He's gone too Ruddy far this time

[our obsession]

From: https://www.tai.org.au/index.php?q=node/19&pubid=753&act=display

The Australia Institute disputes the Minerals Council of Australia's claim in its new advertising campaign that the mining industry's contribution to government revenues has been $80 billion over the past decade.
Our analysis shows that the mining industry in fact pays a lower average tax rate than Australian industry as a whole

Excerpt:

Our analysis shows that the mining industry in fact pays a lower average tax rate than Australian industry as a whole.

Using a broad measure of profits, the industry gross operating surplus, shows that the $80 billion contribution of the mining industry averages out at a corporate tax rate of only 19 per cent over the past decade.

For Australian industry as a whole the comparable figure is a corporate tax rate of 24 per cent of profits.

The mining industry’s claims are based on figures for the decade to June 2009.
The mining industry figure of $80 billion is divided by mining’s gross operating surplus (GOS) over the decade ending June 2009.

The GOS is obtained from the Australian National Accounts published by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. That gives the mining industry’s contribution to tax at 19.3 per cent of the industry GOS over the same period...read on

 

[aussierogue]

Winston

I am not a socialist - I vote generally for centre left democratic governments in Australia. If im a socialist so is over half the population!

 

[aussierogue]

Depending on yourself and not looking for 'handouts' is all very well if you are able to do this. If we go for this complete free market economy what happens to those who cant fend for themselves, who looks after them, the young, the old, the infirm, those injured in accidents that were no fault of their own.

What happens is exactly what happened in Russia in 1918 and France in 1789 - the power and money gets concentrated in the hands of the elite and eventually you get civil war as the masses revolt. The real point of these so called 'socialist' policies is actually civil order first and foremost. The bourgeoisie must be really careful that society does not break down.

Still I guess we could just 'let them eat cake'

I forgot to give you kudos - Marie Antoinette ref very nice. Yes same reason I wont be joining any landlord union anytime soon.

 

[topcropper]

Winston

I am not a socialist - I vote generally for centre left democratic governments in Australia. If im a socialist so is over half the population!

Was your statement that you vote green just an attempt at humour too? It's getting a bit complicated having a discussion when one is not sure if you are joking or not, and when the statement you make seems to be serious? When someone boldly states numerous times that they vote green, it's then hard for me to believe they are not socialist in thinking?

Perhaps we've been debating for days over the definition of socialism?

I'd define the Australian labor party as a socialist party. Not as socialist as the greens though. The liberals and nationals are more capitalist. So yes, after the 2007 election way over half the population had socialist thinking and wanted the change that comes with it.

Isn't the two major opposites in politics socialism and capitalism?

What is your definition of socialism?


See ya's.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Winston
If im a socialist so is over half the population!

and over half the population don't understand basic chemistry and physics....nor can they balance or live to a budget that caters for their retirement.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

The Australia Institute disputes the Minerals Council of Australia's claim in its new advertising campaign that the mining industry's contribution to government revenues has been $80 billion over the past decade.

The Australia Institute is a left wing propaganda unthink tank run by pro union ratbags with nil experience running large corporations, nor understanding of debt and equity, and how the former attracts interest, which needs to be subtracted from GOS.

 

[our obsession]

The Australia Institute is a left wing propaganda unthink tank run by pro union ratbags with nil experience running large corporations, nor understanding of debt and equity, and how the former attracts interest, which needs to be subtracted from GOS.

...and the issue over the point of the tax reckonings

Incidently, an intro for Clive Hamilton, for those unfamiliar with:

Clive Hamilton "is an Australian author and public intellectual. In June 2008 he was appointed Professor of Public Ethics at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, a joint centre of the Australian National University, Charles Sturt University and the University of Melbourne.

" For 14 years, until February 2008, he was the executive director of The Australia Institute, a progressive think tank he founded.

