OECD report says australian private schools offer no accademic advantage

[lizzie]

I also believe that the old boys network, though somewhat diminished, is alive and well. There are many jobs which are not advertised. Particularly those which are not advertised externally, this happens a lot in large organisations, do not always go to the strongest candidate. Hopefully this too will continue to diminish but in my experience it is far from a historical happening.

Yep - still existing ... albeit was the professional network rather than old school boys ... which is why hubby walked into his new job 4 days after being retrenched.

Very much who you know rather than what after a few years in the workforce

As for the "property versus private school" ... if you, as a parent invest wisely, why not both? I know we will be doing such - with all 4 kids if they want it

 

[cimbom]

Graduate programs are not all identical jobs. I did one with my current employer and the grads that had particular qualifications (mainly programming/computer science type degrees and maths) were hired at one level above everyone else and consequently, got higher pay.

 

[Esel]

I think you're right to some degree. However there was a study a few years ago which showed that female graduates going through a graduate program in the same organisation, therefore identical jobs, were paid less. This was the case in a number of organisations. I'll see if I can find it, though it may not be publicly available.

Here's one recent story (still looking for the study)

http://theconversation.com/male-graduates-earn-more-than-female-graduates-study-28101

Yep, there was not article this year that showed how female graduates in few ares dentistry or accounting - I think, start on lower salaries. It's not just women with families.

 

[TMNT]

Yep, there was not article this year that showed how female graduates in few ares dentistry or accounting - I think, start on lower salaries. It's not just women with families.

well thats pretty unfair in my books, and is total BS,

are we comparing apples and apples though, eg. a male grad gets hired at higher rates then a female grad???

 

[property_girl]

Esel is correct: http://www.smh.com.au/national/tert...pay-gap-doubles-in-a-year-20130103-2c78q.html

That articles states:
Female dentistry graduates earned 15.7 per cent or $14,000 less than men whose median starting salary was $92,000.

 

[Esel]

So you have influenced where they will be educated through where you live, which is not markedly different to electing to send them to private school. I'm not criticizing btw, merely an observation. So what about the people who can't relocate into a good school zone for whatever reason? Financially they might be as well off to choose private school. Surely this is as valid a decision as choosing to move into a good school zone?
.

Yep - I agree with you to an extent. Peer group has some influence, and it definitely factored into my decision, but i don't think it's particularly significant. I picked this gov school because it has solid VCE results (but not exceptional), offers a particular programme I'm interested in and a parent group similar to me so I think it will reflect my values. Honestly, we could afford a local top tier private school (25k x 2) with better VCE results but I don't think its a better school and I don't think the kids, parents or school would reflect our values. I could also pick a mid level private school with kids from a similar socio economic background but I don't believe there would be any advantage and the VCE results are similar but it would cost 15k.

I do have another option, of a local gov school that isn't zoned at the moment, with lower VCE results, but looks to add more value than any of the others. The kids seem to perform above expectations even though they are poorer and achieve the lowest VCE results of any of the schools I've looked at. If i was going to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, I should definitely consider it when the time comes, if it's not zoned by then.

As I've acknowledged earlier I've definitely taught in a school that I would be sad to see my children at, but only one, and I've experience of a few.

Sometimes a private school will be the best option for variety of reasons, but I would never just chuck my money into one blindly without researching and looking at the evidence.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

are we comparing apples and apples though, eg. a male grad gets hired at higher rates then a female grad???

I don't think so. My first job was with a 'big 4' accounting firm and all grads started on the same.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Though the wage difference has been corrected to some degree, I find it abhorrent that even as graduates, for the same job, women are earning less than their male counterparts (note that this comment is based on stats from a few years ago).

This myth has been busted many times. Women do not earn less than men for the same work. When factors such as education, experience and number of hours worked are taken into account, the wage gap reduces to zero.

The real reason women earn less than men is because of choices that women make (occupation, flexibility of working hours, more likely to work part-time, less willing to travel, etc.). Not because their employers are paying them less because they happen to have been born without a Y chromosome.

It has been this way for a long time, it's not a new phenomenon.

 

[Esel]

I don't think so. My first job was with a 'big 4' accounting firm and all grads started on the same.

I don't think your sample size of one is statistically significant or relevant. Good job you don't work with numbers.

Oh wait..

 

[Esel]

This myth has been busted many times. Women do not earn less than men for the same work. When factors such as education, experience and number of hours worked are taken into account, the wage gap reduces to zero.

The real reason women earn less than men is because of choices that women make (occupation, flexibility of working hours, more likely to work part-time, less willing to travel, etc.). Not because their employers are paying them less because they happen to have been born without a Y chromosome.

It has been this way for a long time, it's not a new phenomenon.

Evidence?

Did you even read the articles linked by property_girl and serendip?

 

[Corey Batt]

The article is talking about a report from the Workplace Gender Equality Agency, a fine institution whose aim is to promote gender equality in workplaces.

It's shocking to know that some workplaces have a completely distortionate amount of one particular gender in their staff. Here's one example below!

Whoops!

