Climate Change, Agriculture, and other stuff.

Howdy.

Sorry to keep ranting on about agriculture. Anyone can ignore my rantings if they like. Not much point in talking about a subject I know nothing about.


Wow, this climate change debate has taken off hasn't it. I've just recently watched All Gores 'An inconvenient truth'. Yep, very interesting, and it seems like the debate is almost over. That is, there is nothing much left to debate. Climate change is happening, and it is probably man made. Google 'climate Change' and the whole world is talking about it today.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National...s-for-Australia/2007/02/03/1169919565262.html

Whether the dire predictions are going to happen, or if there is some exageration going on, I haven't made my mind up, however I must say that even a few months ago I would have considered a low level water front property as an investment, however, today I think I would play it safe and give it a miss. Plenty of other investment opportunities out there without gearing into something that could end up worthless.


Now, Agriculture.

I've always tried to keep a contrarian thinking as many would know on here. I'm betting that the average person is thinking that a farm right now would be the worst thing someone could own. I'm not so sure about that.

I will go out on a limb here and say that agriculture will be the new boom industry. It is definately getting more difficult with bigger storms and more extreme weather events. This is making agricultural production harder. This is only going to be good for farmers in general. Food in recent times has been at ridiculously low levels. Just 18 months ago grain prices were at below cost of production, especially after the run up in oil and other energy prices. This was obvious by the ethanol craze that has happened. It shouldn't be possible to make ethanol out of grain at a huge profit due to the huge amount of energy it takes to produce grain. But it was. Grain has since doubled. In the next few years the US will be converting almost half of it's corn crop into ethanol. Grain that in the past has been exported to feed developing nations. Oh dear. I wouldn't want to be starving in Africa. But the US gets to buy less oil off the Middle East. It is the US's grain, they can do what ever they like with it.

Why do dairy farmers only get 30c per litre for milk? It's because they can get screwed down to that level. Dairy producers are highly subsidised in the rest of the developed world, besides Australia and New Zealand. There is over production. But now the poor Aussie dairy farmer has been hit with twice the feed costs. Current milk prices are not sustainable. Dairy farmers are planning a 'tip out' day. Where they tip out a days production on to the ground to alert people of their plight.

Egg producers get a few cents per egg. Their feed costs have doubled. Eggs will simply stop being produced until it is economic again. Thus egg prices will rise.


It takes a thousand tonnes of water to grow a tonne of grain, wheat or corn. Even more for rice. The three big food staples, and the building block of the food chain. It takes a thousand tonnes of water to produce a couple of hundred kilos of meat. Australia in a normal year has about the biggest food excess of any nation. We export two thirds of what we produce. This means we are the biggest exporter of water overseas.

Now this is only possible because, believe it or not, if you work out our land area, times it by the rainfall, and divide it by the population, we would be the wettest continent per person. This has to be the case otherwise we couldn't export so much water as food.


Aquifers are going dry everywhere due mainly to overuse, but also more efficent and more productive agriculture. The more productive plant growth means less runoff. The food produced from irrigation will soon be in decline. Add to that global warming which means less water seeps into the ground.

The oceans food catch is getting smaller due to overfishing. This will place more demand on the grain fields of the grain producing exporters like the US, Canada and Australia, to fill in the gaps, plus aquaculture will take off. Aquaculture needs grain as a feed source.

Heatwaves are getting more common. A couple of stinking hot weeks will slash grain production, and it has done in the last decade, hence the worlds falling grain supplies.


Agricultural land around me continues to rise in value. I think plenty of people, a lot of it the smart money can see what is coming. I don't want agricultural land prices to rise, as it makes it harder for me to expand. A lot of the land is being bought by outside interests, thus I may get to farm some of it without owning it, which is what I am already doing.

A doubling in a price of a commodity, means that a producers profit can go through the roof. Look at what has happened with mining companies. Farms will be the same as long as the production doesn't drop too much.

