Would you riot if your country was up the *****?

[Aaron Sice]

I think the Greek protesters have form. They have been living beyond their means for years with cushy pensions and bloated public services jobs (approx 30% of their workforce) unsustainable. If I am sounding harsh its probably because I am

what even more amazing is that "service" and "Greece" are an oxymoron when used in the same sentence.

 

[jaycee]

what even more amazing is that "service" and "Greece" are an oxymoron when used in the same sentence.

So we're just talking the **** and insulting people now without even needing to have a point ?

 

[Token Funder]

*snip*
Feelings of entitlements is a dangerous thing especially when reality gets ignored. It never ceases to amaze me how people cant look past their own self interest.

Doesn't happen here, of course

*manfully resists temptation to cut and paste NG thread*

 

[tom32]

I think the Greek protesters have form. They have been living beyond their means for years with cushy pensions and bloated public services jobs (approx 30% of their workforce) unsustainable. If I am sounding harsh its probably because I am

Now if it was the German people protesting I would understand, after all why should they have to bail out other countries whose people get to retire years younger on pensions they can only dream about?

I noticed the other day NSW public servants were protesting about having pay rises fixed to 2.5% for the next few years. Well let me get out my violin because I havent had a pay rise since 2008.

Feelings of entitlements is a dangerous thing especially when reality gets ignored. It never ceases to amaze me how people cant look past their own self interest.

I think the creditors including the German government have as much to learn from this.

Remember if you lend money to someone you are the one taking the risk as much as they are. If you gave 100,000.00 to a metho drinker on the street and then find he cannot pay it back you have no one else to blame but yourself and no reason to blame them. Look at yourself.

The Greeks have every reason to protest because there is another way out and their government is choosing the harder road it would seem.

The Germans protesting just don't understand what their government is trying to do, chase back the money already on loan and shore up a failing and fragile part of Europe. If Greece goes it is possible others will follow and Germany and France will be the two countries most hurt being there creditors. Greece is likely better off post a default then before it. Germany and France are not. Put it this way Greece cannot go backwards from here at any rate by defaulting!

 

[Corey Batt]

No, just decades of stigma, regression from the global market stage, blah blah blah.

They're all just a bunch of tax dodging, socialist whiners. If default and can't rely upon foreign lending, they would actually have to rely upon their local economy. There's a joke, only so much olive oil trade within the local Greek market. Or become a productive economy not based upon corruption and unrealistic standards.

 

[jaycee]

No, just decades of stigma, regression from the global market stage, blah blah blah.

They're all just a bunch of tax dodging, socialist whiners. If default and can't rely upon foreign lending, they would actually have to rely upon their local economy. There's a joke, only so much olive oil trade within the local Greek market. Or become a productive economy not based upon corruption and unrealistic standards.

WAht ARE you trying to say ?

Is the basic gist of populatr opinon here that Greeks are sort of like./... er..... idiots ?

Is that what we're tyring to day ?

Of course, we here, are much better , and not the kjopke that Greece & her people are...



That about right ?

 

[Corey Batt]

I'm saying there is widespread tax evasion, to the tune of $20 billion a year:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704182004575055473233674214.html

Even Greek academia have done significant research into the widespread tax evasion and corruption 'shadow economy':

http://www.asecu.gr/Seeje/issue06/katsios.pdf

Government income reduced by 26% because of citizens under-reporting their income.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...3_SReX&sig=AHIEtbSsU4snXxqyHkoAGMbjWPl2Ml61kQ

$1 billion spent every year just to grease the wheels-The term should more likely be 'Greece the wheels':

http://www.neurope.eu/articles/99469.php

Average greek spends 1,300 Euro a year on bribes:

http://www.bild.de/news/bild-englis...355-euros-in-bribes-a-year-11670598.bild.html

I can go on all day. Look at Spain, look at Portugal. All these countries have the same problems. Dodgy economies with rioting whiners who are as corrupt as their politicians. Politicians are a reflection of the society in which they live, just like everybody else. Liquidate all their assets and use this to pay what ever debt they can, squeeze the rest of the blood out of stone, even if it cracks. Welcome to responsibility, Greece.