He holds an arts degree from the Australian National University (majoring in history, psychology and pure mathematics) and an economics degree from the University of Sydney (majoring in economics and government, with first class honours in the former). He completed a doctorate at the Institute of Development Studies at the University of Sussex with a thesis titled ‘Capitalist Industrialisation in Korea'

"Before establishing The Australia Institute he taught in the Graduate Program in the Economics of Development at the ANU then joined the Australian Public Service, first with the Bureau of Industry Economics and then at the newly formed Resource Assessment Commission. He also worked as a resource economist in Indonesia...

"He has published on a wide range of subjects but is best known for his books, a number of which have been best-sellers. They include:

- Growth Fetish (2003),

-Affluenza (with Richard Denniss, 2005),

-What’s Left: The death of social democracy (2006),

-Silencing Dissent (edited with Sarah Maddison, 2007) and

-Scorcher: The dirty politics of climate change (2007).

His latest book, titled The Freedom Paradox: Towards a post-secular ethics, was published by Allen & Unwin on 1 August 2008." [1]

In June 2009 he was made a Member of the Order of Australia for his service to public debate and policy development.

The Australia Institute

About TAI
The Australia Institute is the country’s most influential progressive think tank. Based in Canberra, it conducts research on a broad range of economic, social and environmental issues in order to inform public debate and bring greater accountability to the democratic process.

The Institute is funded by memberships, donations from philanthropic trusts and individuals, and commissioned research. With no formal political or commercial ties, the Institute is in a position to maintain its independence while advancing a vision for a fair and progressive Australia

Our Goal
The Institute is determined to push public debate beyond the simplistic question of whether markets or governments have all the answers to more important questions: When does government need to intervene in the market? When should it stand back? And when regulation is needed, what form should it take?


Who is The Australia Institute?
The Australia Institute’s Board represents a range of views and priorities, and its staff includes policy experts from fields as diverse as economics, public health and law. What unites us is a belief that, through a combination of research and creativity, we can develop the new ideas and practical policy solutions that a progressive Australia needs

Meet the Staff:

https://www.tai.org.au/index.php?q=node/4

Directors:

Sarah Maddison, Chair
Senior Associate Dean, School of Politics and International Relations, University of New South Wales


Meredith Edwards
Emeritus Professor, University of Canberra

Richard Denniss
Executive Director, The Australia Institute

Sharan Burrow
President, Australian Council of Trade Unions

Barbara Pocock
Director, Centre for Work and Life, University of South Australia

Hugh Saddler
Managing Director, Energy Strategies Limited

David Morawetz
Clinical and counselling psychologist and founder and director of the Social Justice Fund

Spencer Zifcak
Allan Myers Professor of Law, ACU and Barrister and Solicitor, Supreme Court of Victoria

Lin Hatfield Dodds
National Director, Uniting Care Australia and President, ACOSS

Ben Oquist
Chief of Staff, Senator Bob Brown

It's all balance.

 

[HiEquity]

It's all balance.

Hi OO

I assume you are agreeing with Winston's point? The Australia Institute is definitely "progressive" (read "left wing"), although Clive Hamilton is still worthy of considerable respect IMO. If you want to debate him you had better know your stuff...

I recommend the Lowy Institute, or even the Pond's Institute for some topics!

 

[Sunfish]

Seriously, there is nothing in Hamilton's bio to indicate he knows which way to tighten a nut.

He is clearly a very bright man but that does not guarantee anything.

 

[our obsession]

S'okay HiE, people are big enough to make up their own mind. I don't really care on that. If you were to take WW's word, or my word...well, that perhaps would be subjective? word.

It's an interesting site, with lots of interesting reading/research.

If you choose to think it's lefty propaganda....well, who cares really.

Another of it's research papers:

https://www.tai.org.au/index.php?q=node/19&pubid=79&act=display

Who is Better at Managing the Australian Economy: Labor or the Coalition?

