Difference between greed and legitimate self interest

> Difference between greed and legitimate self interest

Dear Marc1,

1. Personally, I do not want to go into a discourse discussion on Greed in the Human Society.

2. For me, one of the basic fundmentals beliefs in my own Christian faith, is that, "man is fallible and therefore whatever human society will evolve, it will still fall short of perfection despite the best endeavours, whether it is through the UN or otherwise.". This is not withstanding the basic differences and the previaling many different varied political views between the various human groups and countries.

3. Morally speaking, to be "greedy" is bad. This is written in the Bible and as what most of us are being taught. Too much of good things can also be a bad thing in itself for an individual, for example, enjoying the food through over-eating, resulting in one's obseity.

4. Therefore, for me, the actual motivations for human actions is important. The Bible clearly states that an individual has already committed a sin by simply looking at a woman and lusting after her in his heart, not withstanding that a rape or molest has yet to be been committed. So is the nature of greed within one human heart, as is seen in the Bible. This is the highest standard of human morality if we can honestly allow themselves to be measured against with. We will naturally know clearly and exactly what is in our own hearts if we will allow the Holy Spirit to quietly speak to us, without having to make any human excuses for ourselves.

5. Thus, for me, fundamanentally speaking, Greed does NOT need to hurt others before it can qualify as" bad", officially. Any actions motivated by greed is questionable and needs to be carefully examined.

6. As for those members who believe that "greed" is bad only when it hurts others, I think that we are talking about our human conscience and value systems, which are subjective and relative in detailed specifcs, though we may agree with one another fundamentally.

7. To put this issue back into perpsective, irrespective of what the forumites say here, Always_Learning will ultimately have to decide for himself who he really want to listen to;- his own human conscience, his close friend or what our forumites have said here. I further believe that irrespective of his decision, his own heart will still tell him that greed is bad emotively speaking;- not withstanding that it may not be rational to our human minds to accept.

8. In this sense, I am not sure exactly what Always_Learning hopes to achieve through this thread. Yes, we can provide the emotional support to him with our own views especially pro-alternative views, but are we really helping him or confusing him or even causing him to "err" more by "legitmising" his present actions?

9. Always_Learning, please tell us what you really need.

10. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH
 
Kenneth,
It is pointless to talk about a concept that is not defined.
Even worst to not want it defined.

I am a Christian too, but I can see the damage done to society by misinterpreting concept like wealth or greed by distorting the basic concept in the scriptures.

There is a vast majority of people that have been programmed by the ordinary victim, the well intentioned but very ignorant preacher, by the socialists of different kind, that rich is bad an poor is spiritual.

This concept bears the responsibility of keeping people in poverty much more than corrupt governments and wars.

The label of "greed" is just a symptom of an underlying problem, the author of the first post is surrounded by people with a victim mentality who see anything that goes beyond their own mediocre idea of success as wrong indecent, greedy, obscene, dirty, dishonest and other labels.

Be content, be realistic, have moderate aspirations, give up for the sake of others, we are not rich why do you think you can be, it is wrong to pursue material wealth, are stock phrases of victim mentality who like the crabs in a basket, pull down whoever dears to rise above the others.

"It is a sin to be poor" said Filmore stunning the clergy of his time, yet what he was referring to was not a moral issue but the true definition of sin, "TO MISS THE MARK". God wants all to prosper, we only need to reach out and accept it. So in that context it is wrong to be poor.

It is unfortunate that well intentioned but ignorant Christian preachers tell you the opposite because they project onto their unsuspecting audience their own failures and frustrations with the topic of money and prosperity. Funny how when I go to church though, and give back to the Lord the small proportion of the wealth He gives me, I am so welcome by the same preacher who gets red in the face telling others how wrong it is to increase your wealth.

How much is greedy? Who much is wrong?
Or rather what is greed, and what is wrong?

When on some topic we all agree on what is right and what is wrong and preachers have an easy task defining and remaining on the accepted standards, on the topic of wealth and prosperity, it seems that each preacher makes it up as he goes along, and the parable of the eye of the needle is perhaps the most misused quote in the whole bible, never explained properly nor put into social and political context for obvious reasons, it suits the preacher to say so.

