Will resi really continue to double every 10 years?

This is just posturing on the part of China. They could diversify now - they don't need IMF SDR's to do that. But they don't - they keep buying $US assets.

Here's a compelling financialsense.com interview with Richard Karn regarding the lack of fiscal responsibility fiat currencies allow, in perpetuating global currency wars.

He reckons China isn't interested in resolving trade issues due to USD manipulation by Obama printing presses. Rather China just want more power to manipulate global trade to their advantage.

Karn reckons the safest way to go is to peg currencies across the world to gold or a bundle of metals.

A very insightful listen.
 
Re: services economy good or bad.. Services provide jobs->jobs provide income->income provides capacity to spend->capacity to spend drives economy and pay back debt??

The merit of housing as being 'non-productive' could be argued I guess. While it may not be directly productive outside the construction industry, indirectly, it provide a source of capital to our banks, and indeed individuals. They in turn use this capital base to lend against for more direct productive endeavours such as people setting up a business, or funding for other new innovation. We have seen other markets freeze overseas, simply due to the asset bases crashing, reducing banks capital bases, and therefore capacity to lend for productive purposes. This has really smacked around many economies.

This may be important as well - as our population ages, housing as investment may take the financial burden off the public system as people move into retirement. People are able to fund their own retirement through property investment, or realise cash through sale.
 
Ok, I will bite :) we don't have enough of our own here? as we have a relatively small population and a relatively small economy? Surely though if we turn overseas funds into hard assets, which are paid off successfully over time, we provide a larger capital base to self-fund our own institutions lending?

What would happen if we didn't borrow from overseas at all? :p
 
Hi all,

I find it very interesting how one side of the story is focussed on what needs to change, why what is happening can't/shouldn't happen.

The other side thinks pretty much same old same old, no matter right or wrong, just go with the flow.

While I often agree with some of the things that should not continue the way they are, when it comes to investment it always pays to go with the flow.

bye
 
I find it very interesting how one side of the story is focussed on what needs to change, why what is happening can't/shouldn't happen.

The other side thinks pretty much same old same old, no matter right or wrong, just go with the flow.

While I often agree with some of the things that should not continue the way they are, when it comes to investment it always pays to go with the flow.

Very true. Same idea as trading with the trend in share trading.

The problem with ignoring the warning signals and going with the flow is being totally unprepared when the music stops.

That's where awareness helps.

However, until it happens, it's mostly an academic exercise (from a personal investment point of view).

Cheers,
 
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Hi all,

I find it very interesting how one side of the story is focussed on what needs to change, why what is happening can't/shouldn't happen.

The other side thinks pretty much same old same old, no matter right or wrong, just go with the flow.

While I often agree with some of the things that should not continue the way they are, when it comes to investment it always pays to go with the flow.

bye

There is some wisdom in that. If you stand out from the crowd and do something independent and the crowd loses money then you can be rest assured the government will tax you to death and hand that loss straight back to the crowd. Hiding in the crowd is safer.
 
if we turn overseas funds into hard assets, which are paid off successfully over time, we provide a larger capital base to self-fund our own institutions lending?

remember we have to give the foreign capital back with interest, because it was borrowed. and the houses we borrowed the capital for didn't produce any foreign income for us to offset the cash we paid China for bling.


What would happen if we didn't borrow from overseas at all? :p

We would have a pretty tidy current account surplus. i.e. positive cash flow, which would become a source of capital to fund our economic growth and suck life blood out of emerging economies by investing in them......
 
Hi all,

While I often agree with some of the things that should not continue the way they are, when it comes to investment it always pays to go with the flow.

bye


Though investing is only different to following a bunch of rats off the edge of a cliff if you see the cliff coming and stop.
 
Here's a compelling financialsense.com interview with Richard Karn regarding the lack of fiscal responsibility fiat currencies allow, in perpetuating global currency wars.

He reckons China isn't interested in resolving trade issues due to USD manipulation by Obama printing presses. Rather China just want more power to manipulate global trade to their advantage.

Karn reckons the safest way to go is to peg currencies across the world to gold or a bundle of metals.

A very insightful listen.

You seem to have a lot more knowledge on this than i do so i have to be careful. but how can we go back to anyform of 'pegged' system, this would set us back 40 years.
The age of setting a currency to a metal is well and truely over.
 
You seem to have a lot more knowledge on this than i do so i have to be careful. but how can we go back to anyform of 'pegged' system, this would set us back 40 years.
The age of setting a currency to a metal is well and truely over.

Have a look at the earlier chart of Chinese M2, then explain why it has increased above the rate of gdp growth for many years, and whether that is represented transparently in its exchange rate with the USD.
 
