What is wrong with tradies??

[Ocean Architect]

You are ignoring the fact it is $500 for 8 billable hours. Totally different to $500 for all days.

If people think a tradie is earning too much then the simple answer is to go and do it themselves. Many people don't have the capability of being a tradie, let alone a self employed one I've seen many fail over the years haha.

I pay my contractor programmers $880 per day and all the tools they need are a laptop not my $100k vans and tools. If they can get it well done to them!

I am not ignoring that fact. I've done it. Most of my family and friends do it. It isn't doom and gloom.

My DJs charge $150-180/hr but at least at the end of the gig we all get together and remark on how fortunate we are, not this "oh, it's not that much money" stuff.

 

[weg]

$500 a day is a lot of money IF it was for a 5 day week with no quoting, paperwork, holdups, or outgoing expenses.

Oh, and you got paid sick leave, holidays and Workcover.

Did I just discribe a PAYE job where someone else worries about the expense, risk, finding the work, overall business, etc .

$500 a day is rarely $500 a day.

 

[b simpson]

I am not ignoring that fact. I've done it. Most of my family and friends do it. It isn't doom and gloom.

I'm not complaining. I am getting the same $$'s as I was as project manager using similar skills.

Just sick of people whinging about tradies pay. I don't begrudge any professional and what they earn. If a salesperson earns over $300k per year (and I know some) well done to them

btw I paid $400 worth of parking tickets today for an employee who has been fired and due to circumstances I am personally liable...grrrr, bloody employees...

 

[The Fuzz]

I'm going to be really blunt about this, and you probably wont like it.

I have a bachelors degree in pharmacy. I was in university for 4 years living in semi poverty. Pharmacists must undergo continuing education. Pharmacists pay thousands in ongoing insurance and licensing fees. Pharmacists, by and large, are paid a little over $30 per hour. I left my profession to pursue building because I could not justify the economic outcomes that went in pharmacy as compared to construction. What kind of twilight zone do we live in when that kind of thing happens?

So yes, $500 a day is a lot. A Hell of a lot. The tradesmen that I deal with are borderline retarded. They do light physical labour that isn't terribly different to the exertions of a standard factory worker or storeman and receive far superior renumeration.

I get very annoyed at the sense of entitlement had by some tradesman, who are completely detatched from the lot of people outside the construction game, particularly in professional services. It is socially unconscionable that someone painting a wall with an IQ of 90 is being paid more than a doctor who has plowed 6 years of their life and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into education, who has to slave away for several years more before they reach wage parity with a painter or tiler or cabinet maker. You have a warehouse, they have a study or office. You have a phone, they have a phone. You do quotes for free, they study medical journals for free. You have cars, they have cars. You have insurance, they have insurance. Tradesmen are NOT special.

Also, when you're making $500 a day, you only have to work a couple of days before making the average Australian wage, when others work 5 days or more for that thousand bucks.

You can try to justify it with all sorts of unpaid expenses and blee blee blah blah but the bottom line is that most of the tradies I know are driving $80 000+ cars, blowing hundreds a weekend on drugs/alcohol/clothes, regularly holiday, or are well ahead in the property game, while those in other industries with far higher obstacles to entry are renting, budgeting, driving secondhand cars, and are otherwise economically eclipsed by tradies who whine like jet engines whilst proudly proclaiming that they don't get out of bed for less than $400 a day.

I'm an opportunist. I grew up in a building family. I've done the tradie thing, the white collar thing, the small business thing (ongoing) and the developer thing, so this isn't a rant against one or the other industry - since when building slows, I'll dip back into pharmacy or whatever. This is simply a statement of common sense, and social fairness - when tradesmen who are flat out passing high school have a better standard of living than the best and brightest in society and make ludicrous statements that making half the average weekly Aussie wage in a day "isn't a lot of money", it makes them sounds like spoilt, unappreciative brats as detatched from the rest of us as they are devoid of common sense.

"$500 a day isn't a lot of money" what a load of pus.

