The Big Bad Question.

[poperr]

Havn't read through much of this thread, but read the last couple of pages..

Someone asked the view of other religions on evolution.. I came across this interesting debate between Muslims and CHristians recently where I live here in Indonesia, Muslims were debating for creation whilst the Christian group was for evolution!!

Re this topic, I think the fact that when we pick up the Bible we read the exact jewish genealogy back to Adam, 6000 years, seems to put things in perspective for me. We havn't been on this planet as long a most think are my thoughts!! Mostly because there is a specific family tree to prove it!!

Re the whole religion stuff, I embrace faith but not religion.... History is very clear.... The organisation of the Christian religion happened 200 years after Christ, Christs original followers for the first 200 years never had a religion but faith. The same goes for Islam, it was formalised after the death of its founder!!

So the mess that religion creates are the doings of the followers, not a Bible problem or Jesus problem..

Anyway they are my thoughts...

Rob

 

[Perp]

As a side point does anyone know the positions of other religions in relation to evolution, eg buddhism, hinduism etc.

As somebody with a BSc in genetics and biochemistry, the stance of various religions on science and evolution was very important to me, when I conducted my own spiritual search. This is the Baha'i position, which I find an appealing reconciliation of spiritual and material:

'... traditional religious beliefs, including the Bahá'í teachings, emphatically uphold the uniqueness of man and his special destiny. How can this perspective, which sets man apart from the animal and which implies that evolution has a predetermined course, be reconciled with the undeniable fact of common descent and with the apparently blind forces of chance mutation and natural selection?

'A metaphor drawn from the Bahá'í Writings may offer a solution. In them, man is referred to as the "fruit" on the "tree" of existence. By implication, the other plant and animal species can be likened to the other parts of the tree: leaves, roots, bark, and so forth. Each part shares common descent from one seed and becomes differentiated in time. Last to appear is the fruit, which existed in potential from the beginning - and in this sense it was always the fruit, never leaf or root or bark. ...

'In the growth of a physical tree, as in the development of the evolutionary tree, chance can play a major role. The chaotic forces of wind and weather can greatly alter the course of the tree's development, and entire branches may even be broken off in a storm - as suggested in the case of evolution on Earth by the sudden extinction of the dinosaurs. There is no way to predict in every detail the final shape of the tree, or on which branches the first fruits will appear. What is certain is that if the tree survives to maturity, somewhere the fruit will appear - that fruit being not the physical form of man but that power of self-awareness which is capable of pondering the mystery and meaning of its own emergence.

'Such an organic conception of the emergence of human life need not imply - as in some versions of so-called "intelligent design" theory - that the blueprint of life was fixed at the beginning. It does predict that, throughout the universe, and wherever conditions permit, life and consciousness will be emergent tendencies of matter.'

More generally, the Baha'i Faith teaches that science and religion are harmonious:

'The fourth teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the agreement of religion and science. God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.'

 

[artemis]

traditional Christianity does not view creation and science as incongruent..
whether being big-bang or another theory, the belief is that God was always behind it.. that it wasn't by fluke or chance, but through God.. that does not mean, however, that traditional Christianity accepts the Darwinist theory of evolution, or that we evolved from apes..

 

[Token Funder]

traditional Christianity does not view creation and science as incongruent..
whether being big-bang or another theory, the belief is that God was always behind it.. that it wasn't by fluke or chance, but through God.. that does not mean, however, that traditional Christianity accepts the Darwinist theory of evolution, or that we evolved from apes..

"traditional" Christianity (the Bible) gives lots of guidance on how to treat your slaves and plenty of rules under which circumstances you are entitled to to murder men, women and children.

It contains no celebration of intelligence, knowledge or science.

As with the other Abrahamic sects, it is inconsistent not only with science, but with humanity.


http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

 

[artemis]

ah yes but it is not traditional christianity that follows or even believes in these practises..
fundamentalist christianity, the call of the wild west of america, is very different to traditional christianity which uses patristic texts to interpret the bible..

 

[Token Funder]

ah yes but it is not traditional christianity that follows or even believes in these practises..
fundamentalist christianity, the call of the wild west of america, is very different to traditional christianity which uses patristic texts to interpret the bible..

Interpreted in the context of a historical document or as some sort of divinely inspired Where's Waldo book?

 

[Perp]

Interpreted in the context of a historical document or as some sort of divinely inspired Where's Waldo book?

TF, it's comments like this that cause these discussions to degenerate and ultimately get closed down. I don't understand why you feel the need to mock the beliefs of others, even if you don't share them. I think that's just plain rude.

 

[Francesco]

"traditional" Christianity (the Bible) gives lots of guidance on how to treat your slaves and plenty of rules under which circumstances you are entitled to to murder men, women and children.

It contains no celebration of intelligence, knowledge or science.

