Time spent on the internet vs Body Mass Index

Well this is fun..

Sort of have forgotten what the thread is about..but would any of you have any more pictures of cute guys in their underwear..[little less steroidal is fine too]
thanks a lot.
Pam
 
For anyone that wants to lose the kg's or put on some lean kg's, I can't recommend enough the following website: www.t-nation.com.
Sultan - have a look for Scrawny to Brawny
Big fella - check out the Velocity diet
 
bigfella966 said:
A couple of years ago I dropped 20kg on the Atkins but over time put about half that back on, so I reckon I'll give that another crack (FEED THE MAN MEAT), between that and trampolining, I might be a tender for the Olympic gymnastics team soon :rolleyes:

BF
BF, I have worked with a lot of US NFL guys, as well as English Rugby national reps. One of the bigger English national reps was 6'5" and 160kg when match fit, but that was 15 years ago. He is now 140kg and at serious risk of heart disease. Why? Cos he still thinks he is 25 and that he's carrying as much muscle and as little fat as then.. I have had a hard time convincing him he has to rip the fat off, because as well as being under his skin, it is in his heart muscle, and arterial walls, slowing blood flow to his heart, muscle, and brain, and setting him up for a pulmonary embolism, a dissecting abdominal aneurysm, a silent ischaemic myocardial infarct, or a gross cerebrovascular accident.

He had a similar story to you where he has had a lot of success dieting on the Atkins Program. However, the Atkins program isn't a sustainable diet for a healthy life, though it does help people conditioned to high protein and fat diets lose weight in the short term. It will cruel your kidneys eventually. It is far wiser to forget all the hype the body builders and Atkins crew go on with, and stick to the science. Rosemary Stanton and Gary Eggers know their stuff.

There isn't a week go by where I don't see a body builder screw his back, shoulder, elbow, or knee, by trying to follow the advice of the more learned at the local gym, or on the web. The trouble, is body builders don't brag about their injuries like they do their PBs.
 
thefirstbruce said:
There isn't a week go by where I don't see a body builder screw his back, shoulder, elbow, or knee, by trying to follow the advice of the more learned at the local gym, or on the web. The trouble, is body builders don't brag about their injuries like they do their PBs.
Bruce,

So, if I'm a relatively slow gainer at 70kg for 168cm, what would you recommend I do to increase my gains of lean mass. I wanna look like one of those "pictures of cute guys in their underwear" for Pam. ;) :D

I currently eat a pretty balanced diet and graze regularly to ramp up my metabolism. I've shifted most of the fat and am now gradually piling on the lean mass but slowly. I've plateaued a bit on my weights but do resistance training 3 times a week for a bit over an hour each session and take a day off between each workout for recovery. I do a two way split of back+bis/chest+tris with abs and shoulders in every workout. I do 3 sets/8 reps on each exercise doing pretty much my max weight on every set, no pyramiding. My weights are good, I bench my bodyweight and free dip with extra weight suspended to add resistance. I start with the big compound exercises then isolate the smaller muscle groups in the final exercises of each workout when they're already flogged.

Its going OK and I always get a nice burn and soreness on recovery days so I know I'm targetting the groups well. I can see the change in body shape already, but would like it to move along a bit quicker if possible. I've been at it like this for about 9 months now and am the same weight as when I started. Big difference is I've gone from the 25% odd body fat down to around 12% body fat and held my body weight and reshaped nicely thus far. I'm not taking any supplements and was thinking about a protein drink or some such to help with muscle growth and recovery. When I was into it as a kid I took the protein drinks and BCAA powder and liver tabs and... Now I just eat well and workout regularly. No way known am I touching the juice or anything like creatine...

Help? Thoughts/suggestions???

Cheers,
Michael.
 
MichaelWhyte said:
Bruce,

So, if I'm a relatively slow gainer at 70kg for 168cm, what would you recommend I do to increase my gains of lean mass. I wanna look like one of those "pictures of cute guys in their underwear" for Pam. ;) :D

I currently eat a pretty balanced diet and graze regularly to ramp up my metabolism. I've shifted most of the fat and am now gradually piling on the lean mass but slowly. I've plateaued a bit on my weights but do resistance training 3 times a week for a bit over an hour each session and take a day off between each workout for recovery. I do a two way split of back+bis/chest+tris with abs and shoulders in every workout. I do 3 sets/8 reps on each exercise doing pretty much my max weight on every set, no pyramiding. My weights are good, I bench my bodyweight and free dip with extra weight suspended to add resistance. I start with the big compound exercises then isolate the smaller muscle groups in the final exercises of each workout when they're already flogged.

