"Australian Exceptionalism"

[our obsession]

Dazz:

No, it is not obvious to the people of Victoria.

Ahem, and aren't the Vics rueing the day this happened.

The Baillieu coalition government that is (on evidence so far), letting investment and jobs slide into other states, the Victorian coalition government stalled for the September quarter on growth;

Victoria edged into reverse, recording a 0.1 per cent fall in state final demand..

the government that is slashing jobs and investment spending, the paralysis government that at best works up to a creeping dithering of inaction? The do-nothing monolithics that don't even recognise domestic violence assaults as a crime that affects all people and not just a 'women's issue'...that had some very shady behaviour on behalf of Peter Ryan (who happens to be deputy premier btw), staff:

Deputy Premier Peter Ryan's former senior adviser may be criminally liable for an overwhelming abuse of authority. His superiors deny all responsibility. Matters cannot be left at that.

The implications of the report could hardly be more serious. Mr Strong finds Mr Ryan's handpicked senior adviser, Triston Weston, tried to broker a deal under which the Police Association would tone down criticism of the government in return for the minister supporting the withdrawal of then deputy commissioner Ken Jones's resignation. Mr Weston fuelled a police and media campaign to oust police chief Simon Overland, who had not endeared himself to the Coalition. This ''almost certainly contributed to the course of events that led to the Chief Commissioner's resignation [on June 19]'', Mr Strong writes. ''Management of Victoria Police was undermined and public confidence in it diminished.''

There is more....but let's just call it for what it is:

Nuff nuts and dismal.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

What an unpleasant post that typifies everything wrong with modern neo-con thinking.

oooh yeah, i need a good spanking and some time spent in a political re-education camp, for even thinking such thoughts.

How dare I, after all, todays version of the Malleus Maleficarum, has quite clearly dictated the correct way to progress.

Time for a bit of burning i think, nothing clears the soul such as a bit seriously high temperature dont you think.

Never mind a bit of terrorism side play, it doenst flow into the major scheme of things, therefore lets use it to our advantage hey.

Bin Ladin, he wasnt such a bad chap, just had a gripe at the US, right??? We havent dont anything to get these chaps blood running, so lets just stay out of it.

Sweden, yeah good example, liberal country, yes jolly good show, lets highlight Sweden as a good example (especially as Bin Ladin himself used this country as an example according to Evand) of a country that wont have to worry about terrorism.

Whoops, Sweden has a terrorism problem. No, better change the picture.
I know lets attact the poster, yes thats it, the poster is the problem.
Naughty boy, how dare you???
Just an unpleasant poster, yes thats right you bad boy, you typify everything thats bad with neo-con thinking (whatever this means).

 

[Ideo]

Oh yes. Anyone who questions the wisdom of creating another generation of terrorists through blowing up and maiming their family must be a terrorist supporter.

Hell, anyone who questions the rights god given claim to lead must also be a terrorist.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

Oh yes. Anyone who questions the wisdom of creating another generation of terrorists through blowing up and maiming their family must be a terrorist supporter.

Hell, anyone who questions the rights god given claim to lead must also be a terrorist.

whatever whaffle this is, it becomes a case of lets obfusicate the original post by Evand.

So lets get back to basics, do you support Bin Ladin, do you support his views.

If not what is your view on how to handle the situation in regards to Bin Ladin?

Is it just an American problem?
Are other countries such as Sweden, safe, because they are not American (as Evand implied).

 

[Belbo]

We are not fighting terrorists to safeguard our lifestyle and freedoms, we are fighting them because the US is and they are fighting them because of the attacks they have made on US assets.

They have made those attacks in response to the US meddling in the middle east, support of Israel, oil and the massive US defence contractor money.

And lie after lie US, UK and Aus govts have fed to their own people.

Firstly, there's no question that Australia did here, always has since WWII, and probably will for a very long time continue to, blindly follow the US into wars. But this is longstanding Labor Party policy (just as much as it is Coalition policy): Preserve the ANZUS Treaty charade of mutually-assured defence at all costs. It's a charade because the US under that treaty is obliged to do nothing more than 'consult' in the event of an attack on Australia assets. We view it tragically as our nuclear umbrella. Do you really think the US will nuke NZ if it 'attacks'? Or Indonesia?

