White guilt and racism double-standards

When Australia has several cultures represented by political parties competing to preserve their culture, and the ABC has a weather girl in a hijab, then we might be approaching multiculturalism.

One of the strenths of our immigration program is its diversity; Australia has taken a little bit from each continent rather than a very high proportion from one or two countries, language or religious groups (not like some European countries which took in large numbers of 'guest workers' from former colonies or the US a century before).

While nearly half of our population are either migrants or first generation, an ethnically-based political party won't work at the state and federal level as different groups don't necessarily all get along. And what language would they need to use to communicate with other ethnic groups? English!

So ethnic politics is largely done within branches of the mainstream parties rather than seperately. And our voting system with single member electorates and two strong parties encourages this.

It's not like Canada where there are large geographic concentrations of a group (French) that are linguistically different from the rest of the country, or large American cities with Black or Hispanic majorities (though note that these can also be diverse). Ditto for Malaysia or Fiji where there are 2 or 3 big groups that by themselves are numerically big enough to divide a country. It is this factor that gives rise to division more than the proportion of people born outside the country.

Whether through design or accident, diversity is something Australia has done well in that no one ethnic group is big enough to divide a country (especially with single member electorates where the major parties have to 'catch all' to win votes).

The multicultural intellectual Left (as opposed to the anti-immigration greenie Left, who vote Green or Kelvin Thompson) sometimes criticise Liberal governments (eg the previous PM) on immigration. Liberal politicians when in opposition have sometimes warned about immigration (eg Howard in 1988) so they get the 'racist' tag.

However history has proved that when in office Liberal governments are usually high immigration governments (eg Menzies, Gorton & Howard with Fraser the main exception). Certainly business groups have nothing to lose from higher immigration/household formation; the first homebuyer might beg to differ.

Whereas those governments whose ministers or prime ministers have championed multiculturalism the most, eg Whitlam/Grasby (but more Al as Gough didn't particularly like South Vietnamese), Fraser and Keating have all been low immigration governments. The economy could also be blamed - 1975, 1982 and the early 1990s were recession years when those PMs were in office and immigration tends to drop or be cut then.

Hence the relationship between immigration and multiculturalism is not as straightforward as made out to be, even though it's linked in the public debate.

As for the ABC, is that relevant?

A better measure of diversity is not who presents the weather on the ABC (do many non-UK migrants watch it?) but the number of satellite dishes.

For this allows reception of overseas TV. It's not like in the old days when you just had the choice of 3 or 4 local TV stations - all in English. With satellite people can maintain their language and culture, and if that's all they do (like the unemployed underclasses in outer Paris) then they can live their whole life without learning much French or engaging in mainstream society.

A lot of commercial programming is driven by ratings and advertising. The ethnic media is widely read but is often 'under the radar' as far as advertising goes. And, due to Australia's framentation of language groups individually it is small but collectivity it's reasonably substantial.

Something might rate the most popular but in a diverse pluralistic society it might not rate a majority. Much like the penetration of the major newpapers and TV networks (especially in the USA where cable is big) people still watch/read but they don't command the majorities like they did 30-40 years ago.
 
OK, I'm going to say something that's obviously going to sound completely outrageous. But why shouldn't foreigners be expected to integrate? I don't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't go to another country (to live, not to just visit) without learning the language and respecting their culture. If I did not respect their culture and their values I simply would not go there. Why can't people from other countries pay us the same respect?

Some foreigners don't learn how to speak English because their was/is no need for them to do so. My mum is an perfect example, she has been in Australia for over 15 years and does not know how to speak english at all. Why? Because to her their was no need to learn it, shes never had to work a day in her life since arriving in australia, shes a stay at home mum hence no point to her in learing it. Just because they don't learn it does not mean they do not respect our culture as their are many reasons are to why. Another point some foreigners are just not capable of learing how to speak it. I for one know their is no way in hell my mum would ever be able to learn how to speak english no matter how hard she tried!!!!! I try to teach her a few words here an their at times, hell she even askes me often how do say x in english or she will read a word somewhere and ask me what it means but at the end of the day it just does not stick in her head!
 
See that's just foreign to me. I just can't imagine living in another country and not speaking their language. I would want to embrace their culture as much as possible otherwise I can't imagine why you'd go there. And if you didn't speak the language, that would surely have to have a major impact on your integration into society. You wouldn't be able to befriend many of the locals which I would think would be very hard. Not saying it's wrong to not learn the language, it's just not something I'd do.
 