Very well said and has put this discussion into perspective

 

[Ocean Architect]

I'm not complaining. I am getting the same $$'s as I was as project manager using similar skills.

Just sick of people whinging about tradies pay. I don't begrudge any professional and what they earn. If a salesperson earns over $300k per year (and I know some) well done to them

btw I paid $400 worth of parking tickets today for an employee who has been fired and due to circumstances I am personally liable...grrrr, bloody employees...

Eh the same people who whinge about tradies pay are the same ones gloating about the $30k reno pumping their house price up by $100k.

The way I run my businesses is to state flatly "anyone who brings value to the table gets equal value in return" and don't begrudge people for the money they make (since if they make money, it means that they made me money). I'm simply not a fan of people who lose grounding. I had a DJ whine about $80/hr not being enough for getting drunk and having girls paw all over him when he was working for 600pw in an office. I was like "dude, you're making your weekly wage in a night, getting drunk for free, and harrassed by girls for doing what you do in your bedroom every afternoon - what's not to like?".

Idiot. No wonder he's always broke

 

[TAB_DR]

Also, when you're making $500 a day, you only have to work a couple of days before making the average Australian wage, when others work 5 days or more for that thousand bucks.

Im sure you understand what overheads are.

When someone charges you $500 for the days work. do you think this goes straight in his pocket.

Ill break it down easy for you just as an example. without going into to much detail.

500 days pay.

-35 per hour or 280 per day for burden expenses. insurance , warehouse, running of the car, replacing tools, quoting that sort of stuff.

This is bare minimum it really cost more.
comes down to 220 per day. for a weeks work he is getting $1100 before tax

Would you prefer he said, ill charge you $27.5 per hour for labor and $35 for overheads.

And the average Australian does not have the extra cost of running there own business

Everyone is entitled to the views.

With your comparison between being a pharmacist and Trade(I am a sparky)
It all comes down to supply and demand. If you where in high demand you could charge a premium for your service.

Yes I think you are underpaid and should get more as well

A lot has to do, as someone said early trade schools being shut down(vic) not sure about the other states, and the schools in the 90s really pushing higher education and pushing people away from trades.

Which is why there is a shortage of tradespeople.

Im not saying we deserve more then you. there are just a lot of factors in charging out labor. This is one of the main reasons most of the people just starting out in running there own business go bust early cause they really under estimate the costs involved.

 

[Monopoly]

Monopoly, it may not be you at all like you say. Sometimes it's your suburb, your voice(posh etc.), or maybe your just unlucky!

But don't give up. Talk to friends about recommendations. Don't talk to the master builders or HIA, they'll only give you a list of their members without vetting any.

LOL...Wayfarer, thanks your comments...

The suburb will vary depending on the property where the work needs doing. Generally I will only ever ring a "local" because as I said, I wouldn't expect a tradie (or anyone for that matter) to travel half way across town just to do a job for me (regardless of the size). The reaction for any property address has always been the same, whether its for eg. Sorrento, Mt Martha or Frankston.

The sound of my voice ie. posh, now that made me chuckle. I don't sound posh, in fact, I'm probably the most down-to-earth sounding person you'll ever speak to.

And thanks for the tip Wayfarer, I'll definitely keep trying.

I can't promise I won't get upset about it though, it is so damn frustrating, but I can and do appreciate that it's just as hard for tradies especially for those who do the right thing, go out to quote a job only to be turned down or get the job only to be stuffed around and treated like crap!! That is inexcusable!!

All I'm saying (to any tradie out there) not all your customers are out to rip you off or waste your time, so please don't do it to us either.

 

[Sunfish]

I am an electronics tradesman, not in the building trades, but for all my years in the workforce tradesmen were under paid and treated like chit.

The worm turns. A leckie contractor I've known for decades smiled at me a few years ago and said: "I'm finally getting paid what I'm worth". Now when a tradesman concedes he is being well paid we are entitled to put a capital "W" on that.