Its going OK and I always get a nice burn and soreness on recovery days so I know I'm targetting the groups well. I can see the change in body shape already, but would like it to move along a bit quicker if possible. I've been at it like this for about 9 months now and am the same weight as when I started. Big difference is I've gone from the 25% odd body fat down to around 12% body fat and held my body weight and reshaped nicely thus far. I'm not taking any supplements and was thinking about a protein drink or some such to help with muscle growth and recovery. When I was into it as a kid I took the protein drinks and BCAA powder and liver tabs and... Now I just eat well and workout regularly. No way known am I touching the juice or anything like creatine...

Help? Thoughts/suggestions???

Cheers,
Michael.


Michael,

This info is of a general nature, and to avoid injury, which you will be very prone to in bulking up, I seriously recommend you seek out a top strength and conditioning coach. You can't afford to be stupid or impulsive about knocking your body around.

Just remember you will lose the additional mass quickly once you stop flogging yourself. And that the heavy weights you will have to do will knock the hell out of your cartilage, and lead to earlier onset arthritis than otherwise. Cartilage doesn't renew itself well at all.

I'd encourage you to think carefully about whether it is more important to look good in the mirror, or to be able to play soccer with your kids when they are in their teens.



DIET


- take a multi vitamin like centrum.

- do creatine.

- do glucosamine, chondroitin sulphate, salmon, mackeral, flax seed, olive oil, and stay away from canola oil; to dampen joint inflammation and preserve cartilage.

- make your own protein powder drink (mix a glass of warm water with 4tblspns of skim milk powder, 2tblspns brewer's yeast, 1tblspn lecithin, 1 tspn dolomite,) and have every morning.

- do a gram of vitamin C powder a day.

- do lean flesh cuts at no more than 1.7grams per kg of bodyweight per day.

- keep your fibrous and starchy carbs up. Don't skimp on dark green, red, and orange veges. Do heaps of steamed vege and salad.

- keep up the 6 meals a day, and do the protein drink above, with a protein and carb meal within 20 mins of finishing your resistance workout.


Lifestyle

- the most important thing for muscle hypertrophy is ensuring anabolism outweighs catabolism. This means get to sleep early, no later than 9.30 pm, and get 8 hours of good quality sleep. You may need 9 hours when pushing yourself like this, and a nap after workouts or on the weekend.

- take your wife to the gym with you. Believe me, this will revolutionize life for both of you forever. Eventually build a gym at home.


Resistance


- gradually build your routines to this, and remember, this is the final goal. I do not recommend routines like this to anyone without personally assessing them, and checking joints and tendons. Use this for educational purposes only.

Cut your cardio back to 3-4 x 20 mins. Best to do stationery bike 7mins, elliptical trainer 7 mins, concept II rower 5 mins.

stretch all major muscle groups

work your core, before you do the high resistance.

Cut your resistance training back to once every third day as we are focusing on a Short sharp stimulus followed by rest time for anabolism. You build musce in your sleep and when sedentary. The workout is the stimulus to your endocrine system.

Give yourself around 90sec-2 mins between sets. In that time, shake the muscles and stretch them gently.

Sets are ramped up to
1x12 for joint and muscle lubrication and warmup.
1x8
1x5
1x3

USE A SPOTTER, so you can overload. You should need help on the concentric phase, and go slow (~3-4 seconds) or super slow (~5-6 seconds) on the eccentric phase. The last set should burn and exhaust the muscle completely. You have to seriously burn the muscle with each set. You are going to be seriously sore most of the week.

Be very careful with these exercises. Whenever overloading, you are likely to damage joints, ligaments, and tendons so much more easily. That's why you must have a good base, and have warmed and stretched the tissue sufficiently. And best to do the exercise slowly. Best time for heavy weights is mid to late morning, or late afternoon. Joints are optimally wet then, and the body warm, and circadian rhythms favourable.

