Why it really is 'different here'

http://www.prosolution.com.au/news/anz-property-report.pdf

The October ANZ Property Outlook was released yesterday. It focuses on why Australia is different to the USA. Here are some of the key points...

1. Australia does not have a physical excess supply of housing. America does, because unlike us, it actually built more new dwellings than it required to meet growth in underlying demand. In Australia, the reverse has happened: we haven’t built enough dwellings to meet underlying demand, which has been pushed up by rising levels of immigration.

ANZUnderlyingDemandOct08.jpg


2. The IMF specifically acknowledges that there is no evidence of a significant overvaluation of Australian house prices.

3. Australia does not have a huge supply of existing dwellings for sale at any price hanging over the market because of the huge increase in foreclosures that has been the primary source of downward pressure on American house prices.

4. There has been far less imprudent lending here than in America. "Non-conforming" loans (the closest thing we have to sub-prime) represent around 1% of all mortgages outstanding in Australia, as against around 15% in the US; while “low-doc” and “no-doc” loans account for around another 7% in Australia compared with about 15-20% of American mortgages being "Alt-A" which is their equivalent of “low-doc” or “no-doc”.

5. The RBA was one of the very few central banks which did not make the mistake (which the US Federal Reserve under Alan Greenspan in particular did make) of keeping interest rates too low for too long in the first half of the current decade. That's why proportionately far fewer Australians than Americans were enticed into taking out mortgages that they couldn't hope to be able to service when interest rates returned to more "normal" levels.

6. Mortgage lending in America is typically "non-recourse": that is, in the event of default, the lender can take possession of, and sell, the property against which the mortgage is secured, but cannot make any claims against any other assets or income which the defaulting borrower may have.

7. Default rates on Australian mortgages have remained vastly lower than on American ones - even though the interest rates which Australian borrowers have been paying have generally been somewhat higher than those paid by American (or British) homebuyers.

8. There are proportionately far fewer dwellings in foreclosure, and thus “on the market” for whatever price someone is willing to pay for them, in Australia than in the US, there has been far less downward pressure on house prices here than in the US.

Some interesting charts from the report. These charts really highlight the positive differences between the US and Australian economy and property markets, especially that our GDP growth is much stronger, our population growth is 60% higher, our vacancy rates are one fifth of the US vacancy rate, and our mortgage delinquency rates are very low in comparison.

USvsAustraliaCharts1.jpg


Cheers,

Shadow.
 
Thanks Shadow,

It just makes you wonder where Aus house prices would have been IF we had of been subject to the same credit environment that the USA had. :eek:

Cheers
 
Thanks Shadow,

It just makes you wonder where Aus house prices would have been IF we had of been subject to the same credit environment that the USA had. :eek:

Cheers

If interest rates available to consumers here were 3%, with no money down needed, how much do you think they would be?

I.e. a low paid couple - i.e. two teachers on 50k each, would probably realise they could afford 30k interest P.A. to buy that $1m place in [prestige suburb], until the interest rates went up to 6-7%, and they suddenly needed to find an extra $30 - 40k p.a.!! Then they'd be stuffed.
 
4. There has been far less imprudent lending here than in America. "Non-conforming" loans (the closest thing we have to sub-prime) represent around 1% of all mortgages outstanding in Australia, as against around 15% in the US; while “low-doc” and “no-doc” loans account for around another 7% in Australia compared with about 15-20% of American mortgages being "Alt-A" which is their equivalent of “low-doc” or “no-doc”.

Quick question Shadow which may be stupid, but I'll ask anyway;

What's a 'non-conforming loan' in Aust? I thought that was a low/no doc? But it says Aust. has 1% non-conforming and 7% low/no doc.
 
thanks for posting that report... puts graphs and figures on the situation. I burst out laughing reading the first paragraph though, wont say why but its good to see some economists still believe demand & supply still applies..


I have a repository of such reports which includes a report handed out at the Sydney presentation "state of the state" in June this year which among other things included a presentation by Robert Walker (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/3/a53/321)

This may have already been posted before but if not and someone is interested please let me know and ill email it to you.

Given the file size is greater than 1 meg i cannot post it here...

***** FOR THE OPS ***** can the min file size for PDF be increased as 100kb is not sufficient, and given this is a business oriented forum i would have thought a more lax size for PDF is more appropriate than say the 14meg or so allowance for MP3s?
 
low doc doesn't mean you have bad credit it only implies it hence the tag liar loan. Non-conforming means you have a known issue and don't conform to standard lending criteria... e.g. defaults on your CRA etc.


Quick question Shadow which may be stupid, but I'll ask anyway;

What's a 'non-conforming loan' in Aust? I thought that was a low/no doc? But it says Aust. has 1% non-conforming and 7% low/no doc.
 
low doc doesn't mean you have bad credit it only implies it hence the tag liar loan. Non-conforming means you have a known issue and don't conform to standard lending criteria... e.g. defaults on your CRA etc.