Hi all,


The other side thinks pretty much same old same old, no matter right or wrong, just go with the flow.


bye
I don't know after reading all the posts and different charts and several different opinions,imho nothing will change"Greed always overtakes Fear" and as property is the only investment i know that longterm the price can only go one way and that's up, you just have to take advantage of any situation that may arise,after all if you look at most posters in this site the ones that played the ASX opm game most not all have been blown out of the water,anyone holding property would not have cared less about the surviving the financial crisis..imho..willair..
 
Thinking about it in terms of a person or a company is a good way to understand it. $2M in debt and an income of $200K though would be enormous debt load for anybody (person, company or country). I think you must be forgetting the rental income as well. $2M times 7% interest for example is $140K. That means 70% of the income ($140K / $200K) is consumed by interest.
YieldMatters,

Good point! I thought about that myself after posting it. In effect, there are 4 households servicing my debt load, not just my own... (Note: I say 4 because the $2M was a projected number based on my debt load post developing my 3 unit site in Mona Vale).

That's the way I see it too HK. But self interest being what it is, most of us are going to keep bidding each other up hoping we aren't the last in. And I acknowledge we might go on another 20 years before any shock effects our interest rates or credit significantly.
Winston,

If nothing else, the recent events in the US have opened my eyes to the potential of a housing price bubble to form and burst in an ugly manner. Whilst I have argued consistently for about a year now that its different over here, I concede that it may not always be. At present, we are blessed by the following:

1. A strong trading relationship with China and a wealth of commodities. A bit like Canada, we just got lucky.
2. An under-supply of housing.
3. Initially high interest rates (restrictive) and room to ease, and zero government debt prior to the financial crisis.
4. A growing economy and a very high rate of immigration. Whilst the GDP/capita is easing, the total GDP certainly isn't.
etc. You know the rest of the list by now...

The fact that we are a bit like a mini emerging economy has protected us. We are not a mature western economy like Europe, Japan or the US. We are growing and growing rapidly. So long as this is the case, then capital will flow to our country and inflate the prices of our assets. With a rapidly growing population, of course saught after properties in prime position will rise in value. Contrast this with the US where their economy is mature and GDP falling when you exclude financial wizardry.

I think we've definately got at least another decade to go whilst capital flows into Australia and we remain the lucky country. Demographics are a risk in the medium term, but not today.

To that end, I think your suggestion that we might well have 20 years left to bask in the sun could well prove correct. If its a Ponzi scheme, then its got decades left to run. In fact, in the short term, the risk to inflation suggests its a great time to buy up big on assets that would naturally appreciate anyway due to the demand/supply dynamics I described above.

Its a good time to be an Australian and a good time to be a property owner. All just MHO.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Re: services economy good or bad.. Services provide jobs->jobs provide income->income provides capacity to spend->capacity to spend drives economy and pay back debt??

The merit of housing as being 'non-productive' could be argued I guess. While it may not be directly productive outside the construction industry, indirectly, it provide a source of capital to our banks, and indeed individuals. They in turn use this capital base to lend against for more direct productive endeavours such as people setting up a business, or funding for other new innovation. We have seen other markets freeze overseas, simply due to the asset bases crashing, reducing banks capital bases, and therefore capacity to lend for productive purposes. This has really smacked around many economies.

This may be important as well - as our population ages, housing as investment may take the financial burden off the public system as people move into retirement. People are able to fund their own retirement through property investment, or realise cash through sale.


...just not succesfully;)
 
When are we likely to run out of resources though?

It seems like we are in a similar situation to the gulf states, who live on oil money, although we don't earn as much by far.

At least the gulf states have built up large overseas investments, so they have something for the future.

It does seem rather dumb that, collectively, we are basically outbidding each other on property prices, increasing our dependency on foreign investment rather than decreasing it.

Cheers,

Depends from what persepctive you want to look at it.

From a national perspective you're right - resources are finite. At what point do we need to start preparing for that?

From an individual perspective and how it relates to your wealth and the general debt/financing of the country currently - doesn't matter. We'll still have resources for a couple hundred more years at least (or more?!), so it won't effect me, my kids, or my grand kids.

Now if you were around to ask that question in say 2209 then maybe it will effect you more.
 
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Hi all,

gwk,
The merit of housing as being 'non-productive' could be argued I guess

TF,
...just not succesfully

TF, Could you please explain from the economist point of view.

How is housing less productive than.... trading used shares?? or providing a tourist facility, or selling TV sets, or putting OK or not OK on loan applications :p or a host of other things???

bye
 
MW, as YM points out re the house analogy, Australia isn't pulling positive foreign cash flow from its foreign borrowings for a house.