This is a nice book on the subject, by Catherin Ponder
http://www.prosperitynetwork.com/Ponder.htm
 
marc1 said:
Kenneth,
It is pointless to talk about a concept that is not defined.
Even worst to not want it defined.

I am a Christian too, but I can see the damage done to society by misinterpreting concept like wealth or greed by distorting the basic concept in the scriptures.

There is a vast majority of people that have been programmed by the ordinary victim, the well intentioned but very ignorant preacher, by the socialists of different kind, that rich is bad an poor is spiritual.

This concept bears the responsibility of keeping people in poverty much more than corrupt governments and wars.

The label of "greed" is just a symptom of an underlying problem, the author of the first post is surrounded by people with a victim mentality who see anything that goes beyond their own mediocre idea of success as wrong indecent, greedy, obscene, dirty, dishonest and other labels.

Be content, be realistic, have moderate aspirations, give up for the sake of others, we are not rich why do you think you can be, it is wrong to pursue material wealth, are stock phrases of victim mentality who like the crabs in a basket, pull down whoever dears to rise above the others.

"It is a sin to be poor" said Filmore stunning the clergy of his time, yet what he was referring to was not a moral issue but the true definition of sin, "TO MISS THE MARK". God wants all to prosper, we only need to reach out and accept it. So in that context it is wrong to be poor.

It is unfortunate that well intentioned but ignorant Christian preachers tell you the opposite because they project onto their unsuspecting audience their own failures and frustrations with the topic of money and prosperity. Funny how when I go to church though, and give back to the Lord the small proportion of the wealth He gives me, I am so welcome by the same preacher who gets red in the face telling others how wrong it is to increase your wealth.

How much is greedy? Who much is wrong?
Or rather what is greed, and what is wrong?

When on some topic we all agree on what is right and what is wrong and preachers have an easy task defining and remaining on the accepted standards, on the topic of wealth and prosperity, it seems that each preacher makes it up as he goes along, and the parable of the eye of the needle is perhaps the most misused quote in the whole bible, never explained properly nor put into social and political context for obvious reasons, it suits the preacher to say so.

This is a nice book on the subject, by Catherin Ponder
http://www.prosperitynetwork.com/Ponder.htm
************************************************
Dear Marc1,

1. Definitions of "Greed":
n1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves.
N2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice, covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]
(Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University )

2. Thus, Greed is "bad" or at least have some "bad" connotations, from its basic definitions.

3. The Medieval theologian, Thomas Aquinas had this to say of Greed: it is a sin against God, just as all mortal sins, inasmuch as Man condemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things." (2, 118, ad 1). for example, if we love Monies more than we love God. How do we know if we love "Monies" more than we love God? Our own hearts and inner thoughts will clearly reveal itself before God and to ourselves if we are prepared to be completely honest with ourselves... It does not really matter what the other people says, believe or see regarding our own level of love for Monies and for our God is like.

4. Does this follows then, that all Christians cannot be rich and have to be poor? The Bible never teaches that;- although I do recall there was a verse saying "Blessed are the poor in spirit;- for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven."(Matthew5:3)

5. The Bible also clearly teaches that the love of Money is the root of all evils (1 Timothy 6:10). It does not say that Money is evil in or of itself. Money is just a medium of usage. Thus, to me, Money can both be good and bad depending on how we use it or want to use it.

6. The Bible is however very specific and clear that if we love money more than we love God, then indeed we have sinned against God.

7. We are all born uniquely different. What is "sufficient" for you is not really "sufficient" for me or the other people. Thus, I believe it is quite fruitless and unneccessary to try to quantify what is the so-called "legitimate desire/self-interest" vs "greed";- for each one of us has to define our own needs/wants for pragmatic reasons. It is not something to be externally dictated and imposed upon us as our individual bodily/psychological needs are uniquely different.

8. Like you, I believe that God wants to prosper His Children and all we need to do is to reach out and accept His riches in glory. God does not want us to live mediocrately, He demands the best of each one of us. God also give His best to each of us according to our own measure of faith in Him.

