The Big Bad Question.

As far as the earth being millions of years old, I know Australia has been populated by the Europeans for 200 years. I can see all the farmland cleared of trees, mines dug, 1000s of kilometers of rds, Bridges, cities, houses, etc etc, everthing that man has acheived in this country in just 200 years. So people say that the earth is millions and millions of years old, and yet all this has happened in just 200 years? So what makes commonsense? If Australia was even half a million years old she would be overpopulated, out of food, etc.

(Most) christians believe the world is less than 10,000 years old. Not millions.

Most Christians believe we all came from Adam and Eve. Inbred yes, but genetics were perfect then. Gentetics slowly decline and get worse, so if you have inbreeding now, you will get side affects.

Some men early on lived to 700 - 900 years old, because genetics were better.

After the flood God said the average life would be 3 score and 10 years.
Funny that the average life of humans is about 70 years.

Cheers
mono
 
Genisis 5:8 Says Adam had a son called Seth when he was 130 years old. It says Adam lived another 800 years, and had other sons and daughters, besides, Cain,Abel, and Seth. I guess if you lived to 930, you can have a fair few kids.
 
what

on

earth

makes you think that because technology and the economy cause us to build stuff for money instead of need, proves that the world is less that 10,000 years old?

the renaissance period of human history is possibly the era with the biggest expenditure on capital works in human history per capita. aquaducts, sewreage systems, public buildings, royal courts. man "woke up" to the wonders of physics, construction, art, philosophy, biology and astronomy.

people started theorising on micro-organisms and germs and viruses, long before they were actually discovered. people started to theorise on the world's place in the universe - of course the only version acceptable in a very religious society were those that placed the Earth at the centre of the universe, and even then if you dared go outside the accepted number of planets you could be imprisoned as a heathen.

I know Australia has been populated by the Europeans for 200 years. I can see all the farmland cleared of trees, mines dug, 1000s of kilometers of rds, Bridges, cities, houses, etc etc, everthing that man has acheived in this country in just 200 years. So people say that the earth is millions and millions of years old, and yet all this has happened in just 200 years? So what makes commonsense? If Australia was even half a million years old she would be overpopulated, out of food, etc.

the renaissance is 400-600 years ago. the basic construction and design for most roads, bridges, buildings, plumbing and sewerage was pretty much perfected over a course of 150 years. i still use renaissance figures of phi (1.62:1 ratio) to apply to living areas today.

THEN it was implemented here. you make it sound like these kinds of infrastructure have only been discovered, applied and perfected since the colonial times of early 1700s.

Australia had a total of about 1.6 BILLION aboriginies born, raised, procreated and died over 40,000 years - that's an average of about 4000 individuals per annum, but is more likely to be 2000 people pa closer to 40,000 years ago and 8 or 10,000 people per annum closer to colonial times.

if you're trying to tell me that a pre-colonial australia couldn't support these numbers of highly skilled, aware, adept, and ingenious race of humans then i suggest you learn a little more about the history of the Australian Aboriginal before you post any further on the subject.

you bring a level of naivety to the discussion that is both dangerous and inflammatory. whether that is your level of understanding, or just how you type - i wont pass judgement.

as for man being 900 years old 6000 years ago - i find that impossible to believe considering we have more diversification of genetic material now that ever, yet my nonna who lived a meditteranean diet with very little meat only lived to be 102 - active until the day she died.

a 900 yo human being is nearly an age. you're talking like you've just read the Silmarillion.
 
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semantics..
i don't mock people's beliefs.. it's something that is personal to them.. by mocking their belief, you are mocking them..

I work on the assumption that most people who put their beliefs out there are sufficiently secure and intelligent to debate them. Those that can't seperate their beliefs from themselves will either squeal - showing the tenuous nature of their position - or will seek to have them enforced in schools and by armies in the traditional and increasingly popular fashion.

That said, I take it you wouldn't feel comfortable challenging someone who points out that *insert perjorative term for ethnic or racial group here* are lazy and stupid for fear of mocking them?