Rather, we just keep borrowing more and sustain a -CF with foreign lenders, which obviously wouldn't be possible in a house paradigm, unless borrowers were gradually growing their chunk of equity in our house.

Foreign lenders aren't too concerned if we default in 2-3 years, because they don't carry risk that far out. Our Big 4 banks do because they borrow most offshore funds short term, and have to rely on regularly refinancing. It's your classic risk of borrow short term lend long term

The reason we are more exposed to external shock is that we are progressively more dependent on what global risk is rated at, rather than our economy.....and that has been reflected in the fixed rate rises that have hit us, a result of Aussie bond yields following US yields.

Re your points:

1.
Our capacity to service foreign debt is dependent on our trade balance not getting too much in the red.
That trade balance is very much dependent on Chinese economic activity. China's activity is very much to do with their trade balance and their economic stimulus.
China's trade balance is dependent on Europe and USA.

Ergo, our trade balance is dependent on Europe and USA imports, and Chinese economic stimulus.
Below is China's BoT.

China-Balance-of-Trade-Chart-000004.png


Unemployment is still growing in Europe and the USA, and house prices still falling. It is unlikely US and Euro credit fueled consumption will reach early 2008 levels for years.

Therefore, that makes Australia's trade balance even more reliant on China's artificial stimulus.

Australia wants to understand exactly what the Chinese stimulus entails and its risks. It is the most massive stimulus ever attempted anywhere in the world, and if it isn't spent on stuff that returns consistent cash flows, then it spells trouble ahead. Much of the stimulus was loans from Chinese banks to business. If those businesses to not generate enough cash flow from the loans, then Chinese banks will need bailing out by the govt. That very well could force China to start liquidating their 2T of US bonds, or blow out public debt just as Obama and Rudd have done. Either way, their economy has a genuine chance of slowing again.

From the Royal Bank of Scotland re China's stimulus:

• While the pace of growth is accelerating, the quality is deteriorating. And while I have revised GDP growth upwards in line with the reported numbers, I believe that the economy will behave weaker than the reported numbers imply. My proxy estimates, based on the monthly data, show public investment and private residential investment as the main drivers of growth, private consumption as stable, and private business investment and net exports contracting sharply as a result of the collapse in global demand and rising manufacturing overcapacity. – Ben Simpfendorfer, Royal Bank of Scotland

RBS believe the stimulus is just inflating the Chinese property bubble again, with very little net productivity gains. If RBS is right, this is obviously unsustainable, and indeed a train wreck in slow motion.

Apart from that, the Chinese economy is around 1/10 the size of the USA and Europe combined. How likely is China's artificial attempts to stimulate domestic expenditure (a great part of which is investment in housing = bubble) likely to replace reduced exports to Europe and USA?


2.
House Undersupply

One could argue we have an undersupply of red feraris (or homes closer to work), because demand is high. However, everyone that demands a ferrari (or home closer to work) can't afford one. Supply matching demand is contingent on a significant price drop.

And do we really have an undersupply of housing?
The bottom chart below shows cumulative change in estimated resident population (the cumulative number of new residents) divided by the cumulative number of new dwellings. If Australia has a median household size of 2.6, and we have built enough homes for 1.65 people per dwelling, then have we built too many homes or too little?

erp&dwellcomms.gif


avhhsize.gif



3.
As I've said before, Australia's rates have been higher than the rest of the world's for years. To me, this just represents the premium the RBA thinks we had to pay to attract foreign capital to stop our banks from failing, and buy Rudd's bond issuance. The drop in rates we had didn't ramp consumption. People instead pulled their heads in and tried to pay down debt and reduce consumption, which is why Rudd stimulated.

Well we will enter the next credit tightening with historically high public debt.....it's a postive feedback loop from here, cos we will have to enter quatitative easing more deeply, just like the US.

4.
I'd love to sit down with an economics professor for a week and have so many things explained more deeply. Measuring our debt service capacity via GDP is wrong imho. As I said earlier, imputed rents make up 10% of GDP, which is money that doesn't exist. Health expenditure makes up another 10%, which doesn't contribute towards income like exports. 62% of gdp is services. And then there's our foreign interest bill, which I believe is about 4% of GDP. And gdp is ramped up via rising property prices and imputed rent, and the whole real estae industry.

If the population is increasing, then there will be an ever increasing demand on public services. Is tax income increasing in line with population growth, to maintain service level per capita and replace old infrastructure and build new? Without ever increasing housing prices, it appears not.