See that's just foreign to me. I just can't imagine living in another country and not speaking their language. I would want to embrace their culture as much as possible otherwise I can't imagine why you'd go there. And if you didn't speak the language, that would surely have to have a major impact on your integration into society. You wouldn't be able to befriend many of the locals which I would think would be very hard. Not saying it's wrong to not learn the language, it's just not something I'd do.

Cant imagine why you would go their? Why don't you try being stuck in the middle of a war and wanting to do best for your family by getting out, then just maybe you will know why!
 
See that was exactly the point of me saying that my first statement was going to sound completely outrageous. When I wrote that, I was just thinking more of people who come here by choice, not those who have to come here due to things such as war. No, -I can't imagine what they're going through, and no I can't say I'd want to live through what they have gone through. But they're are not the people I'm talking about and I hope you haven't taken offence to what I have said. I purely meant the people that choose to come here of their own free will. Anyway, it's all just my personal opinion, and in the big scheme of things it counts for nothing. I'm going to step out of this conversation now before I put my foot even further in the hole.
 
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Cant imagine why you would go their? Why don't you try being stuck in the middle of a war and wanting to do best for your family by getting out, then just maybe you will know why!

I just wish that people from other countries wouldn't bring their wars into our country.
 
Well i can't speak for those ******s! But i know their are alot of migrants that have left all that crap behind! My family for one!
 
See that was exactly the point of me saying that my first statement was going to sound completely outrageous. .

I agree with your first statement. The idea of going to live in another country, not matter what the circumstances, and then not participating in the host country's culture, or even trying to learn the language, is completely baffling.
 
Well i can't speak for those ******s! But i know their are alot of migrants that have left all that crap behind! My family for one!

That's good to hear, and was probably hard to do. Unfortunately a lot of your countrymen seem to be passionately embroiled in bygone battles. Given the history of the area it's understandable I guess, but it sure would be nice if the younger generation can start afresh and try not to pass down centuries old bitterness and feuding.
 
Cant imagine why you would go their? Why don't you try being stuck in the middle of a war and wanting to do best for your family by getting out, then just maybe you will know why!

Nikolina, I think what was being referenced in the quote was why would anyone want to live in another country and not learn the language and culture.

I was sent to live in Malaysia when I was in the RAAF and went native. Learnt as much of the language (Bahasa Malayu) as possible as well as some Hindu and Chinese and used to hang out in night clubs where all of the locals hung out, quite often I would be the only white person there.
Made lots of friends with the locals.
Yet there were people whose only contact with the locals was because their maid was Indian. I couldn't understand that at all
 
That's good to hear, and was probably hard to do. Unfortunately a lot of your countrymen seem to be passionately embroiled in bygone battles. Given the history of the area it's understandable I guess, but it sure would be nice if the younger generation can start afresh and try not to pass down centuries old bitterness and feuding.

Well it sure as hell is not understandable to me. You have youths acting like total imbeciles, its like they think they have something to prove, their is no need for their disgraceful behaviour, it gives the rest of us a bad reputation and no doubt these youths causing all the trouble that you see at the soccer or tennis etc were all born in Australia. Its ***** me to the extreme. Wish the lot of them would grow the **** up! This is just one of manhy reasons why i don't associate with my culture in the community! Wish the lot of them would wake the **** up!
 
As a part of a "multicultural family" (Spanish speaking wife) I have met the whole gamut with respect to English language skills. And I can see and understand the reasons why some people do and some people do not choose to speak English.

It is their choice as to what they do. If, for instance, the situations were changed I might have problems. I can understand and (just) make myself understood in Spanish.

But, for instance, my daughter is going out with a Serb guy. If she chose to start a family in Serbia, at 56yo, it might be a problem if we chose to go there.

Many new starters do have difficulty with English.

Part of the problem is the English language itself. Especially spelling.

Another part is the Australian pronunciation. It can be very difficult to understand the way Australians pronounce things. I have a friend from Mexico who is studying English as a second language at university. It is very difficult for her, as by definition, none of the other students speaks much English at all, let alone as a second language. And non of them has any exposure at all to the way Australians speak and mutilate the language.

But another part is just the desire to be comfortable with the language you know well. Especially if there are groups around who share the old language. More so with older people.

So it can be very difficult for some people to speak, and to understand, English.
 
Well, nicolina, I'm about to reveal something about myself...

I am an English language teacher. And one thing I will say is most native speakers of English are absolutely shocking at trying to teach non-native speakers, which is understandable. I may have a body, but that doesn't make me a doctor. Same with language.

Sure, I have met some students who seem incapable of learning, but that's either because they secretly detest language learning, or because they have learning difficulties.

The irony is that I don't ever tell my students they should learn English, I tell them that if they're going to invest their time and money into it, they better have a damn good reason that motivates them.