Or is is just religious and spiritual beliefs that are entitled to protection?

Perhaps property bears should claim their negativity it is a religiously-based view......I look forward to the howls of outrage the next time Shadow gives them a good mocking ;)

My old next-door neighbour used to point out to me that the Jews and Roman Catholics were using Aboriginies to drive down prices in areas they wanted to build churches and synagogues by paying them in drugs and alcohol to commit crimes.

Were his bulls**it beliefs worth challenging or best left alone for fear of causing him some embarrassment?

Dumb concepts, muddle-headed views and offensive theologies or idealogies are just ideas and if they can't stand a bit of mocking they clearly have the strength of wet kleenex and are about as useful.
 
(Most) christians believe the world is less than 10,000 years old. Not millions.

Most Christians believe we all came from Adam and Eve. Inbred yes, but genetics were perfect then. Gentetics slowly decline and get worse, so if you have inbreeding now, you will get side affects.

Some men early on lived to 700 - 900 years old, because genetics were better.

Most Christians don't...many Christian Fundamentalists do.

Not that this changes reality in any way, just thought a correction was in order.
 
I work on the assumption that most people who put their beliefs out there are sufficiently secure and intelligent to debate them. Those that can't seperate their beliefs from themselves will either squeal - showing the tenuous nature of their position - or will seek to have them enforced in schools and by armies in the traditional and increasingly popular fashion.

i think it's fair to do so. if someone is going to air their views, they shoud understand their views.

you wouldn't air your opinion about Sydney's property prices without some sort of justification and understanding.
 
Heard an interesting interview with author Colette Livermore yesterday, (ABC regional vic), talking about her book, "Hope Endures"...her personal journey/trial with faith and religion... there probably is a podcast somewhere of it, here is her book link:

http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Endures-Leaving-Searching-Meaning/dp/1416593616

Excerpt: Product Description

"The searing memoir of an extraordinary woman who served as a nun for eleven years in Mother Teresa's order, Hope Endures is a compelling chronicle of idealistic determination, rigid discipline, and shattering disillusionment. In her life's journey from certainty to doubt, Colette Livermore enters the Missionaries of Charity order in 1973 with unwavering faith and total surrender of her will and intellect after seeing a documentary on the order's work in India. Only eighteen at the time, Livermore has been studying to enter medical school -- a lifelong goal -- but virtually overnight severs her many ties with family, friends, and the life she's known in beautiful, rural New South Wales in order to train as a sister to aid the poor. In the process, she also gives herself over to the order's unexpectedly severe, ascetic regime, which demands blind obedience and submission."

A really interesting talk between Kathy Bedford, (ABC presenter) and Dr Livermore, (she went on to do her medical degree).
 
Its funny that when people debate Christianity they almost always focus on one issue. Creation. That's the first few pages of the Bible.

You know, that's all the Jewish part of the Bible, but people always link creation with Christians, not Jews. I never hear anyone say that Judaism is silly because they believe the world is 5000 years old.

The part where Christianity starts is the New Testament. So if you want to debate Christianity, why not start there instead?

Most Christians (I think you'll find) do not take the creation part literally. Of course, many do.

I hope this thread doesnt get out of control. I recently saw a similar thread elsewhere that went to 1000 posts!
 
i believe any Creationism theory is silly - but the Jews aren't trying to get "intelligent design" held in the same accord as science. why any Jew would even entertain the notion of debunking science has got me perplexed...!

the "many that do" take Creationism literally are most ill-educated and the most vocal.

however, it's good to remind us of the roots of Christianity - that is, Judaism.

is there anyone on here who can help with the Muslim understanding of the version of events surrounding Man's existence and beginnings? i suppose that'll open a whole new kettle of fish but it would be interesting to see if that too is linked to Judaism or similar theory.
 
is there anyone on here who can help with the Muslim understanding of the version of events surrounding Man's existence and beginnings? i suppose that'll open a whole new kettle of fish but it would be interesting to see if that too is linked to Judaism or similar theory.