 

[property_girl]

'Distortionate'???

What's your point?

 

[Lou Reed]

Cjay are you posting on 60 inch led?

Anyhow public versus private?

Where does good parenting come into play rather than rely on a school that is private?

What is wrong with public schools versus private schools?

Cheers

Ps.What's the stats btw versus private and public on students on results?

Pss.Personally i don't think private is any better when the student has good parenting,mindset and a go approach.imo anyway.

 

[MTR]

The article is talking about a report from the Workplace Gender Equality Agency, a fine institution whose aim is to promote gender equality in workplaces.

It's shocking to know that some workplaces have a completely distortionate amount of one particular gender in their staff. Here's one example below!

Whoops!

JClay
Got to love this, let me rationalise this, the majority of staff are clerks, Level 1, therefore they are females.

They only have x males cos they are level 8, they don't need too many of these guys.
Also, I am sticking my neck out here, but I reckon Centre Link would come close to this equation, how many female clerks Level 1????? Food for thought.

MTR

 

[Corey Batt]

'Distortionate'???

What's your point?

Gender and employment position arguments are farcical when you look at the realities. Another thing to ponder over:

Low level and graduate position remuneration packages are generally assigned by Human Resources, an employment sector with a high female %. Are we seriously saying the 'old boys club' heads are heading down stairs and making sure their lowest rung employees are paid marginally less, just because?

I'd hazard a guess that IF there is a discrepancy in pay levels, its more to do with comparing aggressive/dominate people vs submissive people. Australian society at large still sees it as an acceptable trait for men to be 'manly', with attributes such as a dominance being a key force.

In the end as a male or a female, you will only achieve the maximum pay by demanding it in a negotiation environment.

Edit:

Actually MTR, less than 10% of the WGEA management staff is male.

 

[property_girl]

...
As an investor - i know that statistically my girls will earn less than an extra 100k over their lifetimes if they go to uni, and take longer to pay off their hecs debt. . I know that the studies suggest private education wont make a difference to their achievement. So its probably not the best financial investment for anyone, especially girls.

Esel, all my children went to a private school--not because I chose it, but because my eldest decided when she was 14 that she wanted 'to do really well academically'. She told me which private school she wanted to go to, otherwise I would have kept her where she was. I then felt that, as I given the eldest that opportunity, I should give it to the other children.

I was very impressed with the private school she went to. The teachers were wonderful--they cared about each and every girl's abilities and their emotional wellbeing. They were truly plugged into my children. They called me immediately if they thought it necessary. There was A LOT of support for the girls; eg extra classes in all subjects which anyone could attend; there were guidance counsellors and psychologists; there were music groups, social clubs and a lot to do.. There were two indoor swimming pools, indoor basketball courts and sporting facilities; and a theatre.

In their last two years--years 11 and 12--all my children went to a public college (again, because they wanted to). The college staff were wonderful too, but didn't have the same resources to support the students and provide a safety net.

I just thought I would share that with you, because private schools do provide a lot of support, which sometimes the public schools are not able to.

 

[property_girl]

... I'd hazard a guess that IF there is a discrepancy in pay levels, its more to do with comparing aggressive/dominate people vs submissive people. Australian society at large still sees it as an acceptable trait for men to be 'manly', with attributes such as a dominance being a key force.

In the end as a male or a female, you will only achieve the maximum pay by demanding it in a negotiation environment..

I agree with you. Women are not assertive, don't push themselves forward, and too often do not believe in their own abilities. We are happy to collaborate and be an Indian rather than a chief. Most of us don't like to stick our necks out, be seen as pushy, and we have a need to be liked.

 

[wategos]

Public schools all the way for me and my kids, I?ve always considered them better and observations of post-school success seem to confirm this.

 

[Esel]

Esel, all my children went to a private school--not because I chose it, but because my eldest decided when she was 14 that she wanted 'to do really well academically'. She told me which private school she wanted to go to, otherwise I would have kept her where she was. I then felt that, as I given the eldest that opportunity, I should give it to the other children.

I was very impressed with the private school she went to. The teachers were wonderful--they cared about each and every girl's abilities and their emotional wellbeing. They were truly plugged into my children. They called me immediately if they thought it necessary. There was A LOT of support for the girls; eg extra classes in all subjects which anyone could attend; there were guidance counsellors and psychologists; there were music groups, social clubs and a lot to do.. There were two indoor swimming pools, indoor basketball courts and sporting facilities; and a theatre.

In their last two years--years 11 and 12--all my children went to a public college (again, because they wanted to). The college staff were wonderful too, but didn't have the same resources to support the students and provide a safety net.

I just thought I would share that with you, because private schools do provide a lot of support, which sometimes the public schools are not able to.

I think its great that your children had the choice. That must have been empowering for them.

I get the bit about support services, ive taught in public, private and catholic. Im not saying that public is always better, just that private doesn't always offer the academic advantages that people assume.

 

[property_girl]

Yes, your children won't be any 'smarter' if they go to a private school. In fact, our local public college has outperformed private colleges every year (in terms of ATAR scores).