Next: Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists attack in response to US 'meddling in the middle east'? Every country meddles everywhere in the world it possibly can to gain influence! Are you honestly so naive as to believe otherwise? Stunning! But even more astonishing, you seem to think that these particular Islamic fundamentalists actually require a logical motivation for their death-cultism. Newsflash: They don't! They just want the 70 virgins in heaven they've eached been promised, in return for giving up their mortal lives to have the world ruled by the dictats an 11th century desert-economy-loving lunatic. Requiring clitorectomy, for God's sake?

Lastly, if it were all Western lies 'fed to their own people', how could you possibly stomach ever be defending the current Labor Party government? They've been up to their nuts in guts despatching our country's defence forces to these abominable arenas of unrelenting guerilla warfare, with no more justification than "we are standing firm with our allies". There's cynicism for you! They're actually telling us truthfully the real reason why our troops have been committed, knowing full well that the voters will be overwhelmed calculating the cost-benefit analysis of a potential nuclear umbrella vs a possible over-estimation of the genuine threat that these fundamentalist nutcases really represent.

You can't have it both ways, Evan.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

Dazz:



Ahem, and aren't the Vics rueing the day this happened.



.

Nope not from what i am seeing. There is little that the state government can do in the whole scheme of things. They are only a state government. Who really cares, the big issues are determined on a federal level.

The importance of state vs federal governments is like the mouse vs the elephant.
The mouse can soften things, they can get the credit rating agencies to increase ratings leading to lower finance costs.

But its the federal government that will have the major play on things.

So to answer your question, no Victorians are not rueing the day. They are waiting for the federal election. Victoria is a traditional labour base, yet Victoria still wants the federal government out.

Much to Evands disappointment (stupid electorate right???) and much to Ideo's dissapointment (where it will be due to those neo-con thinking Victorians).

Labour has lost its way, it no longer represents labour, and the labour electorate (even in Victoria) will be voicing this in the next federal election.

The labour left will move to the greens (as Evan has stated he has done with NSW state elections). The right will move to a combination of the liberals/right of left political parties.

So again i say byebye labour.


I have a new song for you, just substitute American for Australian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAsV5-Hv-7U

 

[Belbo]

It's Labor, not labour. Try to at least not to demean any possible merit your argument harbours on grounds of completely rank ignorance.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

Firstly, there's no question that Australia did here, always has since WWII, and probably will for a very long time continue to, blindly follow the US into wars. .

I would say its before WWII, what about WWI (except it wasnt the US, it was Britain), talley ho boys, over the top, lets give a bit to those huns, what?

But this misses the essential point, in the whole scheme of things, most australians with 'aussie values' know inherently the right way.

Again they might be mislead by the politics of the day (from either side of the major parties), but their hearts were in the right place, their vision overal was 'right'. Very very very few Australians would be supporting the logic of Bin Ladin (except for those Reds who have reclassified themselves as Greens for the pure purpose that its easier to inject Red values using a Green cover in todays political system) But then its a democracy so we have Evand and Ideo giving their views, which they will vote upon accordingly.

I'm not worried about their views (based on further evidence by Evand on his views on this topic thread), i am more concerned with how the 'average Australian' views things. And i am looking at hope (people are waking up)

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

It's Labor, not labour. Try to at least not to demean any possible merit your argument harbours on grounds of completely rank ignorance.

spelling my dear boy, we dont all possess your grasp of the English language.
But like investing, its not the algorathim, that determines the final picture (luckily for me)

Although i do guarantee you that if i ever go public, i will have a Belbo type person as one of my right hand men, they will correctly phrase my opinions in the correct and socially acceptable manner, such that our gramatically correct phrases will be such that not only will the investment returns 'woo' people but so will the elequant manner that such reports are presented to the public. LOL

 

[Belbo]

We followed the US into WWI? (Note to self: Be sure to check the date on that ANZUS Treaty before going foot in mouth.)