But you reap as you sow. Uni grads grabbed all the cash in the last decades of the last century but most could not start their motor mower. This century, Arts grads are flipping burgers while "can do" people (sorry Cambell) are moving the coal, iron ore and all the other things which keep Oz solvent.

And their efforts are appreciated.

 

[Monopoly]

But it could all turn around and bite them on the a$$ when cheap labour and skilled workers are brought in from overseas and our local boys are left begging for work.

 

[Cupcakes]

Geeeez you only got $30 per hour as a pharmacist? I know girls working as pharmacy assistants who get paid $21 (more when they have a few years experience or become dispensary techs) normal rate, $30ph on Saturdays and after 5pm on week days and $40 ph on Sundays. They make more money working in Pharmacy than they did in their professional jobs and they aren't even pharmacists!!! They have to work long/weird hours, but you don't even need VCE to do it.

I thought the biggest risk to tradies was when clients don't pay or they go bankrupt and can't pay. From the few tradies I know this happens a lot.

 

[Sunfish]

But it could all turn around and bite them on the a$$ when cheap labour and skilled workers are brought in from overseas and our local boys are left begging for work.

China is producing literally millions of graduates in the HARD subjects of maths and science. Why are our grads immune?

 

[Monopoly]

China is producing literally millions of graduates in the HARD subjects of maths and science. Why are our grads immune?

I wasn't referring to our grads.

 

[rugrat]

I don't have a problem paying a tradie, so long as I am aware of the costs beforehand. I have no problem paying for time and effort put in by someone else. Generally I am calling a tradie because my DH and myself are not qualified, don't have the skills, or simply don't want to do the task, so I expect to pay someone who can and is willing to do it. Just like any other service.

 

[weg]

Eh the same people who whinge about tradies pay are the same ones gloating about the $30k reno pumping their house price up by $100k.

I don't think many here are complaining about what tradies charge. Those that are remind me of those complaining that rents are too high.

The comparison you make about others making $1000 for 5 days or more is also a bit inaccurate when you aren't comparing with anyone skilled or educated. How many educated highly skilled adults make 52K?

May have to tell hubby to not feel bad about raising his prices again, and moreso for PI who don't actually do anything but collect rent .

 

[Ocean Architect]

Im sure you understand what overheads are.

When someone charges you $500 for the days work. do you think this goes straight in his pocket.

Ill break it down easy for you just as an example. without going into to much detail.

500 days pay.

-35 per hour or 280 per day for burden expenses. insurance , warehouse, running of the car, replacing tools, quoting that sort of stuff.

This is bare minimum it really cost more.
comes down to 220 per day. for a weeks work he is getting $1100 before tax

Would you prefer he said, ill charge you $27.5 per hour for labor and $35 for overheads.

And the average Australian does not have the extra cost of running there own business

Everyone is entitled to the views.

With your comparison between being a pharmacist and Trade(I am a sparky)
It all comes down to supply and demand. If you where in high demand you could charge a premium for your service.

Yes I think you are underpaid and should get more as well

A lot has to do, as someone said early trade schools being shut down(vic) not sure about the other states, and the schools in the 90s really pushing higher education and pushing people away from trades.

Which is why there is a shortage of tradespeople.

Im not saying we deserve more then you. there are just a lot of factors in charging out labor. This is one of the main reasons most of the people just starting out in running there own business go bust early cause they really under estimate the costs involved.

2 things

1) You're still getting stuck on the details and not looking at the big picture - and the big picture is that boneheads working as tradies are doing better than people in my former profession by miles. Overhead this warehouse that, bottom line is that they're doing better. End of story.

2) I know tradies on day rates in excess of $500 a day. My painter quoted me $9000 to paint a brand new rendered 2BR single floor apartment with 7 doors/doorframes and total meterage 135m. One guy should be able to do the whole thing solo in under a week (I'll put it at 5 days) with total material cost $600. That's $8400 to do less than a weeks worth. I don't care about your overheads, that's bloody good money.

