I think about this each time I do it: I've just been sent a Transfer of Land form for my new IP in Ballarat, to be signed by me in the presence of a witness who also has to sign. But, unlike other legal documents, the witness doesn't have to enter their name or address, so if the validity of my signature was in doubt there is no way for the witness to be traced. All seems rather pointless.
Witnessing documents - pointless?
- Thread starter Tony3008
- Start date
Agreed.
Even the NSW contract of sale has the same - but they have now dropped the requirement to witness even though the place for witness to sign is still there.
HOWEVER, New Rules for Witnessing Land Dealings in NSW
Section 117 of the Real Property Act 1900 has been amended to strengthen the requirements for persons witnessing the signing of a land dealing or caveat, to identify the person whose signature they are witnessing.
The new provisions require a witness to have either:
• known the person signing the dealing or caveat for over 12 months, or
• taken reasonable steps to ensure the identity of that person.
The witness will be considered to have taken reasonable steps to ensure the identity of the person if the witness has taken the steps set out in the new regulation 16A of the Real Property Regulation 2008.
Broadly, Regulation 16A requires the witness to sight either an original primary photographic identification document (such as a driver’s licence or passport) or two non-photographic identification documents (such as a birth certificate and a pension card) that confirm the identity of the person signing the land dealing.
Failure to comply with the new provisions may result in a fine of up to $2,200.
Refer to the Real Property Amendment Regulation 2011 for more details:
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/sessionalview/sessional/sr/2011-282.pdf
Does it have to be human? I always get the cat or dog to sign it, but never thought of checking up..... (only kidding people!!)
The Y-man
Sounds pretty pointless doesn't it.
Terry as lawyers are we allowed to charge for certifying documents or witnessing affidavits? I heard from someone that Justices of the Peace can't charge for it.
We had the farcical situation of this about 2 years ago. Ended up being a huge lawyer circle jerk.
Mortgage document to be signed. Due to previous litigation, where some old Italian mama pleaded to some limp wristed left wing magistrate she didn't know what she was signing, the Bank got stiffed.
Bank lawyers now insist that the mortgage and company charge documents are witnessed by a lawyer, so the poor Buyer schmuck can't plead that they didn't know what they were signing.
Call up our lawyers. Oh no. Far too risky. We'd have to assume all that liability. Not worth it. Call around to 4 other firms. Oh no. Waaay too risky.
As usual, Banks have delayed and delayed the paperwork, such that this is the day prior to settlement....conveniently leaving no room or time for any negotiation whatsoever - mental note to thyself - OK, I'm learning for the future.
Call back original lawyer firm. They've taken advice from their Professional Insurance lawyers that this is not good. However, to get us out of a bind, they might be willing to send their junior most lawyer to do the job, but it would have to be at triple the partner rate - $ 1,100 per hour....to account for the huge risk they would be placing themselves under.
Barrel - me - strapped over - lawyer with time clock and large implement in hand - no KY jelly available - not a good look.
Decision time....throw away 4 months worth of DD, a rather large contracted deal, 2 months of negotiation with both the Vendor and the Bank and an entire family waiting to close the deal.....OR....agreed to absolutely outrageous terms to get the job done.
- Bank couldn't care less if the deal doesn't go thru or not.
- Bank lawyers couldn't care less if the deal doesn't go thru or not.
- My lawyers couldn't care less if the deal doesn't go thru or not.
- My lawyers PI lawyers couldn't care less if the deal doesn't go thru or not.
- All the other lawyers I contacted couldn't care less if the deal doesn't go thru or not.
As usual, the only one with significant moolah on the line cops it sweet to get the deal done.
I don't like being put in a position where one party's "insistence" on something doesn't correlate with them having to pay for it. It's easy to palm it off to the schmuck.
I learn from the Banking masters of negotiation on every deal. Still lots to learn before I am a complete and utter bar steward.
Justices of the Peace offer their services free and cannot charge any fee.
Our most recent set of document includes a "Statement of Witness" (or similar) where the witness actually includes all their details, their profession, and signs to say that they sighted ID, and what ID it was.
What I find amusing is the list of people who are "qualified" to be a witness: teacher, nurse, bank officer, fireman, police officer, accountant.
Wonder why REA or car salesmen aren't on the list?
Seriously, though, people at work, who've known me for years can't witness, but a random stranger (eg, JP) can! That's stoopid, IMO.
What I find amusing is the list of people who are "qualified" to be a witness: teacher, nurse, bank officer, fireman, police officer, accountant.
Wonder why REA or car salesmen aren't on the list?
Seriously, though, people at work, who've known me for years can't witness, but a random stranger (eg, JP) can! That's stoopid, IMO.
someone who's known you for years is more likely to do something dodgy to help out a mate than a random JP.
Aaron, are you a lawyer?
I beleive lawyers can charge, but I have never.
My local post office charges about $10 for a justice of the peace witnessing service.
Yes, an Australian Lawyer under the Legal Profession Act. Just wanted to know because I keep getting conflicting views. I do know my local pharmacy charges $5 to certify documents.
No just admitted in the Supreme Court. Practising isn't for me.
In that case you are not a legal practitioner and probably would not be able to witness documents as a lawyer. Although you were admitted as a lawyer I don't think you can even call yourself a lawyer or solicitor without being a legal practitioner. Have you looked into this?
In Victoria I don't have to be a legal practitioner, just an Australian Lawyer - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/epa1958361/s107a.html
Yes, it appears you are! Why not just work under someone and get your practicing certificate? Then even if you don't practice you can still do work related to your loan business - powers of attorney, wills, trusts etc.
Similar threads