June 1, 2005 P N (Raja) Junankar

A new analysis of the economic performance of the Hawke-Keating Labor Government and the Howard Government concludes that, in a reversal of what would be expected, Labor did better at controlling inflation and the real rate of interest, while the Coalition did better at reducing unemployment and cutting the current account deficit.
Sections: Government and Accountability | Economy

Lots of other stuff.

I'm not interested in labelling anyone here...and WW is just ---being himself.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

...and the issue over the point of the tax reckonings

Considering Clive's got it sorted, let him go start a bank, and lend to miners using the same criteria and rate as to the health services.

Then let him work out the % of mining start ups that go broke or run at a loss for >5 years, versus the health sector. Cos maybe that's got something to do with the net tax rate his underlings are playing with.

If you want balance OO, put your BANANA banner down (build absolutely nothing anytime near anybody), and read some of the right wing think tanks.

 

[MrCrumbpacker]

Good grief, anyone who doesn't think it a rag tag of greenies and pinkos, only needs to google the individuals on the members list!

Always interesting to read how they like to see themselves though!

 

[HiEquity]

If you choose to think it's lefty propaganda

Hi OO

Just to be clear I wouldn't go that far. The stuff I have read from these guys on different topics has often been well researched, concise and consistent. They do a good job.

But IMO there is no denying they also have a left wing "progressive" political bias, just as the Lowy Institute, to take an example, has a right wing one. Both claim to be "non-partisan" but it is clear through which lens they each view the world. Nothing wrong with that but worth keeping in mind when digesting what they have to say.

 

[our obsession]

Thanks HiE! Yes.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

HE, just re-noted your signature. Gandhi was a true and wise humanitarian imho....(and I am aware of his shortcomings.) Maybe Rudd can give his wife's wealth away and wear a dhoti to emulate Mohandas.

I think those who lean to the left, need to note your signature....if they think the have nots need more, then they should get about producing more, so as to give it to them.....

Failing that, they should willingly volunteer to be taxed at a higher rate than those who lean to the right, and let the govt distribute those taxes accordingly..

I'd then show them the respect they think they deserve for their moral superiority.

 

[our obsession]

HE, just re-noted your signature. Gandhi was a true and wise humanitarian imho....(and I am aware of his shortcomings.) Maybe Rudd can give his wife's wealth away and wear a dhoti to emulate Mohandas.

I think those who lean to the left, need to note your signature....if they think the have nots need more, then they should get about producing more, so as to give it to them.....

Failing that, they should willingly volunteer to be taxed at a higher rate than those who lean to the right, and let the govt distribute those taxes accordingly..

I'd then show them the respect they think they deserve for their moral superiority.

Reductio ad absurdum ..again.

 

[The Fence]

400 bucks not percent Thropey!

Oh...ok...(thorpey shruggs shoulders in bewilderment.....but decides to give this fool a chance to explain).............what 400 bucks then...???

I have no idea what you are inferring or getting at so give it up mate.

Hang on.....I know...you are pushing up your score of posts.......now why didn't I think of that earlier....should have guessed it with someone so full of themselves.....

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Reductio ad absurdum ..again.

yes, you are right. it is absurd to expect the morally superior to back their talk with their money.

 

[aussierogue]

Oh...ok...(thorpey shruggs shoulders in bewilderment.....but decides to give this fool a chance to explain).............what 400 bucks then...???

I have no idea what you are inferring or getting at so give it up mate.

Hang on.....I know...you are pushing up your score of posts.......now why didn't I think of that earlier....should have guessed it with someone so full of themselves.....

There you go getting personal again! You sound anrgy -- Want a hug?

 

[aussierogue]

yes, you are right. it is absurd to expect the morally superior to back their talk with their money.

Winston - your tone is getting worse. Dont you realise politics and religion are discussions that just cant be won?

Gandhi is from India! That is important because India is impoverished and has a billion people. That is the environment in which he operated and his views regarding self determination are completely valid. In the west its a little different! Socialism and capitalism need to be seen in context!

There is a reason Gandhi (his persona) was not born out of a upper middle class family from manhatten!