I have no doubt the current dry conditions are just a normal drought. If I'm wrong, and Australia has been plunged into a permanent drought, then, yes, Aussie farmers are stuffed. Our climate may get slightly hotter and drier, but this is a drought right now. There is a lot of money betting it's just a drought that will soon end. Interestingly, on the movie 'An inconvenient truth' there is a map of Australia showing it mostly getting wetter over the long term, and this is a fact over a century. Most of Africa was getting drier. Once again, glad I'm here and not there.

The green revolution has seen 50 years of agricultural oversupply. Farm subsidies were introduced to most western nations to keep farmers farming. In Australia we just simply had to get bigger and more efficient and make do without subsidies. I think the oversupply of food could be coming to an end. If oversupply turns to undersupply, the ramificatios for prices are huge. Farm subsidies will get dropped in Western countries which will be a boon for Aussie and Kiwi producers.

Coversely, the high grain prices will see farmers everywhere planting wall to wall grain. It will be interesting to see if the supply can be ramped up enough. Similtaineous bumper crops around the world will see prices plumit.

Lets see what happens next.

As per usual, this could all be rubbish. Make up your own mind.

See ya's.


Some sobering reading.
http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/zarticles/080902_water_shortages.htm
http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update22.htm
 
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i have no idea about how agriculture works (and even less about economics and markets and stuff) but my super-basic thoughts on the matter are: people will always have to eat. if food gets harder to grow and supply gets shorter, prices go up, but people will pay the higher price cos they still have to eat. but i wonder whether, if food gets harder to grow, production costs will increase so much that farmers won't see much more cash out of it, or if arable land will decrease so much that even if costs of production don't rise that much, farmers will have less land to cultivate, so won't be able to take advantage of soaring food prices?

as an aside, i was wondering the other day how much it would cost to fly a plane over a few paddocks and sprinkle some of those water-bead-thingies (like you put into pot plants and domestic gardens to make the water stay in the soil longer after it rains). i mean, if it cost a few million, but meant that you only had to rely on rain once or twice a season, would that be worth it? and why doesn't the government roll out free big rain water tanks to farmers, so you would at least have enough water in droughts to water your poor dying animals and keep one or two paddocks full of stuff? surely it couldn't cost that much? they're just big plastic buckets...
 
but i wonder whether, if food gets harder to grow, production costs will increase so much that farmers won't see much more cash out of it, or if arable land will decrease so much that even if costs of production don't rise that much, farmers will have less land to cultivate, so won't be able to take advantage of soaring food prices?
...

One of the reasons I'm such an optimist about farming is that I know I'm farming as efficiently as anyother farmer in the world, and way more efficient that 95%. This is because we have had to make do without subsidies in Australia. All my competitors have the same increasing costs as do I.

Farmers will always be able to make a profit in general. Droughts will come along, prices will plumit for short periods, but the key sentence you have used is 'People have to eat'. If costs accelerate, farm commodities will eventually catch up.

This situation happened just 18 months ago when oil prices took off but grain prices didn't. For a season is was uneconomic to grow grain, but prices have now doubled, and if rainfall returns, grain growing now can be very profitable.

Cheers.
 
why doesn't the government roll out free big rain water tanks to farmers, so you would at least have enough water in droughts to water your poor dying animals and keep one or two paddocks full of stuff? surely it couldn't cost that much? they're just big plastic buckets...

Rain water is great for my domestic use. I have hundreds of thousands of litres of the stuff. Showering in rainwater is heaven, so is drinking it, and it's the one thing I miss most when I'm away.

Rain water would never work for stock water though. It is impossible. Cattle drink enormous amounts. A thousand square meter shed [which is huge] would catch 500 000 litres of water a year in a half meter per year rainfall area. This would be enough for a cattle herd for a few days in summer. What about the other 363 days?

Farms in Australia without underground water use dams. This is like a shed and tank, however the catchment is a thousand times bigger, and the dam would be too. The land takes the place of the shed, the dam the tank.

I'm lucky to have great underground water. I don't need or rely on dams thankfully.