I don't recommend:
- full dips (they wring out and rip the anterior shoulder capsule) do half to 2/3 instead.
- lat pull downs with a pronated grip (they internally rotate the shoulder joint and impinge the rotator cuff towards the end of pull down) better to do with a palms facing grip or supinated grip.
- full bench press (they stretch and weaken the anterior joint capsule, leave one susceptible to anterior joint dislocation. and yes I have seen this even in the most successful of body builders) best to keep bar about 5-8 cms off your chest)
- I don't recommend squats, dead lifts, military presses, or bent over rows. (I have just seen too many disc prolapses, and stuffed knee menisci when doing heavy resistance)

Remember that the ripped look is mainly about losing bodyfat, not bulking up. Competitors bulk up and overeat for 6 months leading up to a comp, then cut down on Cals for the last 6-8 weeks, to get cut. This is hard on the body and brain though. They also go into comps having drank far too little water in the previous 24 hours.

I could go on and on, but it is a big field, with lots of conflicting advice. I recommend alternating sets between agonists and antogonists, which is something bodybuilders don't normally do, but their understanding of physiology does not encompass optimal use of neural networks or blood flow and glycogen stores.
 
Hey TFB

What do you think of the Following ?

Bill PHILLIPS "Body For Life" Program

and the new

CSIRO Diet book

I'd be interestedin your feedback

REDWING
 
I would like to thank Bruce for his outstanding post above. There was a lot of time and effort put into that educational post.

Well done.
 
Came across this diet years ago..it seems to go against the grain of many others, but still popular with some..

very confusing for the averageperson trying to establish what is correct for you:confused:

The WARRIOR Diet

Its been an interesting thread TFB which certainly has gained interest from many forumites..as Todd said-great work and informative posts

Thanks

Redwing
 
thefirstbruce said:
BF, I have worked with a lot of US NFL guys, as well as English Rugby national reps. One of the bigger English national reps was 6'5" and 160kg when match fit, but that was 15 years ago. He is now 140kg and at serious risk of heart disease. Why? Cos he still thinks he is 25 and that he's carrying as much muscle and as little fat as then.. I have had a hard time convincing him he has to rip the fat off, because as well as being under his skin, it is in his heart muscle, and arterial walls, slowing blood flow to his heart, muscle, and brain, and setting him up for a pulmonary embolism, a dissecting abdominal aneurysm, a silent ischaemic myocardial infarct, or a gross cerebrovascular accident.

He had a similar story to you where he has had a lot of success dieting on the Atkins Program. However, the Atkins program isn't a sustainable diet for a healthy life, though it does help people conditioned to high protein and fat diets lose weight in the short term. It will cruel your kidneys eventually. It is far wiser to forget all the hype the body builders and Atkins crew go on with, and stick to the science. Rosemary Stanton and Gary Eggers know their stuff.

There isn't a week go by where I don't see a body builder screw his back, shoulder, elbow, or knee, by trying to follow the advice of the more learned at the local gym, or on the web. The trouble, is body builders don't brag about their injuries like they do their PBs.
Thanks TFB,

I can relate to the Pommie bloke, the reason I'm going too drop the beef is that I had an annual checkup and the Doc said that my BP is elevated and if I don't lose the lard, I'm a contender for a heart attack or stroke and would have to go on BP medication (he didn't use all them big words you did, he probably knew it'd go over me head ;) ).

Again, me also, the brain is 25, but the body sure ain't anymore.

So, what do you think about doing the low carb/high protein thing as a short term (high weight loss), then a more balanced maintenance diet after. My problem is that I'm a big eater and a lettuce leaf diet don't cut it with me, when I feel hungry, I just have to eat, at least on the protein diet I felt contented after a feed and still had the energy to do things (I do a lot of physical work & activities).

I recall something about a "bulking agent" that you either drink or eat that filled you up so you didn't feel hungry, do you think that might be a go with a more balanced diet as an alternative to a protein diet?

I'll look into the Gutbusters & Professor Trim plans also, as they're suited for blokes I gather they would have larger portioned meals?