So let's not get stuck on this $500 figure either, same concept as focussing on overheads. The proof is in the pudding - these guys are making a killing no matter which way you slice it.

(Just as a reminder, I still take on jobs by the way. I'm not some bitter whinger )

 

[Ocean Architect]

But it could all turn around and bite them on the a$$ when cheap labour and skilled workers are brought in from overseas and our local boys are left begging for work.

Happening already.

 

[Monopoly]

Happening already.

Yes I know, and that's why I said that it will turn around, it may take a while but it will definitely happen!!

I wasn't referring to our uni grads, I was referring to our trade students who will be struggling to get work here once they get through their measley paid apprenticeships.

 

[Ocean Architect]

Geeeez you only got $30 per hour as a pharmacist? I know girls working as pharmacy assistants who get paid $21 (more when they have a few years experience or become dispensary techs) normal rate, $30ph on Saturdays and after 5pm on week days and $40 ph on Sundays. They make more money working in Pharmacy than they did in their professional jobs and they aren't even pharmacists!!! They have to work long/weird hours, but you don't even need VCE to do it.

I thought the biggest risk to tradies was when clients don't pay or they go bankrupt and can't pay. From the few tradies I know this happens a lot.

4 years of uni and the preregistered pharmacist rate was $11/hr. First year out you're looking at about $24/hr for a major chain. Then it creeps up a few bucks a year and settles in the low 30s. If you're somewhere like Darwin it hits 30ish right away and goes up to 40ish or whatever you can negotiate.

Grads are moving from Adelaide to Brisbane because they can't find traineeships. There are those who get more, and others who get less. I havn't touched it in 4 years or so, so things may have changed, but given the number of private pharmacies that are being eaten alive by large box stores (discount warehouse etc) we're going down the path of the UK - everything run by big box stores, with pharmacists working as glorified shopkeepers for scum money.

When I first decided to get into it in about '95, pharmacists were making a killing - $80/hr on weekends in '95 dollars.

I still cop it from my family about not working as one. Yeah right. You go work in a tiny dispensary for 10 hours a day when you can't leave the pharmacy without shutting the doors (no pharmacist = no open) plus get there early plus leave late plus deal with sick people all day plus if you make a mistake you get fined and go to court for scum money and see how you like it, especially when your friends little brother who just turned 21 starts his own concreting company and buys a statesman and pulls up next to you at the lights when you're in your corolla

It was all for the best, I suppose. I'm not what you'd call "an easily manageable employee"

 

[Ocean Architect]

Yes I know, and that's why I said that it will turn around, it may take a while but it will definitely happen!!

I wasn't referring to our Arts or Social Science uni grads, I was referring to our trade students who will be struggling to get work here once they get through their measley paid apprenticeships.

Oh you mean the end game I was talking about tradesmen begging for work because of the influx of foreign workers. Darwin is a small place in close proximity to asia, and so we're a bit of a canary in the coal mine - trades are taking a hammering with every fluctuation in the market.

The problem is that wither wasted the money they've been making or are badly overleveraged. I don't want to see anyone go bankrupt of course, but as per the original statement that started this mess of a thread, I think that downward pressure on wages/contracts is a good thing for the country, the economy, and paradoxically, the trades themselves

 

[TAB_DR]

the big picture is that boneheads working as tradies are doing better than people in my former profession by miles.

Its this sort of attitude that makes me glad us boneheads are making good money. my IQ is only slightly higher then 90, 93 to be exact

The reason why I was using 500 as an example was because its the figure you used.

Why all the hate for someone making money who has not gone to university.

I did my 4 years at trade school, passed my 3 exams to get my license and have done other courses at night to further my skills.

Why should you make more money then me.

I have a skill and license that you don't and cant do(legally) so you have to pay to get it done. The good thing about my trade is that its regulated and overseas labor cant just come in a cut prices down.

I hope you don't let all your tradesman know what you think of them, or they will all charge you like the painter did