 

[equitymate]

And everyone else is compeletley innocent except the few selfish protestors who want more for nothing from enveyone else you reckon ?

If only life was actually that simple.

Well it is pretty simple they have lived in a system that was way to generous to begin with. It cannot continue into the never, never. 80% of working wage government pensions (nice work if you can get it).
How can one of the lowest ranking public school systems in Europe employ four times as many teaches per pupilils as the highest ranked Finland?
Average state rail emplyee is on 65,000 euros (nice work)
The greeks should of been protesting years ago but were too busy drunk enjoying the free for all, now the bill has aririved.
Sure I sympathize, but I must of missed the protests years ago when the writing was on the wall that this path is unsustainable. And the writing was on the wall...
Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010?currentPage=1

 

[equitymate]

Thanks CJ I see you beat me to it..

 

[jaycee]

Well it is pretty simple they have lived in a system that was way to generous to begin with. It cannot continue into the never, never. 80% of working wage government pensions (nice work if you can get it).
How can one of the lowest ranking public school systems in Europe employ four times as many teaches per pupilils as the highest ranked Finland?
Average state rail emplyee is on 65,000 euros (nice work)
The greeks should of been protesting years ago but were too busy drunk enjoying the free for all, now the bill has aririved. Sure I sympathize, but I must of missed the protests years ago when the writing was on the wall that this path is unsustainable. And the writing was on the wall...
Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010?currentPage=1

Greeks are not known drunkards

Wehre did I suggest problems do not exist ? I believe my first post on this thread suggested problems have existed for ag4es & are too complicated to simplify like some have here and comparing Australia to day and the way we live & think to Greece's sitatuon and suggesting " I wouldn't do that, Greeks shoud be doing this instead, silly Greeks"

But of course, it's like being an armchair expert in sports - bloody uyseless pro footy player, I could've marked that ball

There is blame, there are issues, but I doubt it's as simple as people appear to be making it out.

 

[equitymate]

Greeks are not known drunkards

Just like us Aussies

You are sounding a little sensative. Ill bet my last dollar you are either Greek or have Greek relatives.

I am off to get a Greek salad for lunch.
Lighten up

 

[Aaron Sice]

So we're just talking the **** and insulting people now without even needing to have a point ?

no not at all!

it was a joke, jaycee. nothing more. having been to Greece and tried to get

1) clean sheets
2) a car rental
3) food
4) transport

my views are entirely my own and my comments are made from personal experience across a narrow field of demographia.

cheers.

 

[jaycee]

Just like us Aussies

You are sounding a little sensative. Ill bet my last dollar you are either Greek or have Greek relatives. Yes I'm Greek, I thought I made thagtr quite obvious actually, certainly wasn;t keeping it a secret.
I am off to get a Greek salad for lunch.

Lighten up

Come on mate, makle a wrothwhile jjoker & I will laugh at it, but thinly veiled insults instead of humour don't really rock my boat

Actually totally unlike the Aussies, Greeks & the mediteranean are defintiley not big drinkers nbor will you see the stupidity and pathetic drunkeness you seee here so often like we cant;' control ourselves.

One thing "aussie greeks" have noticed when they go there on holiday to greece is how much more they like to drink than the local greeks.. the locals will pour a shot of tsipouro for visitng company, & put the bottle away.. when I wne nightclubbing with relatives, hardly anyone drank, they danced their butts off and enjoyed themselves, but alcohol was no more a novelty or no more improtant than anything else on the night - the venue/company/music/food....

You can simplify things and take ****, but it ios not a real reflection on rality, it is simply simplifying things and taking the ****.

Aaron, I mfgoudn hospitialitry in Greece quite welcoming depsite the difficulties with some things... Perhaps I see things that are not there, but it is not just me that has mentioned genuine hospitality and warmth that you received unexpectedly as one of the highlight of the trip...

 

[Corey Batt]

Indeed, all Greeks are teetotallers.

And tax dodgers, corrupt and the cause of their own problems.