Regards,
BF
 
Sultan of Swing said:
Welcome to my life...lol. :eek:

I'm at the other end of the scale.

BMI 19.5 190cm 73kg. Never have been able to put much weight on ... sigh.
Hey SOS,

Just imagine what we'd be like if we could combine and divide,

I'd bet ya it'd make "Our obsession" a li'l excited if we posted pic's :D

BF;)
 
bigfella966 said:
Hey SOS,

Just imagine what we'd be like if we could combine and divide,

I'd bet ya it'd make "Our obsession" a li'l excited if we posted pic's :D

BF;)

Hahaha, that it would BG. At the moment it sounds like we could do a Laurel and Hardy impersonation. (No offence meant;) )

I shouldn't sigh too much though, I'm fairly healthy. By the sounds of things you better take care. We'd hate to have something bad happen to you.

My dad has tried done the low carb/ high protien diet a few times, mainly as a weight loss cos he tends to get a bit on the larger side. Its worked well for him and when he gets down to a weight he's happy with he eases off it. He's been off it a while and slowly put a bit of bulk back on so just recently gone back on it and is lossing it again. He just monitors it albeit a little poorly :p .

Getting back to the original question, as i said, BMI is 19.5, personal time on the internet, way too much. Usually 3 - 5 hours a day. I know, I know!! I need to get a life :eek: . Love playing my Yahoo card games though.

Cheers
 
Michael,

How many calories are you consuming a day?
Obviously not enough since you are not gaining much.
Bump it up a couple thousand and watch yourself grow.
Don't try to stay lean and expect to grow, unless you have freakish genetics, which you obviously don't.
Take extra protein shakes between meals.
Do the heavy compound movements and you will grow.

TFB,

What do you reccommend for legs if you advise against squats?


Adrian
 
Red, Bill Philips advice is generally ok re workouts. The cardio interval training thing is a good goal, but hard and dangerous if previously sedentary. From memory, his diet advice is too heavy on the protein, and he recommends a few traditional exercises that knock the joints of most mortals around too much. As a physio, doing nothing else all day but seeing the limits of joint structure, I am very aware of the anatomical variation in joints, and the movements that put aging joints at greatest risk. GUys in the bodybuilding world sometimes forget that they are a very heavily naturally selected group, who have joints that are more amenable to flogging, while some of them just haven't got old enough yet to experience the downside of their workout philosophy.

Re the CSIRO diet, I agree with Rosemary Stanton on most things. She is one of the most educated and balanced food authorities in the world IMHO. She says the CSIRO diet recommends too much protein overall, and only flesh protein, with no recommendation for vegetable protein from legumes. This is why she thought CSIRO were bias towards the meat and livestock industry.

BF, glad to hear you are going to take the bull by the short and curlies :)
If you are still very active, that is a good thing, but you still need to get that fat down. Re doing the Atkins in the short term, I'd advise not. I'd rather see you get onto Gary Eggers program, or get along to a dietician with a good reputation. Seriously BF, it'll blow you away if you get your body back into good condition. I know what you mean about not having energy when eating rabbit food. You might need to wean yourself off high levels of protein and fat. The sense of feeling full/satiated is very much helped by keeping your water intake right up, esp a couple of glasses before meals, and ensuring half your plate is fibrous carbs (salad or steamed vege matter excl. starchy carbs like potato, rice, pasta, bread).

The sense of strength you feel with your current diet might be propped up by the high animal fat content (esp in your meats). Animal fats store artificial growth hormones and steroids of the animal, and when ingested by humans, give you an adrenalin kick. However, they are bad for your circulatory system and adrenal glands over time, especially your blood pressure, which is what your doctor is concerned about.

If you start doing regular cardio in addition to your strength work, you'll kick your own adrenal glands and testicles back into top gear, rather then relying on the artificial stimulus of animal fat and flesh. The cardio will also even out your hunger pangs. WHen I hear guys say they are big eaters, it generally means they are underactive. THe more active you are, the more stable your blood sugar. Big eating is often just covering up that your body can't access its fat stores adequately, and needs to pull energy straight from blood glucose which is available after meals.