As with the other Abrahamic sects, it is inconsistent not only with science, but with humanity.


http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

TF

Do the following constitute Biblical examples of celebrating being alive, natural creations, upholding knowledge and curiosity in phenomena?

Psalms 8:3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.

Practically the whole book of Proverbs are words of wisdom. The following verses inspired some great Christian engineers (eg aerodynamics, dynamics, hydrodynamics) and scientists (psychology?):

Proverbs 30: 18 Three things are too wonderful for me; four I do not understand: 19 the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a maiden.

The following verses hold wisdom that could have inspired studies about cycles in human life-spans forming the basis of many nobel prizes in economics:

Ecclesiastes 3:1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 3:2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,

Christianity is based on belief in Jesus, who admits to being Truth and following Him requires upholding and practising truth:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

IMHO the theory of evolution falls short of being credible by itself, not for lack of consideration by Christians.

 

[Token Funder]

TF, it's comments like this that cause these discussions to degenerate and ultimately get closed down. I don't understand why you feel the need to mock the beliefs of others, even if you don't share them. I think that's just plain rude.

People are entitled to respect.

Beliefs are not.

 

[Token Funder]

TF

Do the following constitute Biblical examples of celebrating being alive, natural creations, upholding knowledge and curiosity in phenomena?

Psalms 8:3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.

Practically the whole book of Proverbs are words of wisdom. The following verses inspired some great Christian engineers (eg aerodynamics, dynamics, hydrodynamics) and scientists (psychology?):

Proverbs 30: 18 Three things are too wonderful for me; four I do not understand: 19 the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a maiden.

The following verses hold wisdom that could have inspired studies about cycles in human life-spans forming the basis of many nobel prizes in economics:

Ecclesiastes 3:1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 3:2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,

Christianity is based on belief in Jesus, who admits to being Truth and following Him requires upholding and practising truth:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

IMHO the theory of evolution falls short of being credible by itself, not for lack of consideration by Christians.

Not sure, but that's not what I wrote (read again).

Besides, the Bible establishes the Big Guy's view on these things pretty early in the piece:

Genesis 2 16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'


That said, I've got multiple copies and versions of all the major religious texts and a few of the less fashionable ones. There's some genuinely good literature in the Old Testament ,though there's a fair bit you wouldn't want your kids to read:

Ezekiel 23:20
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses

Even have a Book of Mormon (kinds of New Testament II) which is the most recently written so is *bound* to be the most accurate.

The natural world and our reason-based understanding of it works pretty well. Praying to save starving children in Africa tends not to work quite as well as high-protein biscuits, wayer purifiers and modern antibiotics

In any case, once you understand why you have chosen not to believe in the many thousands of gods and godesses that you ignore, understanding why I don't believe in the particular iteration you have embraced should be pretty easy.

After all, you disbelieve in the same number of gods and traditions as me - 1.

 

[artemis]

People are entitled to respect.

Beliefs are not.

semantics..
i don't mock people's beliefs.. it's something that is personal to them.. by mocking their belief, you are mocking them..

 

[Olly]

read genesis - adam and eve had many children

Adam and Eve had 2 sons - Cain and Abel.
that's 4 people.
Cain kills Abel and is banished.
that's 3 people.... 2 men and one woman.
are we all inbred?

Note:The following is written a bit 'shorthand' - I'm sure you'll follow though.

The generally 'accepted' religious story that we all descended from Adam & Eve is the biblical version of events. The Bible is made up of many stories - carefully chosen to create a particular thread/picture/story. But what of the stories that weren't included?
One of the stories IS the Adam & Eve story. Adam had a wife before Eve and her name was Lilith and she was created equal to Adam. Adam, however, tried to boss her around and she wouldn't have a bar of that, so Adam had a whinge to God and asked to divorce her and get another one and God granted his wish. He got Eve who was made from part of his rib (meaning that Eve is part of him - ownership etc.) There was nothing wrong with Lilith, but the power hungry men who were trying to dominate rising religions at the time were trying to quash the power of women in religion (who used to be preachers & healers too), so they started a smear campaign against Lilith and it still continues today. Anyone remember the cold ***** in the TV show Frasier? - her name was Lilith. Anyone follow the TV show Supernatural? The rising evil demon is an angelic little girl called - you guessed it - Lilith!
The smear campaign then was subtly applied to all women and over time women have been painted as seducers, devious, not to be trusted or given positions of power etc. (Eve tempted Adam with the apple remember? He could have knocked it back of course, but apparently a womens power of persuasion borders on magical trickery and he couldn't resist so it wasn't his fault!) Some examples of the consequences of all this in present day is, women not allowed to be ministers, differences in pay between men & women for same work, glass ceilings which women can't break through, most positions of power held by men and so on.