 

[Aaron Sice]

Aaron, I mfgoudn hospitialitry in Greece quite welcoming depsite the difficulties with some things... Perhaps I see things that are not there, but it is not just me that has mentioned genuine hospitality and warmth that you received unexpectedly as one of the highlight of the trip...

might be typing a "little" too fast there.....

i felt nothing but contempt towards me as a tourist, but like i said, that's just my experience across a narrow range of folk.

 

[jaycee]

Indeed, all Greeks are teetotallers.

And tax dodgers, corrupt and the cause of their own problems.

And everyone here is superior to them, especially when you read the oh so intelligent input people have provdied

wtf is it with insulting people even when you hsve no idea what you're talking about and expecting people to agree with you - oh wait, you saw a report on Channel 7, spo you do nknow what's going on right ?

yeah, good on ya......

 

[jaycee]

might be typing a "little" too fast there.....

i felt nothing but contempt towards me as a tourist, but like i said, that's just my experience across a narrow range of folk.

So would "not enough contact to draw a worthwhile conculsion" be about the right way to describe it Aaron ?

You've NEVER heard anyone say they enjoyed the local experience on a greek holiday ?

I think I've heard that about just every palce in the world I've ever talked about holidays.
Certainly Greece did not stand out as that alien from the rest of the world, to me anyway

 

[Corey Batt]

And everyone here is superior to them, especially when you read the oh so intelligent input people have provdied

wtf is it with insulting people even when you hsve no idea what you're talking about and expecting people to agree with you - oh wait, you saw a report on Channel 7, spo you do nknow what's going on right ?

yeah, good on ya......

Jeez, even those studies from Greece made by GREEK people, golly, they must be insulting the mythical honest Greek people! And boy George, channel 7 gives references now in email form so you can post them on forums so easily? I must send them a Christmas card this year.

"BURRRR HURRR IM UPSET BECOZ DEY SAY GREECE SHUD TAKE RESPONSAHBILITAH, NO FARRRREEEEE!!!!!! Oh I know, say they watch channel 7! Argument disproved!"

And just for the hell of it, by the way, I must be at work while these mythical reports are on tv.

 

[tom32]

Liquidate all their assets and use this to pay what ever debt they can, squeeze the rest of the blood out of stone, even if it cracks. Welcome to responsibility, Greece.

But who is responsible for loaning them the loans that clearly collectively they will never pay back.

If you were in Greece why would you stand for that. Why would you stand for paying back 20bn in interest payments and just 5bn of the principle every year when instead you could default.

Sure if you default you will never get credit again, but so what, they are not going to get any meaningfull credit without massive strings anyway.

If I was personally in greeces position I would declare myself bankrupt in a heartbeat. I am very conservative but this does not mean I would take a hit for the team when I do not have to.

What you say above is eerily similar (perhaps deliberately?) to what the French said about Germany post WW1 with the war debt. Arguably it was one of the pre-requisites to the rise of a Nazi Germany. Subject a society to enough mistreatment and it does not end well. Look at it already and they are about 2 years into a 30 year cycle of suffering.

Greece has not lost a war, they have borrowed money and there is no legal way of enforcing payment (unless Germany goes to war with them!). Default is a legitamate course of action and you as the lender should take this into account. I blame the lenders at least equally with the greeks. You can say, it was always unsustainable, look at the fools, but who was the fool? The one living the life or the one lending them the money?

They default and in 10 years they will be back trading and getting themselves off to a better start with a new currency able to be devalued to suit the prevailing economic conditions. Having a currency across countries was always going to be usustainable. Different countries require different doses of monetary policy. We are one country and even here we talk about a 2 tier economy and the havoc that interest rates have on parts of the economy. Imagine if we were linked to some completely different economy like Chinas! It does not work and is unsustainable. This was alwyas going to happen the moment they decided to have a single currency and the reason we will never see a global currency.

 

[joeExpat]

The Irony is that Greek (& most other southern European countries) work much longer hours than their northern counterparts.

Given their lower wages and longer hours if they could sort out a few corruption, productivity & technological issues the southern countries including Greece could easily compete with Germany.

Perhaps they should start with an Irish-like low corporate tax to attract some multinational company investment. Of course this low tax would be blocked by the Germans banks as part of the "Austerity measures"... which is why they should probably stick it to them first (default) before sorting out their own economies.