....because this is a bl00dy property forum!
Yes, agree! Please don't tempt me with a thread on the topic! I don't have the time to respond!
Live cattle trade to Indonesia
- Thread starter Graingrower
- Start date
Yes, agree! Please don't tempt me with a thread on the topic! I don't have the time to respond!
As locko24 said.
LisaP how many made in china/india/vietnam products did you buy this month?
do you buy chinese garlic? Do you know about their agricultural practices?
It's all nice and pretty to talk about things in a heated winter's classroom, but it achieves nothing.
Throwing around moral righteousness because of what you seen on your TV that disturbed your dinner for the next 2 weeks achieves nothing either.
So tell me then.... how do you know what is happening in china/india/vietman with regards to how they are manufacturing their products? You must have been informed about these unethical practices in some way?
If you disregard ALL information that is reported in the media, well then I can only assume you must have personally visited each of these countries, and, after wandering through a number of farms and plants, witnessed firsthand the abuse for yourself?
How do you think people find out about most of the atrocities and events that are happening in the world? No, I've never been to Indonesia, nor am I likely to visit one of their abattoirs. So, tell me how else am I to learn about the extreme cruelty being inflicted on animals in these buildings? Had it not been for the media coverage, I would never have known.
I am not claiming "moral righteousness". But I do take exception to you suggesting that because I place value on animal welfare, I must be a supporter of human abuse. Your view is illogical. I do care about our species. It perplexes me that we can treat our own kind so so poorly. However, my compassion also extends to the other animals sharing this planet with us, who can also experience pain, fear, loss and terror.
So what I find "righteous", if anything, is the lack of compassion some people have for anything other than our species. As Ghandi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And I firmly believe this, and think, perhaps, that the meaning extends not only to nations, but to individual people, too.
So is the animal cruelty a reflection of a much bigger problem?
no response from mla
I did not get any response. I looked at their website today and it is just all spin doctoring. I want them to guarantee that the live export of animals will cease. If they do not understand how offended decent people are by what four corners has revealed then they are fools. Cruelty is unacceptable.
I did not get any response. I looked at their website today and it is just all spin doctoring. I want them to guarantee that the live export of animals will cease. If they do not understand how offended decent people are by what four corners has revealed then they are fools. Cruelty is unacceptable.
Hi , I have been a lurker for some time, and this topic has finally made me register on the forum. Currently have 3 IP's and PPOR all in Adelaide. So down to business....How a country as advanced and modern as Australia can trade with live animals to these backward ,third world countries is astounding . The complicity and lies shown by the government and their mouthpiece the MLA is contemptible, but not surprising ,considering these people live in a moral and ethical vacum . Funny how all animal welfare concerns go out the window when you pander to religion and money.
Senator Ludwig is the poor excuse for a man who presides over this misery , here is his office number 02 6277 7520, but do not expect him to answer the phone. He is far too busy to talk to the great unwashed who he represents and pay his very generous salary.
Make sure you phone your local MP with your views, it pays to remind them who pays their wages.
Senator Ludwig is the poor excuse for a man who presides over this misery , here is his office number 02 6277 7520, but do not expect him to answer the phone. He is far too busy to talk to the great unwashed who he represents and pay his very generous salary.
Make sure you phone your local MP with your views, it pays to remind them who pays their wages.
Interesting article here: http://afr.com/p/national/cattle_baron_lays_down_export_law_JjaI5TFbVUyFJbLm3AwUnJ
But Lisa, you already knew.... remember this little chestnut below???
Repechage with a little consistency would be a nice touch
I can answer your question about HOW DO YOU KNOW, if you haven't been there or it is not in the media..... As an educator, I would expect you to know as well, so surely you are joking?
There are more than 2 information sources on this planet beyond your own eyes and the media....
Many people on here are quite informed on a broad range of topics and well versed in numerous industries regardless of what is or isn't said in the media.
BTW, I do care about animal welfare but in the context of everything else going on in the world, there are by far more important issues to boil the blood... but they aren't on your TV, so you will never really know unless you really care to find out
It really shows you the power the media have to stir things up doesn't it ? They love to find the biggest basket case and milk it for all it's worth .