And for your own personal benefit, "elequant" can mean nothing if not rendered 'eloquent'. (At least, not since 5th grade.)

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

We followed the US into WWI? (Note to self: Be sure to check the date on that ANZUS Treaty before going foot in mouth.)

And for your own personal benefit, "elequant" can mean nothing if not rendered 'eloquent'. (At least, not since 5th grade.)

i rest my case.
Sorry this must drive one such as yourself round the block.

By the way there might be something wrong with my windows program, i am sure i typed 'eloquant' (well 50% of the way there).

By the way Merry Christmas buddy, you are a good member of this forum.

 

[tom32]

I read to the 2nd paragraph and couldnt read any more. Its saying the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, fair enough. Tho its an American term, not one of the RSL.

Anyway, the part that states that we are "fighting against terrorists who threaten our values etc"

What a load of Liberal claptrap. (was it written by Hockey)

The thing reminded me instantly of Asama Bin Laden's response to GW Bush when Bush stated that terrorists are jealous of and want to attack our freedoms and that is the only reason the US is fighting them.

And Bin Laden replied, "you dont see us attacking Sweden" which is among the freest country on earth. Typical Liberal/Republican scare scaremongering rubbish.

We are not fighting terrorists to safeguard our lifestyle and freedoms, we are fighting them because the US is and they are fighting them because of the attacks they have made on US assets.

They have made those attacks in response to the US meddling in the middle east, support of Israel, oil and the massive US defence contractor money.

And lie after lie US, UK and Aus govts have fed to their own people.

I have 2 things for you to consider:

1. If not the USA as the worlds dominant power who would you prefer? Do you think the world would work better if China was the worlds strongest military power? While I am not racist in any way a democracy founded on freedom from oppression is one I prefer leading the world than the alternative even if they do get it wrong about half the time.

It turns out in the coming decades the USA is unlikely to be dominant in its own right. It will require a strong alliance with the likes of the UK, parts of europe and even Australia to maintain a world where freedom from oppression is at least an aspirational goal if not actually achieved for many.

2. By only reading the first two lines of that speach you have missed really what the hell he was talking about. liberty in Australia is being whittled away, in my opinion by both sides of the house and I am not real happy with it. That someone is prepared to speak out about it, serious kudos to them!

This is also from the same speach:

Mill is one of those people. Always clear, often difficult, usually provocative, among the earliest defenders of the equal rights of women, minorities and subjugated peoples. He was a champion of fair, free and open elections. Himself a Member of Parliament and a political activist, Mill was above all an unrelenting champion of the principle that personal liberty was the essential element of a free and decent society.

His famous statement of liberal principles is that:

“the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.”

And just in case we have a tendency to gloss over words like “freedom” and “liberty”, Mill defines it in the most compelling way:

“The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.”

Isn’t this what we all want? That we be allowed to follow our own dreams, have our own beliefs, – as long as we don’t harm others or limit their freedom?

and this:

I believe that individual liberty must be the foundation of our society, even when it clashes head on with the perceived communal good. That belief rests on John Locke’s positive view about human nature – that there is an essential good, rationality and an innate desire to co-operate in all men and women. I share his conviction that happiness is achieved when individuals are permitted to flourish in ways of their own choosing, according to their own conscience and beliefs.

and this of the Libs in WA!:

In every State and Territory there is an endless and rarely challenged demand for expansion in police powers – taken to extremes in Western Australia with a proposal to allow virtually unrestricted stop and search powers for police. I understand that similar proposals have also won favour in Victoria. Surely the Australian interpretation of liberty extends to the right of an individual to go about their daily business without being subject to a random body search by Police. The Police do not have to declare a reason for the random body search. In my view this goes too far.

 

[Belbo]

i rest my case.
Sorry this must drive one such as yourself round the block.

By the way there might be something wrong with my windows program, i am sure i typed 'eloquant' (well 50% of the way there).

By the way Merry Christmas buddy, you are a good member of this forum.

No, I was as always sure to cut and paste such an ineloquent atrocity.