Cheers.
 
so just say i don't know anything about farming but i want to increase my exposure to it: are there agricultural funds? or could i buy a share in a farm? or even buy the whole farm and pay someone to manage it? how much does a small time farm-manager cost? and what about the wetting agents? does that sound like a crazy plan? :) i think you should try it! seeing as you're a new-wave and a contrarian and all that! then, if it works, give me free food for life!
 
so just say i don't know anything about farming but i want to increase my exposure to it: are there agricultural funds? or could i buy a share in a farm? or even buy the whole farm and pay someone to manage it? how much does a small time farm-manager cost? and what about the wetting agents? does that sound like a crazy plan? :) i think you should try it! seeing as you're a new-wave and a contrarian and all that! then, if it works, give me free food for life!

It's something I have no concern about since 80% of my assets are invested in the sector anyway.

This is something I posted on the 'What is a drought' thread. http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28556
It's a sort of a managed fund that invests in rural land. Maybe it's closed? I've got no idea, and this is definately not a recommendation.
http://www.macquarie.com.au/au/prope...nformation.pdf


I wouldn't recommend getting into futures. You will be competing with farmers and traders in the industry. I think a ley person would get fleeced. I also don't think grain prices will get much higher. Profits now should be great, and farmers everywhere will be planting big.

You could buy a farm and get someone to manage it. Farm workers are getting scarse though. They have all headed to the mines. I have about 5 mates who are new coal mine workers. They all hate the job too by the way. Just love the money. As a result, to get a farm manager, the wages have risen heaps too. A manager of a 5 million plus property may demand 100 grand now. Supply and demand. Obviously less for smaller places.


Your wetting agent idea? Yep, I think it's crazy.

Cheers.
 
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so just say i don't know anything about farming but i want to increase my exposure to it: are there agricultural funds? or could i buy a share in a farm? or even buy the whole farm and pay someone to manage it? how much does a small time farm-manager cost? and what about the wetting agents? does that sound like a crazy plan? :) i think you should try it! seeing as you're a new-wave and a contrarian and all that! then, if it works, give me free food for life!

There are various agribusiness ventures out there that you can sink some money into, but many are dodgy - so you need to tread very carefully. Common are - trees (plantation pine, eucalypts), nuts, fruits, viticulture, ostriches, emus, etc etc etc.

There are also listed agribusiness and related companies on the ASX - let's see, why does the AWB come to my mind straight away... :p

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
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so just say i don't know anything about farming but i want to increase my exposure to it: are there agricultural funds?
If you've got $200K Macbank will invest it for you - Macquarie Bank eyeing $1b worth of farms. It looks like the one TC was referring to.

SMH said:
Macquarie Bank Ltd is eyeing $1 billion worth of Australian farms for a new wholesale fund, which it will consider listing on the Australian Stock Exchange in five to eight years.

Macquarie Pastoral will buy sheep and cattle farms, outright, in the summer dominant rainfall zone in northern Australia and the winter dominant rainfall zone in the nation's south.
 
Agricultural land around me continues to rise in value. I think plenty of people, a lot of it the smart money can see what is coming. I don't want agricultural land prices to rise, as it makes it harder for me to expand.
A doubling in a price of a commodity, means that a producers profit can go through the roof. Look at what has happened with mining companies. Farms will be the same as long as the production doesn't drop too much.

An article I found about agricultural land values.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/19/bloomberg/bxland.php?page=1

See ya's.
 
Lets not jump the gun on climate change. It's flavour of the month...or decade I guess.

In the 80's CFC's where band because they were creating the greenhouse effect. Now we have found out that this is BS and bans on CFC's are being lifted.

Globabl Warming is a NATURALLY occuring event. It is created by the level of CO2 in the atmosphere.

CO2 can be generated from many sources including man-made and natural. A report by the United Nations listed farming as the most significant contributor to Global Warming than any other industry. Funny considering we are all focused on coal plants.

If we where to remove all CO2 from our atmosphere we would die. CO2 is required by plants for photosynthesis. Without CO2 most plants would die, followed by us as not enough oxygen would be produced.