I don't agree that the live trade with Indo should be stopped . No question though , there is a lot of work to be done .
I also don't agree with processing all that beef in Australia to create more jobs . The fact is wages are just too high to make it viable here .
I don't agree that the live trade with Indo should be stopped . No question though , there is a lot of work to be done .
I also don't agree with processing all that beef in Australia to create more jobs . The fact is wages are just too high to make it viable here .
G'day Percy,
I reckon that's waaaay too close to a rational business perspective to warrant a response. You've obviously in that moral and ethical vacuum adelaide girl spoke of.
Viability - hmmm....no there's a tangent one could go down to fix the abuse...
1. Ask the farmer to take a pay-cut....he'll just take a gun and shoot all the cattle stone dead if it goes too low.
2. Ask the truck driver to take a pay cut.....can't...union involved.
3. Ask the fuel companies to charge less....dream on.
4. Ask the trye companies to charge less....dream on.
5. Ask the handlers at the wharf to take a pay cut....can't....union involved.
6. Ask the Govt inspectors to take a pay cut....can't muscle the Govt.
7. Ask the bulk shippers to take a pay-cut....vessels worth squillions need to pay the Bank bank.
So that's the supply side.
On the demand side, the consumers have bugger all money and wish to pay the absolute minimum.
So, where exactly and who exactly is willing to give up something to make this a viable solution. The answer of course at this stage, no-one is.
The current calling by those financially removed from the industry is obviously just to say 'stop it'. Sounds great if your livelihood isn't dependent on it.
For those who are dependent on it - I'd suggest employing a few marketers to drum up some new demand, otherwise that supply side might have to take a haircut, and I reckon the softest target amongst that lot is the first on the list.
But there is a win win solution Dazz.
Did you see the 4 Corners program? There were a lot of blokes involved trying to kill these poor cattle. Blokes pulling them with ropes, kicking them, gouging their eyes, spraying them with water. The cattle were terrified, as they had seen their mates in front of them butchered, so they were fighting for their life. The blokes were paid to slit the throats of the cattle while they were facing Mecca, and while the animals were still alive.
It's barbaric. There is no reason why the animals can't be first stunned, while in an enclosed holding cell where the other cattle can't see whats happening. They are still alive, could be strung up, and then the job can be done, but probably needing less man power, thus more profits and as a bonus the meat would be much better, rather than coming from a highly stressed animal.
This is what would happen in a civilised world, by civilized people. It's about time these people came out of the stone age.
See ya's.
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hi all
I have read with interest this post and no I did not see the 4 corners show
you seem to have missed some thing and it seems that alot of nation wish to put their views on another nation
this is aust cattle but it not in aust
they are in a country not controlled in any way by aust people
is in cruel maybe but so is extracting bile from bears in china
they cut out the bears balls while its copulating to get the max
or what about rhino horn in africa
what the problem here is not that this happens it that you see it on tv
yes it happens the difference with the others is its not on prime time tv
or on 4 corners
you have cattle having their throuts cut but yet female mutilation does not get any viewing
you wish to solve this problem (and it not a big problem on the list of problems in this rock we live in)to solve it is simple
setup slaughter houses in that country owned and managed by the mla
they charge a fee so run them
you all seem to me be saying
I can sell you my commadore
then friday night I am doing burn outs or wheelies down the center of sydney on 4 corners hitting bins what ever and now I want to control the driver of the car
no you sold me the car.
the same here
you sold the animal it belongs to the buyer
you wanted to look after the animal thats fine
don't sell it
stop the live exports
well stop the export of oil as we have no idea where or what its used for
and as for finance stop that as well.
you where looking at a show of what happens not to aust cattle
but to cattle in that country
it was not just this type or aust cattle it how they kill the animals in their country
now what do you do
don't jump up and down run around like chooks with your head cut off
think what should we do not to stop it but to make it to a way we are happy with
they are happy as it is or they would not do it that way.