Nonetheless, the best of the season's greetings, and my own appreciation for your input into making this forum an interesting place are reciprocated.

We'll spar again soon, I hope.

 

[Belbo]

I have 2 things for you to consider:

1. If not the USA as the worlds dominant power who would you prefer? Do you think the world would work better if China was the worlds strongest military power? While I am not racist in any way a democracy founded on freedom from oppression is one I prefer leading the world than the alternative even if they do get it wrong about half the time.

It turns out in the coming decades the USA is unlikely to be dominant in its own right. It will require a strong alliance with the likes of the UK, parts of europe and even Australia to maintain a world where freedom from oppression is at least an aspirational goal if not actually achieved for many.

2. By only reading the first two lines of that speach you have missed really what the hell he was talking about. liberty in Australia is being whittled away, in my opinion by both sides of the house and I am not real happy with it. That someone is prepared to speak out about it, serious kudos to them!

This is also from the same speach:



and this:



and this of the Libs in WA!:

Oh dear, I've been exposed. Alright! I've been chanelling J.S. Mill all along. There, are you happy now? He is the liberal the neo-cons call a socialist, I know. Forgive me. The shame is unbearable.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

I have 2 things for you to consider:

1. If not the USA as the worlds dominant power who would you prefer? Do you think the world would work better if China was the worlds strongest military power? While I am not racist in any way a democracy founded on freedom from oppression is one I prefer leading the world than the alternative even if they do get it wrong about half the time.

:

Yes thats the essential issue isnt it. We love to hate the 'dominant power', yet what is the alternative?

(a) chaos, with no nation being able to excert power;
(b) an alternative 'dominant power', whereby only after time passes do we wish for the previous dominant power.

Totally agree with you, for others, well the passage of time may change views.

 

[Ideo]

whatever whaffle this is, it becomes a case of lets obfusicate the original post by Evand.

So lets get back to basics, do you support Bin Ladin, do you support his views.

If not what is your view on how to handle the situation in regards to Bin Ladin?

Is it just an American problem?
Are other countries such as Sweden, safe, because they are not American (as Evand implied).

Exactly what I mean.

This aggressive "you are either with us or against us" or "if you don't blindly support us you must support terrorists" agenda (driving by lowest common denominator news outlets) is exactly what is wrong.

You started by implying that any person who dared question the current U.S. hegemony was a supporter of terrorism. Then you have the hide to complain about people launching personal attacks?

 

[evand]

Calling me a 'major tosser'. I just laughed whne i read that on my favourite property forum. That is so funny.

Anyway, the US, with their aggressive and bullying foreign policy has brought this upon them selves with their constant meddling in OS politics to suit their own interests. They are now the laughing stock of the world, or quickly becoming so.

There is meddling and there is meddling. To say every country meddles is both simplistic and disingenuous.

And getting back to the base fear, anger and greed agenda of right wing politics is exactly that. You are with us or agin us. There is no grey with these idiots, only black and white. What a joke.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

Exactly what I mean.

This aggressive "you are either with us or against us" or "if you don't blindly support us you must support terrorists" agenda (driving by lowest common denominator news outlets) is exactly what is wrong.

You started by implying that any person who dared question the current U.S. hegemony was a supporter of terrorism. Then you have the hide to complain about people launching personal attacks?

yes totally when it comes to Bin Ladin, 100%, uniquivocally, and with no appologies. There is no grey area when it comes to Bin Ladin.

There are many 'grey' areas in life that can be debated, he is not one of them.

 

[Ideo]

yes totally when it comes to Bin Ladin, 100%, uniquivocally, and with no appologies. There is no grey area when it comes to Bin Ladin.

There are many 'grey' areas in life that can be debated, he is not one of them.

Doing it again.

Criticising policy decisions is much different to supporting terrorism.

Loose the strawman. It's tiresome and intellectually lazy.

 

[our obsession]

Oh dear, I've been exposed. Alright! I've been chanelling J.S. Mill all along. There, are you happy now? He is the liberal the neo-cons call a socialist, I know. Forgive me. The shame is unbearable.

*Heh* Belboooooo, are you coming out?