The sense of weakness you feel is also probably due to blood sugar swings. This becomes more a problem when you are carrying a big belly. That belly is composed of intra-abdominal fat, which produces hormones that lower your insulin sensitivity, and this will have your blood sugar swinging more violently. If you get your belly off, you'll start to feel everything evening out re satiation and hunger pangs.

Re ProfessorTrim or seeing a dietician, they should definitely provide you with enough Calories to get you healthy, stronger, and give greater endurance. Recognise that your sense of weakness on a healthy diet is due to your hormone system being right out of whack, and exercise and time on the diet will gradually get you back to normal.
 
Bruce,

Already given you kudos for that post but thought I better post a huge thanks here too! AWESOME!!

Got a couple of comments about some specific stuff you mentioned:

TFB said:
I don't recommend:
- full dips (they wring out and rip the anterior shoulder capsule) do half to 2/3 instead.
- lat pull downs with a pronated grip (they internally rotate the shoulder joint and impinge the rotator cuff towards the end of pull down) better to do with a palms facing grip or supinated grip.
- full bench press (they stretch and weaken the anterior joint capsule, leave one susceptible to anterior joint dislocation. and yes I have seen this even in the most successful of body builders) best to keep bar about 5-8 cms off your chest)
- I don't recommend squats, dead lifts, military presses, or bent over rows. (I have just seen too many disc prolapses, and stuffed knee menisci when doing heavy resistance).
Great advice here. I don't do full dips at the moment as it hyperextends. I'll swap my grip on the lat pulldowns, this makes sense when I think about the shoulder movement involved. I don't do full bench press and stop about 5-10cm off the chest already for the same hyperextension reason. Squats... tell me about it. You'll note in my original post no reference to a legs split anymore. I damaged the ligament on the outside of my right knee doing heavy squats so have stopped working legs with heavy weights since. I'd like to be able to play soccer with mu kid when he's old enough! ;)

TFB said:
Cut your cardio back to 3-4 x 20 mins. Best to do stationery bike 7mins, elliptical trainer 7 mins, concept II rower 5 mins.
Oh yeah, and I don't do cardio... :eek: But I do walk my dog for 20-30 minutes at a brisk pace twice a day, does that count? :D

TFB said:
- do creatine.
Seriously? My wife took creatine for months whilst preparing for officer selection in the special forces. (Don't tell her I told you about that ;) ). It made for a lot of water retention and a real "puffed up" look. But she said it worked wonders for her actual performance and growth. Don't think she'd "let me" take it though...

TFB said:
- the most important thing for muscle hypertrophy is ensuring anabolism outweighs catabolism. This means get to sleep early, no later than 9.30 pm, and get 8 hours of good quality sleep. You may need 9 hours when pushing yourself like this, and a nap after workouts or on the weekend.
I get this completely. I already try and get 9hrs sleep a night but Kay tells me I sleep too much. I sleep like the dead and feel really heavy in the mornings still. But it is helping a lot. What isn't helping is having a 6 month old son who has a really bad flu and is up all night crying and needing to be passified. That means Dad is up all night too... Hopefully things will return to normal soon though. Good to know that sleep is an important ingredient in the mix!

TFB said:
- keep up the 6 meals a day, and do the protein drink above, with a protein and carb meal within 20 mins of finishing your resistance workout.
This is going to be the hard bit I think. I graze at work now on meusli bars and low fat yoghurts and fresh fruit and nuts, but my "3 meals" are still heavy. Kay and I are both big vegie eaters so we regularly have steamed vegies and lots of fruit. I also only eat the high fibre breads and never eat white bread. I start my weekends with a fibrous cerial with skim milk but my "need for sleep" means I skip these week days due to lack of time. Might try and squeeze them in.

TFB said:
- make your own protein powder drink (mix a glass of warm water with 4tblspns of skim milk powder, 2tblspns brewer's yeast, 1tblspn lecithin, 1 tspn dolomite,) and have every morning.
Is this to save some money or to get a better product? I've never heard of lecithin and dolomite but I suppose I can get these at any vitamin supplier or pharmacy? If they're all dry ingredients then there should be no reason I can't make up a big batch of the mix and then just use 7-8 tblspns of it with a glass of warm water when required right?