we want to export they want to eat somewhere there is a middle
and kill here and blast chilling is not going to cut the way
they want it to be live killed
you don't like that then don't sell it to them
what I see here is someone sat in balmain bris perth or melb saying don't sell it then
thats great so if we tax you 20.00 per week each house hold (at say $19 per kg) and we will by the beef and send it to the local poor that helps the farmer and the poor and you pay
how many would throw their hand up to that one
its great to say stop the live trade but someone has to pay
oh and topcropper
because you have one view of the world does not mean that another is in the stone age
nor for that matter does it mean that your view or for that matter the place on this rock is better or more advance then another just because we have advance does not mean we have advanced for the better
alot of the so called third world or under development countries do not have
1 the crime rate we have murder, rape or theift
2 we have people taking billions of dollars in some case more then alot of the net worth of these countries off their bottom lines in losses (is that an advance)
3 we have a so call free market democracy where our government today is disliked by 63% yet holds control even the despots in south africa need a gun to hold power on those numbers but we are to good for that and we
sit back and leave a governement with less the 35% of the people wishing them to stay their govern is that an advanced nation.
barbaric please don't post things thats are good as a one liner but for me look at whats happing here as being barbaric before looking off shore
barbaric
try 50 billion we don't have and telling our kids to pay for it
5 to 10 billion from the cig companies in law suits on the plain packaging which our kids have to pay for
100 mil a week in interest
kevin 07 out to give any amount of money out which my kids then have to cover
and then we can't get rid of them
now thats barbaric
indonchina is not barbaric
you either adjust or don't go
I have read with interest this post and no I did not see the 4 corners show
you seem to have missed some thing and it seems that alot of nation wish to put their views on another nation
this is aust cattle but it not in aust
they are in a country not controlled in any way by aust people
is in cruel maybe but so is extracting bile from bears in china
they cut out the bears balls while its copulating to get the max
or what about rhino horn in africa
what the problem here is not that this happens it that you see it on tv
yes it happens the difference with the others is its not on prime time tv
or on 4 corners
you have cattle having their throuts cut but yet female mutilation does not get any viewing
you wish to solve this problem (and it not a big problem on the list of problems in this rock we live in)to solve it is simple
setup slaughter houses in that country owned and managed by the mla
they charge a fee so run them
you all seem to me be saying
I can sell you my commadore
then friday night I am doing burn outs or wheelies down the center of sydney on 4 corners hitting bins what ever and now I want to control the driver of the car
no you sold me the car.
the same here
you sold the animal it belongs to the buyer
you wanted to look after the animal thats fine
don't sell it
stop the live exports
well stop the export of oil as we have no idea where or what its used for
and as for finance stop that as well.
you where looking at a show of what happens not to aust cattle
but to cattle in that country
it was not just this type or aust cattle it how they kill the animals in their country
now what do you do
don't jump up and down run around like chooks with your head cut off
think what should we do not to stop it but to make it to a way we are happy with
they are happy as it is or they would not do it that way.
we want to export they want to eat somewhere there is a middle
and kill here and blast chilling is not going to cut the way
they want it to be live killed
you don't like that then don't sell it to them
what I see here is someone sat in balmain bris perth or melb saying don't sell it then
thats great so if we tax you 20.00 per week each house hold (at say $19 per kg) and we will by the beef and send it to the local poor that helps the farmer and the poor and you pay
how many would throw their hand up to that one
its great to say stop the live trade but someone has to pay
oh and topcropper
because you have one view of the world does not mean that another is in the stone age
nor for that matter does it mean that your view or for that matter the place on this rock is better or more advance then another just because we have advance does not mean we have advanced for the better
alot of the so called third world or under development countries do not have
1 the crime rate we have murder, rape or theift
2 we have people taking billions of dollars in some case more then alot of the net worth of these countries off their bottom lines in losses (is that an advance)
3 we have a so call free market democracy where our government today is disliked by 63% yet holds control even the despots in south africa need a gun to hold power on those numbers but we are to good for that and we
sit back and leave a governement with less the 35% of the people wishing them to stay their govern is that an advanced nation.
barbaric please don't post things thats are good as a one liner but for me look at whats happing here as being barbaric before looking off shore
barbaric
try 50 billion we don't have and telling our kids to pay for it
5 to 10 billion from the cig companies in law suits on the plain packaging which our kids have to pay for
100 mil a week in interest
kevin 07 out to give any amount of money out which my kids then have to cover
and then we can't get rid of them
now thats barbaric
indonchina is not barbaric
you either adjust or don't go
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Yes mate - watched the whole thing, as noted in my post earlier.