9. It is not the amount of monies we have or can have, that is the issue at hand;- It is our love for Monies vis-a-vis our love for God as well as our own life attitude towards money that is the real issue we should be concerned with;- whether we allow Money to control/govern our lives or we continue to use money as a convenient medium of usage per se and nothing more than that.

10. Thus, by its own basic definition, "greed" is "bad" and spiritually wrong no matter how Man tries to rationalise/"legitimise" it. (... No, I'm not saying that Always_Learning is "greedy" or trying to rationalise his needs here.)

11. Each one of us will have to define our own needs and "legitimate" desire/self-interests, by examining our own needs and inner thoughts/heart. Then we will clearly know the boundary and limits of what is indeed the legitimate desire/self-interests vis-a-vis greed.

12. Consequently, I personally believe that Always_Learning can also learn to apply this principle in his case too and know the outcome for himself. It does not really matter what you or I think or say in this forum.

13. For your kind considerations and further comments if any,please.

14. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH
 
AntC said:
How can there be a limited supply, definately not on certain things, say if everyrone wanted to own there own aeroplane, and they said sorry we can only have 10,000 planes flying around the world maxmimum at one time. Bollocks !!!!.

I'm curious where you're going to park 19,000,000 Jumbo's for Australia.

Mind you, we've got some land....

Now, give a jumbo to everyone in USA / UK...


Reality - there is limits to certain things. The earth only has so much resources to give.

That's not to say that if I own more houses than you, I've stopped you from getting any more, or earning money another way.

Cheers
 
***********************************************
1. Definitions of "Greed":
n1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves.

Well this is a problematic definition, totally subjective. I think I deserve to purchase my house number 11 and that I need the income for my family's sake, yet my neighbour will assure you that I don't need that property and that from what he was told at the pub, I don't deserve it either... :)

N2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice, covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]
(Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University )

Leaving the Roman Catholic definitions aside, the above is a bit better ... yet on that definition alone any businessman worth his salt must be insatiable in his quest for advancement that per se brings more wealth. Why is that reprehensible? What is reprehensible acquisitiveness? Is there a non reprehensible acquisitiveness? And if so, the only interesting point is to define when does it turn from good to bad. Any thing else is irrelevant.

2. Thus, Greed is "bad" or at least have some "bad" connotations, from its basic definitions.

I am not saying that Greed is good or bad, only that
a) no one can define it without falling in the trap of "rich is bad poor is good",
b) The term greed is universally accepted as derogatory, we will not re-invent English. The interesting debate is to understand WHY ordinary people will automatically label others as greedy if those others, happen to have more than they themselves do, or have a healthy desire to advance, improve, have ambitions and are successful beyond what they think it to be "reasonable".
One of the reasons behind such behaviour I have identified in some Christian preachings, emerging from bad interpretations of the scriptures.

3. The Medieval theologian, Thomas Aquinas had this to say of Greed: it is a sin against God, just as all mortal sins, inasmuch as Man condemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things." (2, 118, ad 1). for example, if we love Monies more than we love God. How do we know if we love "Monies" more than we love God? Our own hearts and inner thoughts will clearly reveal itself before God and to ourselves if we are prepared to be completely honest with ourselves... It does not really matter what the other people says, believe or see regarding our own level of love for Monies and for our God is like.

I have very little regard for R.C. bibliography mostly because it stems from an organisation that has mingled in politics and occultism for far too long and that holds the record of highest Real Estate Holdings in the entire world, (toppled from the number one list recently by MacDonalds). Can such organisation be credible in preaching modesty and humility? I think that Ray Kroc is/was more credible in his sayings.

4. Does this follows then, that all Christians cannot be rich and have to be poor? The Bible never teaches that;- although I do recall there was a verse saying "Blessed are the poor in spirit;- for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven."(Matthew5:3)

Hum, what is a poor in spirit? Certainly not one with little money. A google search ' poor in spirit ' will reveal a big array of opinions, and surprise surprise even the classic author who will tell you matter of fact that rich people are arrogant and scornful whilst poor people are God loving and thankful.

The plot thickens, the vast majority of people will tell you what their subconscious mind dictates them. Problem is that the content of their subconscious mind has been programmed by others and thy are not necessarily aware of the values and antivalues they are using to make their statements.