As I said above, some think ever greater foreign investment in Australia is a good thing, a sign of the strength and attractiveness of our economy to foreign capital. That's only one side of the argument. The other side is attraction of foreign capital is a sign we are prepared to pay a higher rate of return than anywhere else in the world, in preference to keeping those profits in the country to fund and own our future growth. Gee, we could even be using that capital to compete with China to secure ownership of mines in Africa.


The issue with this stuff is that we could be getting bled slowly as a nation, and not realize it.

Anyway, all interesting stuff, and healthy debate of it is all for the better.
 
Hi all,

How is housing less productive than.... trading used shares??

potentially, shares provide market valued equity that allows Australian companies to expand operations, which employs people and might even earn export income. trading also helps keep company management competitive and more honest with their investors.

or providing a tourist facility,

a lot of tourist revenue is export income.


or selling TV sets,

arguably less productive than houses


or putting OK or not OK on loan applications :p or a host of other things???

bye

We could spend ALL our money on booze and prostitutes, as long as we didn't have to borrow foreign capital to do so. If we used foreign capital, we'd either have to make foreign income to pay it off, or spend less on booze and pros so we have savings to pay back principal and interest on foreign debt.

10 years ago Aussie homes were worth around 3x less than what they are today. Where's the 3x increase in productivity?

Why didn't the "productivity" of US housing save the US from the GFC????


 
Hi WW,

potentially, shares provide market valued equity that allows Australian companies to expand operations, which employs people and might even earn export income.

potentially, houses provide market valued equity that allows Australian Small Business owners to expand operations, which employs people and might even earn export income.

I have done that myself in the past, borrowed against the equity in our house for business (manufacturing) purpose. Without the higher equity in the house due to growth/inflation/whatever the investment in the business would not have occurred.

a lot of tourist revenue is export income.
And a lot more of it is not. Should only the proportion that earns export income be counted as 'productive' and we close the rest down because it is unproductive?? (OK I'm being silly here ;) )

If we bought up all of NZ's property, and rented it to NZ'ers does that make it productive for us and non-productive for them?? If the NZ'ers then bought up all our property and rented it to us then it would be productive for them and unproductive for us.

If housing was unproductive to start with then both us and the NZ'ers would be better off buying in the other country.

Basically it is a huge floor in economic THEORY that housing is unproductive and because the economics professor believes in the theory you are probably wasting your time in seeking them out.

bye
 
WW

This is a pretty funny thread! Let me get a few things straight...

Are you:
1) Advocating higher or lower tariffs in Australia?
2) Advocating increasing or decreasing immigration into Australia?
3) Advocating exactly what policy measures to stop us all "bidding up unproductive housing using foreign capital"?
4) Advocating Australia stop all economic activity relating to services because that is "unproductive"?
5) Advocating a "gold standard" for our currency in isolation to the rest of the world?
6) Advocating a "gold standard" for all currencies in the world?
7) Advocating exactly what policy measures to increase Australian manufacturing?

and most important of all:
8) What actions are you currently taking to improve your personal wealth in light of how the world is, rather than how you would like it to be?

As you know, each of the first seven options has side political and economic effects that would be most counter productive and we could go on forever with the pros and cons, eg in response to:
1) The (economic) advantages of free trade worldwide for all countries outweigh any benefit for an individual country from higher tariff walls - we should be putting all our efforts in to lower worldwide tariffs not higher...
4) I work for an Australian (ASX) company of circa 30,000 employees worldwide which only provides services - it has no physical assets other than its employees! It makes a motza from those services and repatriates those profits to its ASX shareholders - is this of no value to Australia? :rolleyes:
5&6) Gold standards just remove another policy measure from the hands of government to deal with economic upheaval - tying one hand of ours behind our back (while the rest can do what they like) - do we really want to do this? Better in my mind to just realise, as Bill says, that money is the creation of man and act accordingly...
7) While diversity in income for Australia is a good thing (and manufacturing would provide this), Australia has very few competitive advantages in the manufacturing sector - our wages are just too high. Dropping our wages to compete would not be a desirable outcome. Better for us to design the stuff (provide the services) and China to make them. Win/win for everyone - let's stick to what we're good at (eg mining) - putting heaps of money into Australian manufacturing is (speaking generally) a hiding to nowhere...

IMHO Australia is in a wonderful position worldwide. The factors have already been discussed - our only negative is the reliance on foreign capital in the non-govt sector (govt has a long way to go to get anywhere near the US). Given our strength on an international basis there seems to be little risk on this front. Much better than the myriad of risks faced by other countries.

But back to the main point - how do we make money out of how the world is now? Personally, using debt to invest in hard assets like property (with a good cash flow attached mind - "typical" RIPs don't qualify for me) is my method. What's yours?

:)
 
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