Agreed mate....apparently it's called halal ?? I'm not up to speed with exactly what that means...
Dunno - they are saying that stunning the beast is against halla and the animal must be fully conscious before going the knife.....as I said mate, don't know the ins and outs of halal technicalities - who makes that stuff up ??
Didn't see a compass reading to check the position of Mecca vs where they were in Indonesia. Didn't have it on the video monitor, so I think everyone just takes the word of it - or it was double checked before they built it....they didn't show architectural plans for the shed.
Thanks Belbo - appreciate the kudos
I'm very easy going, so I don't usually jump on my soapbox; but this issue, along with some of the comments being made regarding it, have really fired me up!But Lisa, you already knew.... remember this little chestnut below???
Repechage with a little consistency would be a nice touch
Indifference, Indifference, Indifference. You know, I was just about to go to bed and get an early night (if you can this time of night early), but you just had to go and make another uninformed post, and now I feel compelled to respond again. If you actually go back and read by posts (rather than cutting and pasting my comments), you will see that I have been consistent.
Again, I will repeat that the media did not lead or condition me to care about this issue that you claimed was "how did my steak get to my dinner plate", rather it INFORMED me about the extreme cruelty being inflicted upon cattle in Indonesian abattoirs. Through independent thought, and my concern for animal welfare, I was then able to form my own conclusion that this was a very bad thing, and something should be done about it. As I said earlier, what the media did was bring a hidden case of animal suffering into the public spotlight.
Of course I'm well aware that there are sources other than the media that can inform and educate us on certain issues. Having nearly finished my PhD, published my research in an international journal, and spoken at a number of national and international conferences, I'm well versed on the role that academia plays in informing and educating the public. However, when certain atrocities occur, it is usually the media that plays the role of reporting this to the public in real time.
Knowledge garnered through academic research, while invaluable, is very slow to trickle through into the mainstream. For example, once a paper is accepted by an academic journal, it can take up to three years before it is published. So academics will often use the media to communicate their research before their work is formally published within these journals.
While the media's role is to inform, the researchers role is to understand the phenomenon. So an academic would look to understanding WHY Indonesian abattoir workers inflict such torture on these animals (looking, for example, at the influence of culture, poverty, organisational dynamics, traits, religion and so on).
Oh, and yes, before you respond, I'm aware that other groups, such NGOs, charities, industry representatives, philanthropists, and so on all have a role to play in informing us, but again, they will usually use the media to do this, especially when trying to communicate to a wider audience.
Lastly, yes, there are many people on this forum that are very well informed about various issues and topics, not mentioned in the media. I never claimed otherwise. However, I will state again that it is impossible for one person to know about all the unethical goings on in every industry, in every country and region of this world. Indeed, many of the cattle farmers were completely unaware of the cruelty being inflicted upon their own animals UNTIL Four Corners broadcast the story.
BTW, I do care about animal welfare but in the context of everything else going on in the world, there are by far more important issues to boil the blood... but they aren't on your TV, so you will never really know unless you really care to find out
I do not believe that you do care about animal welfare. If after having watched the videos of these animals dying a horrific death, you comment with:
...I can see that you hold no compassion for these animals at all.
And with that, I am going to bed!
Thanks Lisa.... you took the apple and the hand with it. I must confess, that I baited you... just like the media
It definitely was not intended as a personal tirade, but rather to illustrate how easily a thought process can be drawn to a particular conclusion. I agree with everything you said except those comments at the end of your post... the emotional ones, where logic was swept aside for personal gratification. This is exactly how the media preys on the collective consciousness to evoke an emotive response, rather than rational.
But hey, that's OK, I enjoyed the discourse
They must be conscious? Oh dear..!! I must have missed that.
Yeah, I don't know about this stuff either.
The meat wouldn't be much good from those poor cows. But I suppose not many people in the world hoe into a big slab of rib eye fillet like you and me would. Most people have the meat cut into tiny bits and added to a stew or similar and wouldn't care if it was tough or not, they'd just be happy to have it at all. We certainly are lucky to be living where we do eh?
See ya's.
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