5. The Bible also clearly teaches that the love of Money is the root of all evils (1 Timothy 6:10). It does not say that Money is evil in or of itself. Money is just a medium of usage. Thus, to me, Money can both be good and bad depending on how we use it or want to use it.

The love of money is the root of all evils Saul of Tarso
The lack of money is the root of most evil Marc

6. The Bible is however very specific and clear that if we love money more than we love God, then indeed we have sinned against God.

What do you know? we agree on that one all right!!


7. We are all born uniquely different. What is "sufficient" for you is not really "sufficient" for me or the other people. Thus, I believe it is quite fruitless and unnecessary to try to quantify what is the so-called "legitimate desire/self-interest" vs "greed";- for each one of us has to define our own needs/wants for pragmatic reasons. It is not something to be externally dictated and imposed upon us as our individual bodily/psychological needs are uniquely different.

We agree again...therefore... it is so very wrong for others to condemn the ambitious, the successful, the top achiever with words like "greed" or with implications of dishonesty or "excessive ambition".

I have walked out of some churches in the middle of the sermon, in fact I had occasion to rebuke the preacher in front of his flock when he had the audacity to talk down on ambitions like classic university career, medicine or law, telling the young audience it is wrong to pursue a "money loving career". The damage such mediocrity loving philosophy can do to young students is irreparable because it glorifies the excuse to give up, it justifies and supports mediocrity and the easy way out.
Give the crowd a reason for being as they are and they will love you. Tell them they need to do something they have to work harder and delay gratification and they will hate you... yet what is best? I came to call this the "poverty gospel" :rolleyes:

8. Like you, I believe that God wants to prosper His Children and all we need to do is to reach out and accept His riches in glory. God does not want us to live mediocre, He demands the best of each one of us. God also give His best to each of us according to our own measure of faith in Him.

Absolutely! See the parable of the talents. (I have avoided quotes and passages from the scriptures out of respect for others who may have a different faith or expect to stay on topic as much as one can do so)

9. It is not the amount of monies we have or can have, that is the issue at hand;- It is our love for Monies vis-a-vis our love for God as well as our own life attitude towards money that is the real issue we should be concerned with;- whether we allow Money to control/govern our lives or we continue to use money as a convenient medium of usage per se and nothing more than that.

Aha ! Now you are talking.
Who can say you are wrong?
No one.... yet ... how is it possible that a person that is successful in his business must endure the usual critics from the masses that point fingers and suddenly turned into sages and scribes, quote scriptures they have themselves never applied and know little about, and dare to presume to know what only the person himself can and that is, who he loves most, money or God?
Isn't the person calling you "greedy" implying all this things he most certainly is unable to know? So isn't it clear that whoever uses such label is showing a deep rooted anti-value of rejection towards success, based in decades of indoctrination through almost all that surrounds us?

I must add that I have the best times when I have the opportunity to say in public that prosperity comes from God and that whealth is a blessing and that anyone can and should be successful and that our talents and abilities are to be used in full.
Almost in an instant the whole audience seems to have embraced Christianity, and even the most convinced and self confessed atheist will quote me the bible, usualy the young ruler or the "camel" and the needle. (By the way the famous quote has been mistranslated for centuries, the camel should be: rope)... and words like greed and love of money fly thick and fast.

We have all been programmed for mediocrity and failure and duped into beleiving there must necessarily be something wrong with success and that the successful (defined by someone who is more than we are) arrived to his position by harming others, taking away other peoples chances and is necessarily evil, dishonest, inside trader, loves money, and at night time opens his secret safe to count the banknotes, smelling them and rolling in them with hysterical laughters.

10. Thus, by its own basic definition, "greed" is "bad" and spiritually wrong no matter how Man tries to rationalise/"legitimise" it. (... No, I'm not saying that Always_Learning is "greedy" or trying to rationalise his needs here.)

Hum, see above, greed is a derogatory label, no question about it, the problem is: who can genuinely say I am greedy besides God and me?

11. Each one of us will have to define our own needs and "legitimate" desire/self-interests, by examining our own needs and inner thoughts/heart. Then we will clearly know the boundary and limits of what is indeed the legitimate desire/self-interests vis-a-vis greed.