The concern is that the level of C02 has increased significantly over the last 100 years more rapidly than before. Although this is hard to prove as our records only go back a couple of hundred years, and using ice core samples for thousands of years ago can not give you a reading over 100 years of that period.

So, for 2005 the CO2 level was 375ppm compared to around 280ppm before the industrial age. However, based on ice core samples we can confirm around 25,000 years ago CO2 was around 370ppm. I'm pretty sure the motor car and coal plants were not invented then.
 
Always enjoy your novels TC;). Interesting read.

Had to go and look up the water requirement for stock then thought might as well post it for everybodies benefit.



Table 2. Water requirements according to the type of stock and the type of grazing
Stock type
Consumption per head per day (L) Sheep Weaners 2–4 Adult dry sheep —grassland 2–6 —saltbush 4–12 Ewes with lambs 4–10 Cattle Lactating cows —grassland 40–100 —saltbush 70–140 Young stock 25–50 Dry stock (400 kg) 35–80 Horses 40–50

A very interesting concept of water per head of pop and that we effectively export water:)

Cheers
 
Related to this thread is this article from the Food and Agriculture Organization.
http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm

It's main point is that livestock production contributes 18% to greenhouse gases, which is more than transport.

It also makes contributions to global warming via land degradation, and is a major source of air and water pollution.

Peter Singer wrote that changing your car from a standard saloon to a hybrid would save 1 tonne of carbon emissions, compared to 1.5 tonnes by changing to a primarily vegan diet.

Seems 6.5 billion of us will have to eat less meat on average if one believes in global warming.
 
Interesting article.

I'm not going to become a vegan to reduce global warming. I don't know anyone else who would. Maybe there are people out there who would, but I don't know those sort of people.

Blaming agriculture for global warming is like blaming breathing for causing cancer. If we didn't breath, then we couldn't get cancer. Therefore, breathing causes cancer.

The worlds farmers are just growing enough food to feed more people than the world ever had a cope of feeding naturally. One hundred years ago, with the population at just over a billion, and the natural fertilizer sources [a million years of bird crap] close to running out, along came artificial chemical fertilizer. Advance one hundred years and we have 6 billion people.

I also think that the environmental problems caused by agriculture are incredibly exagerated. We were told how bad farming was for the environment twenty years ago, and now, here are the worlds farmers producing double. Agriculture does cause erosion, but it is only relevant if compared with erosion in nature.



If we want to blame something for causing global warming, then there are other things out there to blame.

*****Maybe too many People would be a good place to start*****

Not in Australia either. We export most of our food. The problem is overseas.

See ya's.
 
Hi TC

Great thread , especially your initial post ....

Interesting thoughts you have about the positive future you depict for agriculture . So many of my non farming friends think that farming in general is a sunset industry and that most farmers are losers . Of course they don't come out and say as much but you can see it written all over them a mile off .......

The way I see it farming is not much different to any other business .

One thing I noted that you hadn't mentioned was the threats to the right to farm . Especially in Europe . We have neighbours here who have immigrated after selling out of their English farming interests . Much of their nearby land was taken for use as a rich mans playground . War games , moto cross bikes , hobby farms , industry etc . Not to mention problems with semi domestic dogs roaming in packs at night . Constant trespassers , litigation against them for smells and sounds that normal farms produce .

It was all too hard so they sold up for a good price and moved out to Australia . They have been here 2 years and are very happy . The problem of the drought is small in comparison to them . They have bought a sizable quality operation and I would guess they have very little debt .

I must admit . I didn't see this whole ethanol thing coming..... I long for the days when I could have quality grain delivered into my silos at the dairy for about 120 a tonne :)

At present we are using palm kernal meal inported from Malaysia at cost by our co-operative ....:(

Shawn
 
Hi TC

One thing I noted that you hadn't mentioned was the threats to the right to farm . Especially in Europe . We have neighbours here who have immigrated after selling out of their English farming interests . Much of their nearby land was taken for use as a rich mans playground . War games , moto cross bikes , hobby farms , industry etc . Not to mention problems with semi domestic dogs roaming in packs at night . Constant trespassers , litigation against them for smells and sounds that normal farms produce .