Obvious to see why the book of Adam & Eve wasn't included isn't it? Adam looked like a whiney, lazy sod who didn't have respect for his missus, God looked like he favoured men over women and would do 'mans' bidding without much fuss and so on.

Imagine how different the world would have been if God had instead said, "Get off your lazy bum Adam and get your own beer out of the fridge - Lilith isn't here to do your bidding."

But it doesn't really matter does it 'cos it's all just stories. It's just a shame the influence the bible stories have had.

Olly

 

[our obsession]

Olly:

Note:The following is written a bit 'shorthand' - I'm sure you'll follow though.

The generally 'accepted' religious story that we all descended from Adam & Eve is the biblical version of events. The Bible is made up of many stories......thru to:...............................................
But it doesn't really matter does it 'cos it's all just stories. It's just a shame the influence the bible stories have had.

Hallelujah Sister!

Well put Olly, so well put, the power, (and choice) of interpretation, (by some), and years of influence that has had....to this very day, 21 century!

Width and breadth of the globe..

I love you Olly.

Kudos and a big sister hug to you..

 

[poperr]

I don't quite understand. Are you saying these characters in the Bible are fictive? From this list dating back to Adam, are there some periods where you have better records?

This is one area which is very difficult to debate I think, Jewish people had genealogies memorised for milleniums as well as historical data, my brother-in-law, growing up as a devout Jew, memorised large chunks of the Torah. Anyway here is the list as from Luke...

Now Jesus Himself began [His ministry at] about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) [the] son of Joseph, [the son] of Heli,
Luk 3:24 [the son] of Matthat, [fn] [the son] of Levi, [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Janna, [the son] of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Amos, [the son] of Nahum, [the son] of Esli, [the son] of Naggai,
Luk 3:26 [the son] of Maath, [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Semei, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Judah,
Luk 3:27 [the son] of Joannas, [the son] of Rhesa, [the son] of Zerubbabel, [the son] of Shealtiel, [the son] of Neri,
Luk 3:28 [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Addi, [the son] of Cosam, [the son] of Elmodam, [the son] of Er,
Luk 3:29 [the son] of Jose, [the son] of Eliezer, [the son] of Jorim, [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi,
Luk 3:30 [the son] of Simeon, [the son] of Judah, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Jonan, [the son] of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 [the son] of Melea, [the son] of Menan, [the son] of Mattathah, [the son] of Nathan, [the son] of David,
Luk 3:32 [the son] of Jesse, [the son] of Obed, [the son] of Boaz, [the son] of Salmon, [the son] of Nahshon,
Luk 3:33 [the son] of Amminadab, [the son] of Ram, [the son] of Hezron, [the son] of Perez, [the son] of Judah,
Luk 3:34 [the son] of Jacob, [the son] of Isaac, [the son] of Abraham, [the son] of Terah, [the son] of Nahor,
Luk 3:35 [the son] of Serug, [the son] of Reu, [the son] of Peleg, [the son] of Eber, [the son] of Shelah,
Luk 3:36 [the son] of Cainan, [the son] of Arphaxad, [the son] of Shem, [the son] of Noah, [the son] of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 [the son] of Methuselah, [the son] of Enoch, [the son] of Jared, [the son] of Mahalalel, [the son] of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 [the son] of Enosh, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.

 

[Olly]

I don't quite understand. Are you saying these characters in the Bible are fictive?

Hmmm, a hard one to answer. If you're talking just about Adam & Eve - not neccesarily, but as the first 2 humans created from which all further humans sprang? No way! Firstly because they weren't the first 2 humans created - Lilith came before Eve, then apparently Adam had a go at making the perfect woman (Eve Mk I) but didn't like what he'd made, so God took over and made the apple tempting Eve (Mk II). (I wonder what happened to Eve MK I? The first throw away for a better model?) Then there's some writings that give the hint that Adam and Lilith had a few kids before splitting up, and that's if you even believe there's any truth to any of this stuff to begin with!

From this list dating back to Adam, are there some periods where you have better records?

Of course I don't have any records, but the list you have provided is - from the Bible. Are you saying the records you have listed are true & accurate? Why? Because they are from the Bible? And so we start going round in circles. And here is where religious debate falls apart, because you either believe the biblical version of events or you don't. If you believe the family line to be true and accurate then you also believe Methuselah lived to be 969 years of age, Noah - 950, Terah - 205 and so on.

There is sooooo much we could discuss, but this thread is not the place for it. Besides, methinks it will be pretty pointless. I feel you may be quite firm in your beliefs and I know I am.

Olly

 

[Aaron Sice]

there is no evidence - i will keep coming back to the missing link - show me the hundreds upon thousands of fossils that show the evolution of that dinosaur into a bird...

i believe msdawnrazor just posted the perfect pic. you can't FIND hundreds of thousands of fossils. but we can find one or two examples of each and use the amazing power of our brain and deductibility to apply a sense of logic to the situation to come up with a conclusion.

humans walking with dinosaurs? what are we talking about here, The Flintstones...?

