by the Disciples who were witnesses to the resurrection. They had no motivation to do this, there was no money in it for them, and they lived lives of poverty.
Why would they do this if they had not witnessed miracles or the resurrection?
The early followers were also people who had witnessed miracles.
If these things did not happen, there would have been no Christian church.
Why would they do this if they had not witnessed miracles or the resurrection?
The early followers were also people who had witnessed miracles.
If these things did not happen, there would have been no Christian church.
Posted by Urban Cowboy;
I am Christian - Baptist if you need a specific. I have done a lot of study on both old and new testaments - you can't read one without the other as they complement...one of my favourite authors/speakers has a line that goes something like "the new testament is in the old testament concealed and the old testament is in the new testament revealed"
Love yr post man !!
I Know im gonna get hammered here but anyway ill put this up.
Here is an example from the old testament from way before there was any sign of Jesus on earth .It is showng that Jesus would one day in the future come to take the sins of the world !
(and there are hundreds more like it all accepted by non religous scholars)
Isaiah 53:5-7 & 12
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
then
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.
I am Christian - Baptist if you need a specific. I have done a lot of study on both old and new testaments - you can't read one without the other as they complement...one of my favourite authors/speakers has a line that goes something like "the new testament is in the old testament concealed and the old testament is in the new testament revealed"
Love yr post man !!
I Know im gonna get hammered here but anyway ill put this up.
Here is an example from the old testament from way before there was any sign of Jesus on earth .It is showng that Jesus would one day in the future come to take the sins of the world !
(and there are hundreds more like it all accepted by non religous scholars)
Isaiah 53:5-7 & 12
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
then
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.
about a year ago I mentioned I was looking at setting up a branch of the Agnostic Church in Perth. unfortunately I am no further into that. The business of religion is absolutely huge and is up there with weddings.
Anyway, hopefully I will be further into this within the next 5 years.
Anyway, hopefully I will be further into this within the next 5 years.
Why do i believe and have faith ?
To follow up and answer yr earlier question Bluecard ;
I believe because i dont have any other choice;
I have breath in my lungs,I can talk ,my body heals itself when i have an illness,I have a heart that feels,I have the power to build up or tear down with my tounge
etc etc
I look around at the world and i see amazing beauty :
I see the way the world interacts together and functions.
I see the thousands! of different species of insects and animals all given their own different abilities and functions to stay alive and protect themselves in their environment
I look at the planets and the sheer irrelevance of the size of us humans (and earth)compared to the rest of the galaxys and yet we are still gifted with the ability to live and grow and enjoy our life.
Then I can interact with God himself and start to follow his plan and then look back and say far out ,God yr guidlines for life are real.It actually works when we follow yr boundaries, and live our lives to serve one another in Love Then also, to make mistakes but then allow ourselves to be forgiven and move on without condemning ourselves.
And Ultimately to know that The Creator,designer ,planner and maker of all life actually loves me so deaply thats theres nothing that i can do ,ever, that will cause him to stop loving me. It doesnt matter who rejects me in this life ,ever.I am totally accepted forever!!
Do you know what that is like to KNOW that you are loved and accepted by God himself
even when you definately don't deserve it ?!!
I dont have any choice because i know without a shadow of doubt that God is alive and very real .
To follow up and answer yr earlier question Bluecard ;
I believe because i dont have any other choice;
I have breath in my lungs,I can talk ,my body heals itself when i have an illness,I have a heart that feels,I have the power to build up or tear down with my tounge
etc etc
I look around at the world and i see amazing beauty :
I see the way the world interacts together and functions.
I see the thousands! of different species of insects and animals all given their own different abilities and functions to stay alive and protect themselves in their environment
I look at the planets and the sheer irrelevance of the size of us humans (and earth)compared to the rest of the galaxys and yet we are still gifted with the ability to live and grow and enjoy our life.
Then I can interact with God himself and start to follow his plan and then look back and say far out ,God yr guidlines for life are real.It actually works when we follow yr boundaries, and live our lives to serve one another in Love Then also, to make mistakes but then allow ourselves to be forgiven and move on without condemning ourselves.
And Ultimately to know that The Creator,designer ,planner and maker of all life actually loves me so deaply thats theres nothing that i can do ,ever, that will cause him to stop loving me. It doesnt matter who rejects me in this life ,ever.I am totally accepted forever!!
Do you know what that is like to KNOW that you are loved and accepted by God himself
even when you definately don't deserve it ?!!
I dont have any choice because i know without a shadow of doubt that God is alive and very real .
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Hi all,
I see evolution vs deity has been raised again. This article from the New Scientist mag should help fire the debate.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
bye
I see evolution vs deity has been raised again. This article from the New Scientist mag should help fire the debate.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
bye
I am yet to find one...could you point them out??
Yes but we have the original hebrew and greek texts to go back to. whilst there are many translation errors, at least we know about them now and new translations are appearing frequently. The only real problem faced now is that there are some words in the greek/hebrew that do not have a direct translation into english, so more modern translations like the New English Translation include annotations where there has been a decision made to go one way of the other.
as for multiple authors, correct again - but if you read them together it's incredible how it all works with a common thread. refer to my earlier post with the quote about OT and NT
what the crucifixion story doesn't talk about harsh Roman rule???
The bible contains about 6000 years of human history - the vast majority of that was not under Roman rule, whilst the four Gospels and Acts/Romans and a few others, there are 66 books in the bible by 40 authors over that long time - not even the mighty Roman empire lasted that long.
I understand your points of view - i really do - i was there not all that long ago. It's not about warm fuzzies for me - its about life...it is about a fixed point of reference for life that whatever my situation, wherever I am, however hard life is (and i'm right there at the moment) I have a reference point to refer to that tells me how to react/behave/respond to any situation life throws at me...and for that I am grateful.
The Christian Church is a function of, without doubt, the greatest franchise builder in history; Sual/Paul. His story is that of McDonalds.
Finds a neat little Jewish sect. Sees the value in taking the Jewish God to the punters by virtue of the new Jesus character, steals the program, makes in gentile-friendly ("Hey guys, I've found a way to take the cool bits of Judaism and keep both the ham sandwich and our manly bits intact".) and rewrites the Jews out of deal.
Take Paul's self-serving empire building out of the frame and it would be just a another forgotten messianic sect that arose during the Roman occupation.
Speaking of the Romans....there was a religious approach to the world a man could get into. Theology meets reality TV programming.