I was going to confirm with my son in law, a Turkish Muslim, (yep, I've got my very own Muslim to quizz! :) ), but I've bothered him with lots of Q & A sessions since he's been in the family and didn't want to just quote him, so instead grabbed some bits and pieces off the net that are in keeping with what he's told me.

Islamic creationism is the belief that the universe (including humanity) was directly created by God as explained in the Qur'an or Genesis. While contemporary Islam tends to take religious texts literally, it usually views Genesis as a corrupted version of God's message. The creation accounts in the Qur'an are more vague and allow for a wider range of interpretations similar to those in other Abrahamic religions. Several liberal movements within Islam generally accept the scientific positions on the age of the earth, the age of the universe and evolution.

Islam was begun early in the 7th century by a man named Muhammad. He claimed to have been visited by the angel Gabriel. During these angelic visitations, which continued for about 23 years until Muhammad's death, the angel purportedly revealed to Muhammad the words of God (called “Allah” in Arabic and by Muslims). These dictated revelations comprise the Qur'an, Islam's holy book. The key beliefs of Islam are that Allah is the only true God and that Muhammad was Allah's prophet. By simply stating these beliefs, a person can convert to Islam. The word Muslim means "one who submits to Allah." Compared to Christianity, Islam has several similarities but significant differences. Like Christianity, Islam is monotheistic (belief in one God), but it rejects the concept of the Trinity. Islam accepts certain portions of the Bible, such as parts of the Law and the Gospels, but rejects the majority of it as slanderous and uninspired.

Islam claims that Jesus was a mere prophet—not God’s Son (only Allah is God, Muslims believe, and how could He have a Son?). Rather, Islam asserts that Jesus, though born of a virgin, was created just as Adam—from the dust of the earth. They do believe in the Adam & Eve concept of creationism. Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross. Although denied by Islam, the Trinity and Christ’s redemption on the cross are central to Christianity.

Finally, Islam teaches that paradise is gained through good works and obedience to the Qur'an. The Bible, in contrast, reveals that man cannot measure up to the holy God. Only because of His mercy and love can sinners be saved through faith in Christ, who fulfilled the Law in the place of those who would believe in Him (Ephesians 2:8-9; Matthew 5:17). Therefore, Islam and Christianity cannot both be true. One is God’s Word and one is not. The truth has eternal consequences.
_____________________________________________________________
There's a series just started on the History Channel (Foxtel/Optus) called Children of Abraham (I record the 12.30am Monday timeslot - not sure when/if it's repeated elsewhere through the week.) "This series embarks on a journey around the world to explore the shared roots and deep enmities of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths and to discover if there is hope in a shared future." I enjoyed the first episode and it's quite fitting that it should be screening now at the same time as this thread.

Covered in the first episode, amongst other things, was the reason for the animosity between Jews and Muslims.

Abraham is widely regarded as the patriarch of monotheism (belief in one god) which the big 3 religions believe in. The animosity between Muslims & Jews can be traced back to Abraham. His wife (Sarah) bore him no children for many years so he had a son (Ishmael) with his servant Hagar. Then his wife fell pregnant and bore him a son - Isaac. She talked Abraham into banishing Hagar and Ishmael. The Jews are descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac. The Arabs are descendants of Abraham’s son Ishmael. With Ishmael being the son of a slave woman (Genesis 16:1-16) and Isaac being the promised son who would inherit the promises to Abraham (Genesis 21:1-3), animosity between the two sons was almost inevitable.
 
Religions

Great old Thread guys !

I've found that "Religion" is a set of rules that man
trys to follow to try and be "good enough" to be accepted by God .