Agreed. Yet the word "need" is a dangerous to use here. Does the sprinter "need" to run faster? Does the doctor "need" the additional title of professor? Do I "need" to buy another property? Needs the solicitor become a barrister?
If we use this term, we may as well revert to communism or to live in caves.

12. Consequently, I personally believe that Always_Learning can also learn to apply this principle in his case too and know the outcome for himself. It does not really matter what you or I think or say in this forum.

I don't know AL that much but I am sure that the fact that he posted this question openly shows he is sensible to this controversy. There are lots of books on the subject but I think that Randy Gage had the most impact on my life on the subject of victim-hood and anti-values in his tape series "Prosperity"
Two weeks ago I received another book on a similar line, called "Shut up, stop whining & get a life" by Larry Winget. I didn't stop laughing through the whole book, that is rude and in your face but also spot on.

13. For your kind considerations and further comments if any,please.

Any time, it is a pleasure to find people who understand that debate is about exchange of ideas, about exploring other peoples minds and our own, exposing ourselvs for who we are, and not to say I am bigger / better / know it all.
This is what I think, this is what life has taught me, I like to know from you and learn from you and hope you may learn from me. :D

Yours sincerely
Marc GG
 
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Great thread, I was thinking this through last week when I had to teach a Religion lesson to 8 year olds which related to greed. Having to teach things to little kids puts them in a different light.

For anyone who is remotely interested, here is an in depth discussion on Wealth according to Jesus.

http://www.logosword.co.uk/articles/JesusAndWealth-1.htm

From the link...

Jesus taught from a mind-set that was generally positive toward wealth due to His roots in historic Israel and the teachings of the Old Testament scripture.

Followers of Christ are expected to [...] arrange their lives in such a way as to be able to maintain primary relationships and – with their righteously gained wealth – expand the kingdom of God and minister to the basic needs of the poor. Thus, Jesus does not negate the importance of ethically acquiring wealth, but He does insist on reasonable boundaries in its pursuit. Jesus warns of the seductiveness of riches, covetousness, and arrogance associated with material possessions. According to Jesus, temporal and material matters find ultimate value when linked to the higher and eternal purposes of the kingdom of God.
 
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I had a similar discussion with some members of my family, who thought I was greedy and selfish for being interested in wealth creation.... But the way I look at it is, If I can be MORE than self sufficient, then I have enough to give away significant amounts of money. I'm not reliant on govt assistance, or family assistance. I can be a lender instead of a borrower. I can be generous.

While, I think it is a selfish, greedy attitude to say "I only need enough for myself", because we should be looking at how we can - or to not want to earn money so that you can stay on a pension/ still receive child care benefits.

Pen
 
pennyk said:
I had a similar discussion with some members of my family, who thought I was greedy and selfish for being interested in wealth creation.... But the way I look at it is, If I can be MORE than self sufficient, then I have enough to give away significant amounts of money. I'm not reliant on govt assistance, or family assistance. I can be a lender instead of a borrower. I can be generous.

While, I think it is a selfish, greedy attitude to say "I only need enough for myself", because we should be looking at how we can - or to not want to earn money so that you can stay on a pension/ still receive child care benefits.

Pen

Thats a good point. It seems that the people who give, have the most and the people who take, have the least.

Whast that old saying about give to receive.
 
What is greedy?

Ask an employee:
"Greedy is someone starting a business because they exploit their employees and pay unreasonable wages"

Ask an employer:
"Greedy is not starting/expanding a business, because when you start a business you create jobs and generate wealth for all. Plus you one less person to deny someone else a job"

All a matter of perspective.........
 
rowdy said:

Hum Rowdy, this essay is not short nor is it on greed.

It is a long wining discourse on victim-hood, with all the classic stock victim ideas of how the bad rich in their vane pursue of self gratification trample on the poor and needy for their selfish desires yet are never able to be happy since wealth does not buy happiness.

If I may, here are two quotes from Larry Winget's book (Shut up, Stop Whining & Get a life)

Three Main Reasons People Are Not Successful:

They are stupid.
They are lazy.
They don't give a damn.

If your life sucks, it is because you suck.
Larry Winget
 
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