BTW, there are free English lessons for migrants. But if your mum can do what she needs to do, and she's happy, then why learn? It could be a big time expense for a small benefit. Having said that, she might have some trouble if there was an emergency and the triple 0 operator has no idea what she's saying. So if I'm the one who needs the help, I hope your mum doesn't find me first, lol.
 
lol,

Now I feel bad Gary re: my punctuation of my email. :)

Well, nicolina, I'm about to reveal something about myself...

I am an English language teacher. And one thing I will say is most native speakers of English are absolutely shocking at trying to teach non-native speakers, which is understandable. I may have a body, but that doesn't make me a doctor. Same with language.

Sure, I have met some students who seem incapable of learning, but that's either because they secretly detest language learning, or because they have learning difficulties.

The irony is that I don't ever tell my students they should learn English, I tell them that if they're going to invest their time and money into it, they better have a damn good reason that motivates them.

BTW, there are free English lessons for migrants. But if your mum can do what she needs to do, and she's happy, then why learn? It could be a big time expense for a small benefit. Having said that, she might have some trouble if there was an emergency and the triple 0 operator has no idea what she's saying. So if I'm the one who needs the help, I hope your mum doesn't find me first, lol.
 
Lol, don't worry about it Nathan, I'm a traitor to my profession. I see language as a tool, not an art form. Sure, i love great books, poetry and works of literature, but unless you're trying to write one of those, it really doesn't matter, so long as your audience understands you then you're using the tool correctly.

I can't stand grammar policing, it's just small mindedness in general. It's also a way of feeling superior to someone who's better at something than you. And I usually associate it with being smug.

Sure, I teach my students the correct stuff, but sometimes they ask me about the difference between say: a philips head screwdriver or just saying "screwdriver", if it's a Japanese girl who wants to be a psychologist I say: "Don't worry about it, it isn't important, you might only need to say this once, so when you get to super advanced level, then I'll tell you the difference".

Language is just a tool for the most part and I don't like it when people use it to make others feel inferior, or try to.
 
Ditto for Malaysia or Fiji where there are 2 or 3 big groups that by themselves are numerically big enough to divide a country. It is this factor that gives rise to division more than the proportion of people born outside the country.

And there's my POV in a nutshell Peter.

If a country has 2 or more equally sized cultural groups, history shows it is most likely to split the country. I can't think of one country that has peaceful co-existing equally sized cultural groups. Malaysia, Fiji, Canada.......none of these grant the various cultures within their borders equal power.

There needs to be one dominating culture, (in population, and economic and political power) for different cultures to co-exist in reasonable peace.

And when one culture dominates, other cultures are nothing more than disenfranchised colorful curio value for the dominant culture.

And it is a little cute and naive to say that's multiculturalism.

So, like most, Australia likes its multiculturalism delivered as a feast for the senses......and nothing else. We arent really interested in adopting other culture's religion, historical perspective, laws, or more discplined lifestyle and work ethic.......just bring the quaint accents, exotic cuisine, colorful clothing, and folk dancing, so we can enjoy it with a cold tinnie.
 
We aren't multicultural like the USA, Canada, England, or Malaysia.
We don't have a significant non anglo culture that represents a sizeable portion of our population, like the USA.

Canada has a significant portion of French speaking. We have nothing like that.
.

You can have them all if you want.(speaking of the French)
They want to be treated differently than the rest of Canada. I'm speaking of Quebec.There laws are even different .That province isn't even bilingual. The only province that is officially bilingual is New Brunswick.Quebec wants to continously separate from Canada. I say let them go,,,just pay off your debts to the rest of Canada first.
 
I think some form of racism may exist in most countries to some degree, but it irks me when I hear (and I have heard this) a foreigner (that may have even been born here but have a different nationality in their heritage)call someone of Anglo-saxon appearance, an "Aussie xxxx insert any expletive here xxx", in this country.

Regards
Marty
 
So, like most, Australia likes its multiculturalism delivered as a feast for the senses......and nothing else. We arent really interested in adopting other culture's religion, historical perspective, laws, or more discplined lifestyle and work ethic.......just bring the quaint accents, exotic cuisine, colorful clothing, and folk dancing, so we can enjoy it with a cold tinnie.

I think multiculturalism is not wanting to "adopt" other cultures' religion, historical perspective, laws or lifestyle and work ethic, but to "accept" it and get on with how we do things without criticising them for being different.

I'm not particularly comfortable around different cultures because I don't understand them, and worry that I would inadvertently say something to offend them. That doesn't mean I don't accept them and their differences.
 
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