The thing I discovered was that God's original plan was to give us the "Laws "to help us live a better life and protect us but also to ensure we knew that gods standards are perfect ,but also to show us that its impossible for man to follow the "Laws" commandments fully.(shown through human experience)

So Gods plan in knowing this from the begining was to send Jesus later to fulfill that law (standards)by dieing for people and to show us that no one can be "good enough" for Gods perfect standards by earning or working for it through any belief set or religion or "good living".
Jesus said that all have sinned and fall short of Gods standards (.eg-
Even if a man looks at a woman lustfully in his heart he has committed adultery - broken the commandment)
Then we have the choice to either accept "Gods mercy and grace" ( giving us the free gift of being right with him ),through believing and knowing Jesus .

I used to live a "religous life" which was a life of constantly not feeling good enough . I found religion could never be satisfied because i had never known whether i had done enough. I never felt any acceptance.

Once i found out that God knew from the beginning that religion would never satisfy the soul ,and that he had planned to send Jesus to earth
to pay that price of sin for us since the beggining of time,(so people could be at peace with God) my life changed from that day onwards.

He totally transformed me on the inside, because now i know that as im on the journey, im not perfect,but i am accepted by God.

Hope this helps someone !

PS. Bluecard i just realised i hadnt answered yr original question.
"i certainly dont want to challenge anyone's faith, i believe it to be a beatiful thing. i just wish that sometimes i could have a bit too"

The best thing to do mate is to ask God for faith. It will actually surprise you what doors will open up .
kind regards
 
Last edited:
Great old Thread guys !

I've found that "Religion" is a set of rules that man
trys to follow to try and be "good enough" to be accepted by God .

The thing I discovered was that God's original plan was to give us the "Laws "to help us live a better life and protect us but also to ensure we knew that gods standards are perfect ,but also to show us that its impossible for man to follow the "Laws" commandments fully.(shown through human experience)

So Gods plan in knowing this from the begining was to send Jesus later to fulfill that law (standards)by dieing for people and to show us that no one can be "good enough" for Gods perfect standards by earning or working for it through any belief set or religion or "good living".
Jesus said that all have sinned and fall short of Gods standards (.eg-
Even if a man looks at a woman lustfully in his heart he has committed adultery - broken the commandment)
Then we have the choice to either accept "Gods mercy and grace" ( giving us the free gift of being right with him ),through believing and knowing Jesus .

I used to live a "religous life" which was a life of constantly not feeling good enough . I found religion could never be satisfied because i had never known whether i had done enough. I never felt any acceptance.

Once i found out that God knew from the beginning that religion would never satisfy the soul ,and that he had planned to send Jesus to earth
to pay that price of sin for us since the beggining of time,(so people could be at peace with God) my life changed from that day onwards.

He totally transformed me on the inside, because now i know that as im on the journey, im not perfect,but i am accepted by God.

Hope this helps someone !

PS. Bluecard i just realised i hadnt answered yr original question.
"i certainly dont want to challenge anyone's faith, i believe it to be a beatiful thing. i just wish that sometimes i could have a bit too"

The best thing to do mate is to ask God for faith. It will actually surprise you what doors will open up .
kind regards

Which god are you talking about?
 
If yr question is asking
"which God do you ask for faith?"

- It doesnt matter as God knows who he is .
All you need to do is just say something like
"God I really want to have faith and believe but i just cant ,help me,
reveal yr self to me "
or it could be
"God Help"
whatever !
as God is looking for the heart above our words.
 
was wondering how long it would be before this old chestnut would come up again - another 1000 posts i see before us, with the two sides as evenly distributed and equally passionate then as now.

oh well, I am in my armchair and look forward to the discussion!!:p
 
funny - i just posted this up to crapbook this morning

if Man (a) is made in the Image (b) of God (c), or (a² + b² = c²), then God must be made in the Image of Man (c² = b² + a²) - which would imply that God is a creation of Man. But if (a² + b² = c²), then the triangle - or trinity - is whole, which would then imply that every Man is a God because a triangle cannot exist without either (a), (b) or (c).
 
Uncle Perce,

Once i found out that God knew from the beginning that religion would never satisfy the soul ,and that he had planned to send Jesus to earth
to pay that price of sin for us since the beggining of time

God told you this?? or did a man tell you this??

bye
 
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