 

[Aaron Sice]

Note:The following is written a bit 'shorthand' - I'm sure you'll follow though.

The generally 'accepted' religious story that we all descended from Adam & Eve is the biblical version of events. The Bible is made up of many stories - carefully chosen to create a particular thread/picture/story. But what of the stories that weren't included?
One of the stories IS the Adam & Eve story. Adam had a wife before Eve and her name was Lilith and she was created equal to Adam. Adam, however, tried to boss her around and she wouldn't have a bar of that, so Adam had a whinge to God and asked to divorce her and get another one and God granted his wish. He got Eve who was made from part of his rib (meaning that Eve is part of him - ownership etc.) There was nothing wrong with Lilith, but the power hungry men who were trying to dominate rising religions at the time were trying to quash the power of women in religion (who used to be preachers & healers too), so they started a smear campaign against Lilith and it still continues today. Anyone remember the cold ***** in the TV show Frasier? - her name was Lilith. Anyone follow the TV show Supernatural? The rising evil demon is an angelic little girl called - you guessed it - Lilith!
The smear campaign then was subtly applied to all women and over time women have been painted as seducers, devious, not to be trusted or given positions of power etc. (Eve tempted Adam with the apple remember? He could have knocked it back of course, but apparently a womens power of persuasion borders on magical trickery and he couldn't resist so it wasn't his fault!) Some examples of the consequences of all this in present day is, women not allowed to be ministers, differences in pay between men & women for same work, glass ceilings which women can't break through, most positions of power held by men and so on.

Obvious to see why the book of Adam & Eve wasn't included isn't it? Adam looked like a whiney, lazy sod who didn't have respect for his missus, God looked like he favoured men over women and would do 'mans' bidding without much fuss and so on.

Imagine how different the world would have been if God had instead said, "Get off your lazy bum Adam and get your own beer out of the fridge - Lilith isn't here to do your bidding."

But it doesn't really matter does it 'cos it's all just stories. It's just a shame the influence the bible stories have had.

Olly

yes - my point was showing that the bible is not something to be taken literally, as a great many fundamentalists do. i think you have just re-confirmed what i was saying here. Lilith is a very good story and a great example of the fear that the early christian leaders had of strong, intelligent women upsetting their domination plans by bringing *drum roll* independant thought to the arguments.

the christian witchhunts that this resulted in, saw a great many lines of knowledge regarding natural remedies and medicines removed from the public consciousness. this is where the analogy of the "witch and the cauldron" come from - women actually used to make potions and elixirs in cauldrons from all sorts of ingredients from centuries upon centuries of handed down knowledge from trial and error.

the crusades, both small and large, have a lot to answer for. the middle ages set the entire world back possibly 1000 years, as far as mental and harmonious development is concerned.

i think one day the human race will look back on the Vatican spin and see the error if it's ways, much like we view Ancient Egyptian slavery, with the Vatican able to admit it.

ah, pie in the sky...

 

[topcropper]

Dinosaurs became birds? This is the sort of statement that would make me say........hang on a minute.......could that be right.

Pretty easy to understand under the circumstances. That is, a massive extinction event 65 million years ago when a comet/meteor slamed into the gulf of Mexico.

This event is pretty much proven now. It was what led to the rise of birds and mammals.

It was a cataclysmic event that wiped out most plant and animal species and everything had to start again. The big dinosaurs had no chance. The only ones that survived were the very smallest ones, the ones that evolved into birds. This also allowed the tiny rodent animals to evolve into mammals and eventually monkeys and then apes and then man.


If you find dinosaurs to birds hard to believe, then what about this?

Without this comet and extinction event, the dominant animal on the planet may have been a reptile sort of thing, and it may have reached mans level of technology tens of millions of years ago.

Or perhaps reptiles may never have reached any level of intelligence, mammals remained tiny rodents, dodging being stepped on by the giant dinosaurs, and man would never have existed without the slate being swept clean, that happened with the comet impact.





I've got to congratulate everyone on this thread. Not many religious threads get to stay without sim getting rid of it. Lets keep this rare one going too eh. No one stuff it up.

Bit pointless getting into slanging match about this subject. Seems we have the brain we are given by nature/god. You either believe one thing, or the exact opposite. Can't get too much more opposite than evolution/creation.

See ya's.

 

[Aaron Sice]

so, i guess then we get back to the Faith question.

which bring me to another question - to those that have faith, what is God?

some folk on here believe in both God and the Big Bang - so what is God for those people?

 

[Bill.L]

Poperr,

You will have to explain this one to me...

Luk 3:38 [the son] of Enosh, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.

Seth, son of Adam?? I thought Adam only had 2 sons, Cain and Abel???

bye