I believe another difference is that non-conforming loans in Australia (like subprime loans in the USA) have the following characteristics...

1. No deposit required (i.e. loans for 100% and 105%+ of property value).
2. No proof or statement of income required.
3. No LMI (Lenders Mortgage Insurance) payable.

With normal Low-Doc and No-Doc loans, you need to contribute a reasonable deposit, and possibly pay LMI, if you are not willing or able to demonstrate income.

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
9. We have a surplus (and a labor government prepared to spend it)

10. The USA had their property crash before the share crash.

11. Many people here still remember the Keating years of unusually high interest rates.
 
low doc doesn't mean you have bad credit it only implies it hence the tag liar loan. Non-conforming means you have a known issue and don't conform to standard lending criteria... e.g. defaults on your CRA etc.

I believe another difference is that non-conforming loans in Australia (like subprime loans in the USA) have the following characteristics...

1. No deposit required (i.e. loans for 100% and 105%+ of property value).
2. No proof or statement of income required.
3. No LMI (Lenders Mortgage Insurance) payable.

With normal Low-Doc and No-Doc loans, you need to contribute a reasonable deposit, and possibly pay LMI, if you are not willing or able to demonstrate income.

Cheers,

Shadow.

Sweet thanks guys, makes sense.
 
really??????
Well, technically true. But possibly misleading in how it is written.

Here's the excerpt directly from the IMF report. There's a graph on p17 which shows Australia ~20% overvalued. The footnote states:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/pdf/c1.pdf

As noted in the 2008 IMF staff report for Australia,if some country-
specific factors, particularly the impact of long-term migration on housing demand, are taken into account, the results do not produce evidence
of a significant overvalulation of house prices

which sounds a lot like 'Australian house prices are not necessarily overvalued'. However, if you then check out the relevant section of the 2008 IMF staff report for Australia you see the following:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2008/cr08312.pdf

staff estimates suggest that house prices are only moderately overvalued (5-15 percent) and that continued strong immigration and household income growth could increase equilibrium house prices

So, whilst they might not be significantly overvalued (>15% overvalued), the IMF believe them to be moderately overvalued (5%-15% overvalued). Wasn't quite the same message I got from the ANZ article though. :rolleyes:
 
So, whilst they might not be significantly overvalued (>15% overvalued), the IMF believe them to be moderately overvalued (5%-15% overvalued). Wasn't quite the same message I got from the ANZ article though. :rolleyes:

Gee I guess a year of no house price rises and 7.5% inflation would mean they are back to fair value then?
 
which sounds a lot like 'Australian house prices are not necessarily overvalued'.

Nor are those in the USA by the looks of things:
The countries that have experienced the largest unexplained increases in house prices over the past decade are Australia, Ireland, and the United Kingdom; house prices in these countries were 20 percent to 30 percent higher in 2007 than can be attributed to fundamentals.
A group of other countries—including France, Italy, the Netherlands, and Spain —have house price gaps of between 10 percent and 20 percent.
The gap estimate for the United States - about 7 percent—is smaller than for most other countries and has been narrowing compared with earlier estimates, partly reflecting the decline in U.S. house prices over the past 18 months. The U.S. house price gap was estimated at about 12 percent in 2007
(Box 3.1 in April 2008 World Economic Outlook) and about 20 percent in 2006.

So it's cold comfort that Australian prices might only be 15% too high (I think that's hopelessly optimistic) if some of the most wealthy and populous parts of the USA have seen price declines of 40% and more in order that their overvaluation contract from 20% too high to 7% too high....
 
Shadow, good luck trying to get that point across. Most people (mostly the Keen support group) are transfixed with the simplistic position of "if it happened there it could happen here".

I tried to argue that such factors as supply are clearly different between the countries in question, but we go round in circles.... given the ultimately the comeback is... "demand and supply" no longer applies "this time".

Keen should concentrate on arguing his theory rather than taking his theory, treating it as fact and then being so self indulgent as to then predict the future based on it.

Its very hard to debate an issue when the theory its based on is unproven and when the VAST majority of world economists don't support it in full or in part.

and why compare us to America and UK? why not use Zimbabwe as an example? Or Latin America? Or China? or Russia another resource exporter? why? because the US and UK looks like us and thats all...

I think you've missed the point of this thread. Australia is not the USA.

Or Japan. Or UK. Or Ireland. Or etc...

We invest in Australian property.
 
Thanks for the links Gremlin. I tracked down the Klyuev (2008) econopaper which will be very informative on the model construction. Did you see this most interesting chart at one of your links?
image002_512_09.png


They had a real price decline of 4% for H1 2008. Interesting?
 
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