Many thanks mate, this is precisely the sort of advice I was looking for and clearly an area of expertise that you are a specialist in. Invaluable information, thanks again...

Michael.
 
alwayscurious said:
http://www.mydr.com.au/tools/bodymass.asp

I used this calculator.

I figured at 170 cms and 70 - 72 kg
My BMI is 25.

Sheesh! It says I am nearing overweight. ? How can that be?

All my shirts are size small, and fit me OK.

AC I think the BMI is a great guide. However, I think How can that be?? like you. I am on the cusp too (24 to 25 bmi for me). I remind myself the BMI takes into account all cultures and builds. There is a difference between a 5ft 2 European girl (me) and a 5ft 2 Thai girl (not me). Completely different frame.

Forumites saying they were doing lots of physical work or in the army but had bmi just above what was considered healthy seems to confirm this. I am a bit worried that I am right on 24 or 25 bmi (should have a bit of a buffer as I get older) but there should be a bit of leeway too.
 
Last edited:
Sultan of Swing said:
Hahaha, that it would BG. At the moment it sounds like we could do a Laurel and Hardy impersonation. (No offence meant;) )
HAAA!, great minds think alike :cool: ,

That was going be my original post, then decided to give OO a li'l fantasy :p

BF:D
 
:D
thefirstbruce said:
BF, glad to hear you are going to take the bull by the short and curlies :)
If you are still very active, that is a good thing, but you still need to get that fat down. Re doing the Atkins in the short term, I'd advise not. I'd rather see you get onto Gary Eggers program, or get along to a dietician with a good reputation. Seriously BF, it'll blow you away if you get your body back into good condition. I know what you mean about not having energy when eating rabbit food. You might need to wean yourself off high levels of protein and fat. The sense of feeling full/satiated is very much helped by keeping your water intake right up, esp a couple of glasses before meals, and ensuring half your plate is fibrous carbs (salad or steamed vege matter excl. starchy carbs like potato, rice, pasta, bread).

The sense of strength you feel with your current diet might be propped up by the high animal fat content (esp in your meats). Animal fats store artificial growth hormones and steroids of the animal, and when ingested by humans, give you an adrenalin kick. However, they are bad for your circulatory system and adrenal glands over time, especially your blood pressure, which is what your doctor is concerned about.

If you start doing regular cardio in addition to your strength work, you'll kick your own adrenal glands and testicles back into top gear, rather then relying on the artificial stimulus of animal fat and flesh. The cardio will also even out your hunger pangs. WHen I hear guys say they are big eaters, it generally means they are underactive. THe more active you are, the more stable your blood sugar. Big eating is often just covering up that your body can't access its fat stores adequately, and needs to pull energy straight from blood glucose which is available after meals.

The sense of weakness you feel is also probably due to blood sugar swings. This becomes more a problem when you are carrying a big belly. That belly is composed of intra-abdominal fat, which produces hormones that lower your insulin sensitivity, and this will have your blood sugar swinging more violently. If you get your belly off, you'll start to feel everything evening out re satiation and hunger pangs.

Re ProfessorTrim or seeing a dietician, they should definitely provide you with enough Calories to get you healthy, stronger, and give greater endurance. Recognise that your sense of weakness on a healthy diet is due to your hormone system being right out of whack, and exercise and time on the diet will gradually get you back to normal.
TFB,

Thankyou for your insight, it is truly appreciated and I will be heeding your advice, especially the water thing, I know I've been a bit slack on that as the missus keeps telling me :eek:

One thing though, no matter how desperate I become to lose weight, there ain't know way I'll be kickin me own figs or any gland for that matter ;) :D

Thankyou again,

BF
 
Can I ask related questions?

My fancypants scales have a body fat measuring system. I think a small current is passed through your feet and with some fancy computing a body fat number is given as a %.

Yesterday I was 13.9% fat and todayI am 14.2% fat. Seems that my evening feed made me fatter overnight. Was probably that beer I allowed myself :(

Is this measurement accurate?

What range should I be striving to achieve?

Is reducing this a better goal than just shedding kilo's?

Cheers,
 
Simon I think you'll also find that 'salt' intake will affect those types of scales..

I believe with all scales you need to weigh/check yourself at the same time each day

REDWING
 
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