It was all too hard so they sold up for a good price and moved out to Australia . They have been here 2 years and are very happy . The problem of the drought is small in comparison to them . They have bought a sizable quality operation and I would guess they have very little debt .

Shawn

I guess I haven't seen this yet personally. I still live in a farming area. Most people in this area are farmers, or depends on farming. I suppose you live closer to the rat race than I do.

I am on the edge of the hobby/lifestyle farm craze though. They are flowing over the Great Dividing Range from the Hunter. The Hunter buyers are being bought out by Sydneysiders so they move north west. Thankfully they don't want flat black farming land. They want undulating land with a view. This land now sells for as much as my farming land, but is a third as productive. The more land that is converted to hobby farms, the less production. The more land that goes organic, the less production. It's all good if you are a productive farmer.

I do know English farmers who have moved out here though. They do love it, and they do arrive with a heap of cash. They can't believe the freedom to farm how ever they like. The fact that people can't just drive through or walk through their farms like they can in England.

See ya's.
 
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Hi TC

Great thread , especially your initial post ....

Interesting thoughts you have about the positive future you depict for agriculture . So many of my non farming friends think that farming in general is a sunset industry and that most farmers are losers

Shawn

Ha ha. Losers???

We are in control of an asset that has increased at 7% to 10% compound for half a century.
Just keep it quiet OK.

See ya's.
 
Interesting article.

I'm not going to become a vegan to reduce global warming. I don't know anyone else who would. Maybe there are people out there who would, but I don't know those sort of people.

Blaming agriculture for global warming is like blaming breathing for causing cancer. If we didn't breath, then we couldn't get cancer. Therefore, breathing causes cancer.

The worlds farmers are just growing enough food to feed more people than the world ever had a cope of feeding naturally. One hundred years ago, with the population at just over a billion, and the natural fertilizer sources [a million years of bird crap] close to running out, along came artificial chemical fertilizer. Advance one hundred years and we have 6 billion people.

Interestingly, the greatest popn growth has been in the lowest per capita meat eating countries (developing world)...

and the greatest carbon emissions come from the less populated developed world.

I think the FAO's point is that reducing average meat consumption will allow agriculture to feed more people for less impact on the planet. I don't think it is a criticism of agriculture per se.


I also think that the environmental problems caused by agriculture are incredibly exagerated. We were told how bad farming was for the environment twenty years ago, and now, here are the worlds farmers producing double. Agriculture does cause erosion, but it is only relevant if compared with erosion in nature.

If we want to blame something for causing global warming, then there are other things out there to blame.

*****Maybe too many People would be a good place to start*****

Not in Australia either. We export most of our food. The problem is overseas.

See ya's.
..............
 
Winston, your points are all valid. Excessive population growth is occuring in the regions where meat is less eaten, and the most CO2 is being produced in the developed world.

Reducing meat consumption would also reduce CO2 emisions. I just can't see it happening.

See ya's.
 
No , I don't see the vegan diet taking off .

But then again the way urban people see farming is changing . Some of the old ways are now unacceptable . Also I think there is a lot of perception that farmers are inefficient , cruel to their animals , environmental vandals .....

Farming in general has a very low appeal to city people . Especially while food is affordable and aplenty .

One thing for sure is that change is inevitable .

Off Topic , but let me tell you about a friend of mine who runs a dairyfarm on the outskirts of Auckland in NZ . He has serious trouble with dogs and has shot dozens over the years both at night and during the day . A couple of years ago the problem was so bad that he got his police mates involved and they cruised about the local suburban areas nearby at night with shotguns on the back of utes and any dog out roaming the street was shot . You would think people would get the message but , Duh !

What do we do about the problem of too many people in the world ? Do away with a few or find another planet ?

Shawn
 
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